Rankings in a new system

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If you were to create a new martial art, based on your experiences? How would you handle rankings? Would you do them at all, go with a belt system, a level system, or a tiered system(ie: only student/advanced student/instructor/master)?

What would be the best for your own 'style', and what do you think would do the best choice if you were trying to start a profitable school? Why?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you are a Taiji instructor and one of your Taiji students wants you to give him a black belt, what will be your respond?

1. I'm a 10th degree BB in Combat Taiji (I'm the founder of this new Taiji system). I will give you a Taiji BB.
2. I will give you a Taiji BB. But you have to know that I don't have Taiji BB myself.
3. I can't give you a Taiji BB because I don't have Taiji BB myself.

The concern is, if you start a new system, do you just give yourself a 10th degree BB (style founder)?

 

[skribs]

If you were to create a new martial art, based on your experiences? How would you handle rankings? Would you do them at all, go with a belt system, a level system, or a tiered system(ie: only student/advanced student/instructor/master)?

What would be the best for your own 'style', and what do you think would do the best choice if you were trying to start a profitable school? Why?

I would 100% go with a rank system. One which has a lot of ranks early on and fewer as you level up more.

I know there are some people who say that rank isn't important, or that people should focus on skill over rank. But the vast majority of your students are going to want rank. It may not be the most important thing to them, but it will be up there. This is especially true for kids. In fact, one thing I think Kukkiwon TKD and IBJJF BJJ agree on is that kids need a lot of promotions or they'll lose motivation.

One thing my Master explained to me when I first started teaching is that white belts are white belts in attitude as well as technique. So even if rank matters less as you go up, having those early rewards for those that are still learning the culture is a good thing. You don't want to weed out 95% of your students just because they don't meet your vision of what a perfect martial artist should be.

I believe you know from the countless threads I've made on the subject that this is something I've been thinking strongly about. What I've got is a system where the beginner level is white and yellow belt, the intermediate level is green, green & white, blue, blue & white, the advanced level is purple, purple & white, purple & black, red, red & white, red & black, red & 2-black (technically black & red) and then black belt. There's a new form every belt and stripe, new kicks and grappling skills every color, and new striking and self-defense concepts every tier. It's a framework that I think will pace things well for students and be easy for instructors to keep track of. It also means the intermediate level is 2x as long as the beginner level, and the advanced level is ~2x long as the intermediate.

The other question is what to do with folks coming in from outside. I'm figuring out what I believe is the core of my art. I'm doing TKD, and I think people need to be capable of following along with the kicks and forms at their belt level. All of the other stuff is usually school-specific, and I expect 99% of the TKD schools aren't going to teach you the grappling skills that I have. So as long as you're not overwhelmed by the kicks and forms at that belt level, I'm fine with bringing people in at a relative keub level. (For example, if they were a purple belt, but purple is after yellow, then I'll put them at green).

 

[skribs]

@Monkey Turned Wolf on a scale of 1-10, how hypothetical is this thread?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

@Monkey Turned Wolf on a scale of 1-10, how hypothetical is this thread?

1 being I'm currently fleshing out a system and planning to open a dojo, and 10 being purely a hypothetical thought exercise?

I'd say a 7-8. I'm not planning on teaching anytime soon or opening anything, but if I were it'd have to be a hybrid of some sort. I've got experience in too many different arts to be able to faithfully state that I will be teaching X. Or even this class is X, this class is Y. And I'm curious how I would build that out systematically (with no current intent to do so).

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I would 100% go with a rank system. One which has a lot of ranks early on and fewer as you level up more.

I know there are some people who say that rank isn't important, or that people should focus on skill over rank. But the vast majority of your students are going to want rank. It may not be the most important thing to them, but it will be up there. This is especially true for kids. In fact, one thing I think Kukkiwon TKD and IBJJF BJJ agree on is that kids need a lot of promotions or they'll lose motivation.

One thing my Master explained to me when I first started teaching is that white belts are white belts in attitude as well as technique. So even if rank matters less as you go up, having those early rewards for those that are still learning the culture is a good thing. You don't want to weed out 95% of your students just because they don't meet your vision of what a perfect martial artist should be.

I believe you know from the countless threads I've made on the subject that this is something I've been thinking strongly about. What I've got is a system where the beginner level is white and yellow belt, the intermediate level is green, green & white, blue, blue & white, the advanced level is purple, purple & white, purple & black, red, red & white, red & black, red & 2-black (technically black & red) and then black belt. There's a new form every belt and stripe, new kicks and grappling skills every color, and new striking and self-defense concepts every tier. It's a framework that I think will pace things well for students and be easy for instructors to keep track of. It also means the intermediate level is 2x as long as the beginner level, and the advanced level is ~2x long as the intermediate.

