Rank titles in Kenpo?

[ikenpo]

Agreed,

Mr and Mrs or Ms. isn't a bad way to address everyone in a studio. That way there is a general respect that travels across the board.

jb:asian:

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Les



At a camp recently I met a 6th Degree, whom I have been in contact with by e-mail for some time.
The very first words he said to me were; "Hi, call me Derek"

Then I introduced him to the Orange belt student who was with me. So he said; "Hi, Call me Derek" My student was stunned.

Les

Is this really that big of a deal? My assumption would be that eveyone would give everyone a common level of respect. I agree with calling instructors Mr & Mrs, but I don't think that is that big of a deal. Maybe I've just been exposed to the system for so long that the pecking order feels very natural. As long as respect is given to instructor and student everything is cool.

jb

 

[KenpoDave]

Larry Tatum wrote an article on the rank titles that appeared in (I believe) Black Belt Magazine. I have the article (with his permission) posted on my website.

Dave

 

[Les]

Originally posted by vincefuess

At the time SGM Parker was "assembling" these various aspects of the art, it was important to him give the training sort of a collegiate atmosphere. This served the purpose of seperating AK from the traditional oriental (as it was called then) martial arts in it's methods, as well as add a certain degree of "scholarly class" so they wouldn't be perceived as a bunch of ***-kicking ruffians.

Around this same time, wearing the school patch on the breast of a smart looking sport coat was also the chic, lending a certain air of "fraternity" or "exclusive club" effect. Look at the old pics from the late 60s- anybody who was anybody wore these suits and ties with the "crest-breast" thing.

It was all part of elevating *** kicking to a scholarly and dignified level.

I can remember wearing a Blazer with the Crest on it, meeting Mrs Parker and some of the family off the plane in Jersey, Europe. That was in the early 90's.

I think these days, people go for the jackets with their name and crest on the back. Probably because we don't dress smartly as much as in the "old days"

Les

 

[Les]

Originally posted by tonbo

[

My head instructor actually wants people to call him by his first name when they are on a friendly basis with him. I am, and I still can't bring myself to do it........same goes with the higher rank Black Belts.....can't call them anything but by their "social" titles (Mr, Mrs, etc.).

Peace-- [/B]

At a camp recently I met a 6th Degree, whom I have been in contact with by e-mail for some time.
The very first words he said to me were; "Hi, call me Derek"

Then I introduced him to the Orange belt student who was with me. So he said; "Hi, Call me Derek" My student was stunned.

Les

 

[Les]

Originally posted by jbkenpo

Is this really that big of a deal?

jb [/B]

Actually Jason, it's not a big deal for me. Perhaps I didn't express myself properly, but for my Orange belt student, it was a big deal.

He hasn't been with me long, and is still tuned to the formalities of his previous school. (Perhaps they are more formal than me)

Think back to when you were an Orange belt, how would you have reacted then?

Really, I was just making a comment. No big deal.

Les

"When you drink the water, remember the spring from which it came" Paul Mills

 

[Rich_Hale]

I can clear up one little area of this discussion.

Attached is a photo (close-up) of the signature line of my 2nd Black certificate from Mr. Parker. Note the school code of 1-01-1EPSMA-02.

You can guess what the 1-01-1 is. The EP is Ed Parker, then his title of SMA, or Senior Master of the Art. The 02 is for Santa Monica Studio. Pasadena was 01

 

[nlkenpo]

Hi all,

Just to add my two cents worth:

In our school in the Netherlands all instructors are named by their first name. Some of us have their last name on the Gi, but the students call all of us by first name, including our chief, Professor Hesselmann is called Hans by everybody, including those who come in for their first lesson. The formal titles look good on certificates and maybe sometimes on official letters, but are not to be used when you're amongst friends, which is where I am when I'm teaching Kenpo.

We have even skipped all the formalities that divide instructors and students. The person in front with the big mouth is usually the instructor, so there's no need to wear your beltknot at the side, or for the instructor to wear a different color gi (we all wear black, knot in the middle).

I believe that respect comes from within and is paid by the way people approach me, not by calling me mister or head instructor, nor by wearing their belt at the side.

I listen to Marcel, and I listen to Mr de Jong, but who-ever uses that within our school, I tell them to stop doing that. We're all kenpo-students who are on the same road towards knowledge and skill. Some of us have travelled a bit further up the road than others, but it's still the same road. Therefore there's no need whatsoever for any distance between me and the students.

