Rank & Time Tables

Greetings,

Bruce maybe we're on the same page after all?

In the 2 curriculums I learned, Doju Ji's and KHF's there were many repeat techniques that are totally unnecessary.

I never counted all the individual techniques but there aren't more than a hundred or so core principles, the rest is all the applications.

A student who knows the core material can discover and create any applications he wishes. That's living breathing Hapkido not sterile and rigid thinking as many unknowingly subscribe to.

Doju Ji feels his system Sin Moo is a core system of Hapkido and whatever direction a master level student takes with it is Ok with him as long as the principles are kept in tact.

That's the greatest attitude of any Master to be so secure with his students and his teachings he does'nt need to pigeon hole his MA.
 
Dear Jeremy:

Actually you are getting me on a "good" day. :partyon:

Seriously, though. Think about this for a second.

For a couple hundred years here in America the "Little Red Schoolhouse" was the backbone of Learning. Higher education was for the elite and was an exclusive club away from the unwashed multitudes. Then along come Dewey and bunch of others and starts codifying the school process and now we have the school system that we do today.

Funakoshi and Itosu did the same for Karate. Kano did the same for Judo. Ueyshiba did the same for Aikido. The Butokukai did the same for Japanese Budo. As far as I can see we are a little overdue in the Hapkido community. And not only don't I CARE if you follow my thinking all the time---- I DON'T WANT you following my thinking all the time. I want you provoked enough to kick in with "..... yeah,,,, but what about this!!!" We already have a very vague kind of uniformity about the Hapkido arts. It shows up all the time. What we don't have are people willing to give it the regard it deserves and that usually falls along those political lines I was talking about. THATS why its important to get the politics out of the closet and sitting at the table for all to see.

The YMK Hapkido material bears a resemblance to what Kevin does. It also bears a resemblance to what YOU do, Jeremy! It also bears a resemblance to Bong Soo Han, Han Jae Ji and Kwang Sik Myungs' material. We keep kidding ourselves that one guy is from across the street and the rest of the Hapkido community is from Mars. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce
 
Questions on cataloging techniques/ requiring dan ranks to know "lower" techniques - do you have a set curriculum for gup ranks? If so how can you not catalog techniques and be responsible for them? How will dan ranks convey your curriculum if they are not responsible for them? When we test you maybe asked for any prior material covered. If you don't know it you don't pass. Happened to me on my brown belt test, knew all the brown belt material but spaced on the blue belt material.

Brian
 
Dear Brian:

The hysterical thing is, I told my Level 2-s exactly that same thing. When they had succeeded and past their test I told them when they would test for their Level Three (Blue Belt) the majority of points lost would NOT be on the Yellow or Level Two material. Rather, the most points lost, and their possible failure would be on the Level ONE material which is typically ignored by gueppies in their excitement to learn the New Stuff. Wanna hear something funny?

At Monday nights class I paired a Level Two with a Level One who wanted a pre-test on some wrist techniques. Expectedly the Level One fumbled around a bit----- but so did the Level Two. After class he made a recommitment to giving a bit more attention to both Level Two AND Level One.

Students; ya gotta love 'em!!

Best Wishes,

Bruce
 
I tried to stay out of this but after two cups of Starbucks coffee I want to add my 2 cents for arguments sake and to address a major problem

But there seems to be a major problem in what is happening in Hapkido as far as testing goes " No Camp is without Problems" but this goes a lot deeper than that, rank is no longer respected and rightfully so in some cases loyalty to your Master is frowned upon, it is no longer important in the chase for the next dan.

My Master is well known in korea and was an early Student Of Ji,Han Jae from Sung Moo Kwan he was promoted to 7th dan in 1971 during the early days of the KHA. After training in Japan with the aikido people as part of a KHA friendship exchange which often sends a team to my Masters Dojang (chun-Do-Kwan). He and other fellow Masters were embarrassed by the rank that some of them held at such an early age. In protest he refused a promotion for 27 years he is now an eighth dan under the KHF. And is very well respected he is one of the founding members, and is old school trained.

Picture the look on his face when several years ago when there was an attempt in Korea to unify all of Hapkido, and a group of Master's from around the world showed up 5 of them non-korean under the age of 42 were his rank with less than 10 years of Hapkido experience. When he asked one of these so called seminar masters at the meeting they stated their rank 9th dan. His response was the best I have ever heard "Oh, you 9th Dan 9 years I 40 dan 40 years" then got up bowed and walked out of the meeting.

To quote J.R West " anything that is acquired easy is given easy " I can only give an example and an observation of what i have witnessed over the years.

When I Test ANY STUDENT of mine or my students students you are required to show all you know including previous Belts material. You may ask why ? Plain and simple as you progress through the Rank system the techniques from the earlier ranks become more polished with more practice time, unless they are not practiced it is also a way for you to observe how the rough edges smoothed out during the time they took to perfect what they had already learned.