The other question is what to do with folks coming in from outside. I'm figuring out what I believe is the core of my art. I'm doing TKD, and I think people need to be capable of following along with the kicks and forms at their belt level. All of the other stuff is usually school-specific, and I expect 99% of the TKD schools aren't going to teach you the grappling skills that I have. So as long as you're not overwhelmed by the kicks and forms at that belt level, I'm fine with bringing people in at a relative keub level. (For example, if they were a purple belt, but purple is after yellow, then I'll put them at green).

With a belt ranking system, how would you handle @Kung Fu Wang 's question? Assuming the new art was Skribs MA (let's say a full on mix of TKD, BJJ and one other art in like 10 years), rather than Skribs TKD. My thought would be that the founder would have a "Founder's belt" which would functionally be the equivalent of the highest rank and allow you to promote while not claiming full on mastery/still being able to grow. Leaping to 10th degree by making your own has always seemed disingenuous to me, and giving someone a rank you haven't earned yet yourself also seems problematic.

 

[Gyakuto]

If you were to create a new martial art, based on your experiences? How would you handle rankings? Would you do them at all, go with a belt system, a level system, or a tiered system(ie: only student/advanced student/instructor/master)?

I’d try my very best to devise unambiguous grading criteria for each rank in particular avoiding terms like ‘demonstrates depth of practise’

The grading examiner’s sheet would have tick boxes to indicate the criteria had been fulfilled and a section for further written explanations.

I’d hold a post-grading examiner’s meeting to discuss the results and alter them if necessary and have two non-examiners randomly selected from the seminar attenders to ensure fair play.

What would be the best for your own 'style',

I don’t understand this.

and what do you think would do the best choice if you were trying to start a profitable school? Why?

Profit should never be factor in promulgating the martial arts at a local level. Covering ongoing costs yes, but the notion of making a profit from the martial arts inevitably leads to corner-cutting, favouring the ‘big payers’ and even the dreaded McDojo.

 

[Gyakuto]

.

 

[HighKick]

If you were to create a new martial art, based on your experiences? How would you handle rankings? Would you do them at all, go with a belt system, a level system, or a tiered system(ie: only student/advanced student/instructor/master)?

What would be the best for your own 'style', and what do you think would do the best choice if you were trying to start a profitable school? Why?

I like to think I have and am always refining our program. We have not changed our original belt system with nine Gup ranks and nine Dan ranks. I have 'automated' the testing process so that the testing board uses tablets to assess the student's performance, and the tester can see the results in real time (after the test is over of course, no phones on the workout floor, no exceptions). After testing, we have a Q&A session with open and honest remarks. I go out of my way to have the board talk to people one on one as well. Yes, we do fail someone if their performance warrants it. This would be a person we pay special attention to post-testing.

Profit. It is too often seen as the devil in MA's discussions. I first have to acknowledge that my situation is different from most since I outright own the property (two strip malls) where our schools are located. But I run them no different from a renter's relationship. If a person wants to operate in a brick and motor building/room, then profit absolutely, positively must be a part of the equation. The curve usually goes something like this: Start out operating at a loss (this is where most schools fail), breaking even (oftentimes mis-interpreted), and operating in the black (this can vary wildly). I think most schools operate in the breaking even category because not all costs of operating are fully weighted.
Since I interpret your 'for profit' query as a school that is standing on its own, paying the bills and then some, I will focus here.
For arguments sake, I will use the terms 'blue collar' and 'white collar' as describing schools. A blue-collar school is in a for-profit business in an average retail area. A white-collar school is a for-profit business that has exclusivity and is more of a private entity. Each type has their positives. I try hard to pull the positives into my business. We do privates, but only for competitors. I am Not into privates with someone who does not want to be part of a regular class.