Nuf said,
Marcel

 

[John Bishop]

Hi all,

Just to add my two cents worth:

In our school in the Netherlands all instructors are named by their first name. Some of us have their last name on the Gi, but the students call all of us by first name, including our chief, Professor Hesselmann is called Hans by everybody, including those who come in for their first lesson. The formal titles look good on certificates and maybe sometimes on official letters, but are not to be used when you're amongst friends, which is where I am when I'm teaching Kenpo.

We have even skipped all the formalities that divide instructors and students. The person in front with the big mouth is usually the instructor, so there's no need to wear your beltknot at the side, or for the instructor to wear a different color gi (we all wear black, knot in the middle).

I believe that respect comes from within and is paid by the way people approach me, not by calling me mister or head instructor, nor by wearing their belt at the side.

I listen to Marcel, and I listen to Mr de Jong, but who-ever uses that within our school, I tell them to stop doing that. We're all kenpo-students who are on the same road towards knowledge and skill. Some of us have travelled a bit further up the road than others, but it's still the same road. Therefore there's no need whatsoever for any distance between me and the students.

Nuf said,
Marcel

Everytime someone decides to change some things around, or not follow the traditions established by the founder of their art, they get farther and farther away from what made their art and their founder special in the first place.
If he were alive today, who here would tell him "I've decided to teach your system ( Ed Parker's American Kenpo), without the traditions you established?

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Everytime someone decides to change some things around, or not follow the traditions established by the founder of their art, they get farther and farther away from what made their art and their founder special in the first place.
If he were alive today, who here would tell him "I've decided to teach your system ( Ed Parker's American Kenpo), without the traditions you established?

I would, but who the hell am I anyway?

 

[gmkuoha]

This is the way Professor Chow had it set up in the 40's-70's.
1st dan-4th dan: Sensei (teacher)
5th-7th dan: Chiefs Low-high chiefs)
8th-9th dan: Professor
10th: Grandmaster (only one should be in the entire system)

In the 70's-present it has changed a bit now.
1st-4th dan: Sensei (teacher)
5th-7th dan: Shihan (master teacher)
8th-9th dan: Professor
10th dan: Grandmaster (only one in the entire system).

Hope this helps,
Grandmaster Kuoha

 

[nlkenpo]

Everytime someone decides to change some things around, or not follow the traditions established by the founder of their art, they get farther and farther away from what made their art and their founder special in the first place.
If he were alive today, who here would tell him "I've decided to teach your system ( Ed Parker's American Kenpo), without the traditions you established?

Without having known the man himself, but having read most of his work, I guess Mr. Parker would have wanted us to adapt anything to the circumstances at hand.

For me there's no reason to think that should only count for self defense techniques. So if in our country the method I descibed works better, than that's what we should do.

Marcel

 

[John Bishop]

Without having known the man himself, but having read most of his work, I guess Mr. Parker would have wanted us to adapt anything to the circumstances at hand.

For me there's no reason to think that should only count for self defense techniques. So if in our country the method I descibed works better, than that's what we should do.

Marcel

I guess it's just a matter of respect for what was passed on to you. And a desire to keep true to the legacy. Maybe if you had known the man, you would understand the reason's why.

 

[nlkenpo]

I guess it's just a matter of respect for what was passed on to you. And a desire to keep true to the legacy. Maybe if you had known the man, you would understand the reason's why.

With all due respect for your point of view, I do understand the reasons why, but that does not mean I should copy what was passed on without thinking about it and adjusting it to our situation. That would hardly be a tribute to this man who spend a lot of his energy into making us think, not copy.

I have a great deal of respect for what was passed on to me, and as long as it's up to me, I'd keep the system as it is, with additions but no changes or deletions. For the traditions, I teach students what the traditions are and how they are to be used, we just don't use them everyday. We actually sometimes use them if foreign instructors visit our school, who appreciate following the traditions in your American way. Out of respect for those instructors we adopt their way of doing things.

In general however, Dutch people don't like anybody else to consider themselves on a higher level, speaking down to us. Especially when you're talking about highly qualified individuals (like most of the people training in our school), they like to be approached from the same level. If you know what you're talking about, the respect will follow soon.
Respect is something you earn, not assume.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the assumption of respect on forehand, earning it afterwards is not good, it just doesn't work in the Netherlands. Here people get suspicious when someone assumes respect by placing himself on a higher level. Then you gotta proof yourself twice (but only to the ones that have not run away because they didn't like the situation to start with). Once to take away the suspicion and again to earn respect.