You will not be selling a product you are selling a service. There are a few legal and ethical differences here, so you need to study up on your area and leverage this for all it is worth.
Kids. I know of SO many schools that are extremely lopsided and kid heavy. This usually results in unhappy instructors and management headaches, and I know of more than a few schools that have failed because of drama or sketchy goings on.
Here is a little secret. I have Never advertised for kids. This is largely because we have had kid's programs in our school system and as a P.E. elective for over 25-years (note this is work Outside the school walls). Once they start coming to class, kids will keep coming to a good program. They are free marketing to get access to the parents/adults. This is where I focus my energy. Think of it as a big, ever-changing wheel that is hard(ish) to get rolling, but once started it is mainly downhill from there.
I have diversified my classes over the years, but it has all stayed within our style(s) and competition. There is a modicum of variance within, but we basically have a kid's class, adult's class, and a competitor's program. Yes, the competitor's program is an additional fee because there are more hours of training involved.
You have to learn the ebb and flow of sports/exercise related service business. There will times of year when people pour into the school (think New Years resolutions) and times when attendance will drop off (think start of school year).
I don't care if a person wants to buy their own uniform or gear, but I do ask that let me have their uniform screen printed. Yes, shameless promotion.
I offer a fully line of equipment and uniforms that I can almost always sell cheaper than our students can buy online because I sell enough and have great vendor relationships. And usually no waiting for delivery. Go Choi Brothers.
To me, the question is what school model do you want to be? To me, there are mainly three models.
1.) The guy who teaches a few friends at the park. All fine and good but does little so spread the knowledge and MA.
2.) The group that meets at the YMCA. Not a bad to start out and get a core group started, but scheduling can be a real hassle.
3.) Brick & mortar Business. This comes with all the trappings of any services related business. No getting around this.

Which one do you want to be?

 

[skribs]

I'd say a 7-8. I'm not planning on teaching anytime soon or opening anything, but if I were it'd have to be a hybrid of some sort. I've got experience in too many different arts to be able to faithfully state that I will be teaching X. Or even this class is X, this class is Y. And I'm curious how I would build that out systematically (with no current intent to do so).

I think my curriculum is 50% TKD, 25% BJJ, and 25% an assortment of other stuff. I'm not going affiliated with any other TKD organization, but there's still enough TKD in it for it to be called that.

The school itself will have "Martial Arts" in the title, but I'm going to describe what I do as Taekwondo. Part of this is (as the OP requested) marketability. People know what "Taekwondo" is, and a general idea of what to expect from it. If I were to come up with the American Striking System, then I invite a lot more questions about whether this new system is just some flash in the pan like Keysi Fighting Method.

The nice thing about using TKD in my case is that as long as I have kicks and forms, I think I can do whatever I want and still call it TKD. Some TKD schools add a lot of punches, some add grappling, some add weapons. It's a lot easier than if I were to call it a kickboxing school and then try to add all the other stuff in.

I think that whatever you do, there needs to be some main plan in what you're doing. What is the primary thing you're teaching? If you just try and teach everything at once, it's going to be very difficult for students to find something to latch onto.

With a belt ranking system, how would you handle @Kung Fu Wang 's question? Assuming the new art was Skribs MA (let's say a full on mix of TKD, BJJ and one other art in like 10 years), rather than Skribs TKD. My thought would be that the founder would have a "Founder's belt" which would functionally be the equivalent of the highest rank and allow you to promote while not claiming full on mastery/still being able to grow. Leaping to 10th degree by making your own has always seemed disingenuous to me, and giving someone a rank you haven't earned yet yourself also seems problematic.

The founder's belt is an interesting idea.

I'd simply go in with my highest rank in whatever other martial art I've got. If that were today, I'd start as a 3rd degree black belt. But I'd make it so that 3rd degree black belt takes longer and means more in my art than it does in TKD. (Something I wouldn't do if I were already 4th or higher). After that, promotion can come from a quorum of my higher ranking students, as needs arise. It does create a bit of a quid-pro-quo system (they promote me so I can promote them), but it at least requires a conspiracy instead of a self-declaration. Requiring a conspiracy is a good measure against fraud.

Another option that I've floated on here is essentially a 3rd-party audit. I would perform my testing material in front of a Taekwondo or Karate Master of at least 2 degrees higher than me, and then get them to certify that the demonstrated skills and knowledge could be that of the next degree. I think someone who's familiar with more than one ways of doing things (i.e. if they trained at an ATA and KKW school, or if they've trained under different Karate organizations), they can tell the difference between purposefully trained alternative versions of a technique vs. bad technique.

For example:

• The way I learned the scissor block is to chamber your arms parallel to the ground, and then cross into the low block and outside block positions.
• The way Kukkiwon teaches the scissor block is to chamber at the shoulder and hip, and then cross into the low block and outside block positions.
• I attended a school where most students had their hands in random positions for the chamber, and didn't even cross their arms through the execution of the technique.
• I've seen online versions of this where you chamber in the opposite hand of the scissor block (essentially doing a double scissor block).

I could look at 3 of these 4 and think "good technique". It might not be the way I would do it, but I could tell it was intentional, purposeful, and that they had put time and effort into making sure their details were correct. I could look at the 3rd way and think "bad technique" because it seems random and sloppy.

 

[O'Malley]

If you are a Taiji instructor and one of your Taiji students wants you to give him a black belt, what will be your respond?

 

[skribs]

I like to think I have and am always refining our program. We have not changed our original belt system with nine Gup ranks and nine Dan ranks.

This is why I'm building my system as a framework instead of a curriculum. In the other schools I've attended, it's been something like: white belts, your kicks are front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick. Yellow belts learn axe kick and step-behind side kick. Green belts learn back kick and hook kick. (And so on).

My system is more: white belts learn body kicks. Yellow belts add in footwork. Green belts learn spinning kicks. Blue belts learn head kicks. Purple learn spinning head kicks. (And so on).

The difference is by categorizing it instead of listing it, I allow the instructor to build lesson plans that focus on certain kicks or all the kicks or approach the concept from a different angle. Maybe the head kicks are axe kicks and crescent kicks. Maybe they're hook kicks. Maybe we take the white belt's body kicks and do them at a head level.

I have 'automated' the testing process so that the testing board uses tablets to assess the student's performance, and the tester can see the results in real time (after the test is over of course, no phones on the workout floor, no exceptions).

I'm going a different direction. I think grading exams works great with a small student-to-judge ratio. But I've been in some tests where I'm judging 8-12 papers and I spend more time looking at the papers (and making sure I'm on the right paper) than I do watching the students.

My testing system is simple: if you break your board, you get your belt. If you fail to break your board, or you are dismissed for poor attitude, technique, or knowledge before your board breaking, you don't get your belt, and you retest in 2 months. Also the caveat that if a student doesn't break a board because the board(s) selected by the judge were too difficult, the judge can pick a new board, but if they fail to break the board because they're simply not following through or not properly aiming then they fail.

Here is a little secret. I have Never advertised for kids. This is largely because we have had kid's programs in our school system and as a P.E. elective for over 25-years (note this is work Outside the school walls). Once they start coming to class, kids will keep coming to a good program. They are free marketing to get access to the parents/adults. This is where I focus my energy. Think of it as a big, ever-changing wheel that is hard(ish) to get rolling, but once started it is mainly downhill from there.

I think it depends on the martial art. An art that is generally focused on the "way of life" like Karate and Taekwondo will usually have a strong kids program. I think arts like BJJ or Muay Thai have some gyms that cater more to competitive adults and others that have a more family-friendly atmosphere, and it may be good to advertise the kids classes in these arts.

 

[windwalker099]

Bruce Lee developed this ranking system...
maybe reflecting a zen type of influence.

1. UNTAMED
2. TAMING BEGUN
3. RESTRAINED
4. TURNING ITS HEAD
5. TAMED
6. UNHINDERED
7. WITH THE CURRENT
8. FORGETTING THE OTHER
9. ALONE IN THE LIGHT
10. BOTH GONE

 

[skribs]

I'd say a 7-8. I'm not planning on teaching anytime soon or opening anything, but if I were it'd have to be a hybrid of some sort. I've got experience in too many different arts to be able to faithfully state that I will be teaching X. Or even this class is X, this class is Y. And I'm curious how I would build that out systematically (with no current intent to do so).

Out of curiosity, what are the arts that you have experience with? What are the ones that would likely have the heaviest influence on your school?

What would be the purpose of your teaching? Sport, self-defense, general physical and mental wellness, or something else? What would be the defining trait or philosophy of your style?

For example, boxing is "knock them out", Taekwondo is generally kicks, Krav Maga is overwhelming aggression, BJJ is beat them on the ground, HKD is to take whatever they attack you with and break that or use it against them, etc.

 

[MuayJitsu]

If I was ever teaching anything then no way would I deal with belts to much hassle to much egos involved easier to just scrap them and focus on the training

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Out of curiosity, what are the arts that you have experience with? What are the ones that would likely have the heaviest influence on your school?

What would be the purpose of your teaching? Sport, self-defense, general physical and mental wellness, or something else? What would be the defining trait or philosophy of your style?

For example, boxing is "knock them out", Taekwondo is generally kicks, Krav Maga is overwhelming aggression, BJJ is beat them on the ground, HKD is to take whatever they attack you with and break that or use it against them, etc.

Multiple styles, but these are the four that I would include if I were to make a system: Shaolin Kempo (A little over 20 years, still self-practice), Kali (5-6 years, my main "current" art), Muay Thai (5-6 years, been about 6 months), and potentially include some things from fencing, but not as a system (high school/college, D1 level for college).

The art itself would be a self-defense art that for the first few "belts" would be pretty much indistinguishable from something like kempo or tkd, but as they get to what might be considered a purple/blue belt, the focus would start to heavily incorporate weapon work, improvised weapons, realistic defense against weapons, situational awareness and de-escalation (de-escalation and situational awareness would be built into the curriculum and tested, if tests were a part of it).

^Keep in mind that's from my thoughts from this week, I have not fleshed anything out.