As well as Mr. Parker did not want us to deny differences between peoples body mechanics, I don't believe he would have wanted us to deny cultural differences.

Regards,
Marcel

 

[John Bishop]

Your right in that I don't know your culture. But if I may ask. Is it this way with all authority figures? Do you call your school teachers, college professors, judges, polititions, fathers, grandparents, etc., by their first names?

 

[nlkenpo]

Your right in that I don't know your culture. But if I may ask. Is it this way with all authority figures? Do you call your school teachers, college professors, judges, polititions, fathers, grandparents, etc., by their first names?

In fact we do sometimes. Although working with children is a different chapter of course, I know there’s a lot of schools where the children call their teachers by first name.


Myself I’m still a University student (part time) and we call almost all of our professors by first name (except the very old ones ;-) ).


With parents it’s different. It needs a little explanation on Dutch language.


In the Dutch language there’s 2 words for “You”, just like in French, German and probably more languages. One is “Jij” which is used when speaking to someone of the same level, the other is “U” to express respect.


The use of “U” to parents and grandparents is considered to be very old fashioned. At least I did never use that. Not many people call their parent by name, most use “Pa” and “Ma”.


The use of “U” towards a judge might be a good idea, because that particular person is actually on a different level than yourself, since he or she is going to decide on your case. Same counts for politicians, although that depends on the party they’re from. The “left-wingers” tend a little more to first names, while the “right-wingers” don’t.

In fact I’m gonna have to stop now since I’ve got a court-hearing this afternoon, and I don’t think an experiment using the fist name of the judge will be in the interest of my client ;-)


Regards,
Marcel

 

[Doc]

At the time SGM Parker was "assembling" these various aspects of the art, it was important to him give the training sort of a collegiate atmosphere. This served the purpose of seperating AK from the traditional oriental (as it was called then) martial arts in it's methods, as well as add a certain degree of "scholarly class" so they wouldn't be perceived as a bunch of ***-kicking ruffians.

Around this same time, wearing the school patch on the breast of a smart looking sport coat was also the chic, lending a certain air of "fraternity" or "exclusive club" effect. Look at the old pics from the late 60s- anybody who was anybody wore these suits and ties with the "crest-breast" thing.

It was all part of elevating *** kicking to a scholarly and dignified level.

Aw man now you've told where I got it from. I mean it is the direction Parker was going in, wasn't it?

 

[Seabrook]

Everytime someone decides to change some things around, or not follow the traditions established by the founder of their art, they get farther and farther away from what made their art and their founder special in the first place.
If he were alive today, who here would tell him "I've decided to teach your system ( Ed Parker's American Kenpo), without the traditions you established?

The colour of the uniform has no impact on your skill level, so I am with Marcel on this one. Same thing with where the belt knot goes....

Just my opinion.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Kenpodoc]

Everytime someone decides to change some things around, or not follow the traditions established by the founder of their art, they get farther and farther away from what made their art and their founder special in the first place.
If he were alive today, who here would tell him "I've decided to teach your system ( Ed Parker's American Kenpo), without the traditions you established?

I would if I changed a tradition. It's always dangerous to mix up the traditions which are core to a culture and those that just fit the historical cultural context. the Taliban tried to enforce a set of rules that they felt were essential to Islam. Others would say that they were enforcing old cultural and historical traditions which were in no way essential to Islam. Judaism, Christianity and every other religion I've encountered has had internal conflict about cultural issues related to time, local culture and individuals.

I'm not at all convinced that uniforms, patches, titles and belt Knots have anything to do with the essence of Mr. Parker's Kenpo, they are just the cultural trappings. American Kenpo looks like americanKenpo whether the participants are wearing Gis, suit and tie, speedos or Darth Vader costumes.(It would be amusing to have a group of star wars geeks in costume and middle earth geeks in costume run a technique line. ).

I didn't know Mr. Parker so I can't honestly say how he would have responded to changes.

Respectfully,

Jeff

 

[Kenpo-Sloth]

I'm not at all convinced that uniforms, patches, titles and belt Knots have anything to do with the essence of Mr. Parker's Kenpo, they are just the cultural trappings.

Hello Sir,

I am only a novice (orange belt), but I think everything in American Kenpo means something, so I personally try to humble myself and follow the traditions and formalities, at least until I understand (which may never happen

) the lessons being taught.

Just a novice student's point of view.