Most if not all students will have their Favorite techniques we all do, These are usually the first there or four you will automatically perform without any given thought (because they have become second nature) these are usually done first. I have proved this time and time again through my 28 years of teaching. And have some very impressive Black Belts.

Now lets say You require only a few techniques, Yes they most defiantly will be your most effective, but on the other hand if you try to pick and choose what technique should be someone's favorite technique we are creating ROBOTS we all have different bodies and likes and dislikes. If the student is given more choices they are most likely to find their own particular techniques that suit their own physical limitations.

Should there be time in grade ? most definitely you mean to tell me some 20 something 9th dan has contributed and dedicated himself more than someone who has dedicated his entire life ? No way... Would you rather take the advise of someone who took as many shortcuts as possible to get where they are ? I think not at what point do we step back and look at the big picture ?

Lets take a serious hard look on what is happening with this. I had a FORMER Student whom was a first dan, Attended a seminar and 10 Days later he is a fourth dan not bad for about 5 years of Hapkido. he does not teach (he brown noses) last I heard he outranks me....But boy can he talk Hapkido just ask him.

Lets look at long term effects on what is happening with this, it cheapens the rank, and does not consider after a certain point in age Mother nature gets even with you for every Flip Fall every spin Kick you feel it. So how can one judge the higher ranks at the level we judge a YOUNG first or second Dan yes, they will be faster , More limber and they bounce up faster off the mat..

Yes we all have core techniques that are the mostly the same some small variations but the same. Will I reduce what I require ? No way For those looking for shortcuts go some place else I am sure they can find someone willing to promote them once the check clears. Everyone of My Black Belts knows somewhere around 400 techniques at first Dan this does not include kicks that is separate.

You can ask anyone that has ever tested under me it is and can be done.

Hal Whalen
Chun-Do-Kwan
 
Greetings,

Hal

I agree with most of what you said, including making sure the previous techniques are improved on and not giving some one with 5 yrs in HKD a 4th dan etc.

Your teacher was a 7th dan from Ji at what age?

My teacher Master Son was a 6th Dan at 32, KHA Ji was president at the time same as yours, he made a 6th dan in 16 years starting hapkido when he was 16 yrs old thats an average of 1 dan every 2.5 years not that long not to short either agreed!

Also the KHF, KHA only spot checked lower grades techniques during testing not making the student do everything from the begining. At least thats how I was always tested.

My real main point is many instructors now a days set very ridig standards they never had to go through themselves and I think it's for ego, money, control of students, etc!

Doju Ji says in Korea it wasn't like that nor was it with your or my intructor why should it be like that now?
 
American HKD said:
My real main point is many instructors now a days set very ridig standards they never had to go through and I think it's for ego, money, control of students, etc!

Doju Ji says in Korea it wasn't like that with your or my intructor why should it be like that now?
Click to expand...

Ok, Stuart but now you are going too far the OTHER way. I have seen some exchanges on DOCHANG DIGEST and other places about people wanting their students to do all sorts of extraordinary things including tests that last a couple of days, say, over a weekend. Can't see it myself. To me the idea is to present a person with a challenge by which he solves problems using the skills he has learned. The newest material gets the closest scrutiny with diminishing percentages after that. I mean, lets say I hold a person testing for 2nd Dan accountable for 100% of each of the previous ranks hes' held. What would be the point? Is there something special he gets for putting up with a needlessly difficult test?

Now having said that, lets go back to Dojunim Jis' comment. The reason tests should be challenging and perhaps more challenging now than before is that by making them a bit more challenging we can learn what parts of the test actually measure skills and ability and what parts are actually just a pain in the butt. For instance, in the kwan I belong to we have 5 hyung. What if I start making my students test by doing all hyung 5 times each. And this proves what to me? That I can make them jump through hoops to get that paper? Can't see it. Tought tests for the sake of tough tests is like learning dozens of exotic variations on techniques for the sake of learning exotic variations. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
 
American HKD said:
Greetings,

Also the KHF, KHA only spot checked lower grades techniques during testing not making the student do everything from the begining. At least thats how I was always tested.

My real main point is many instructors now a days set very ridig standards they never had to go through themselves and I think it's for ego, money, control of students, etc!

Doju Ji says in Korea it wasn't like that nor was it with your or my intructor why should it be like that now?
Click to expand...

Well where Do i start When I tested for 1st Dan there were two tests one was the at Kwan level or as they used to call it club black belt you had to perform every technique each side. At a test Held At the Kwan headquaters. Then when the KHA held its dan testing you had a partner from a different dojang that was also testing the head of test board would call out random areas and you had to then demonstrate the number of Techniques required.

My second and third dan test's were different they were held in the dojang and i was required to do every technique i knew at each level.

As far as doing it for the money you do not me or you would never state that i charge $25 over the cost of the test fee and on more than one occasion i have paid for the test myself because they could not afford it. It does not keep me in coffee.

What happens is some people by nature will only do what they need to get by and that is fine it is in their nature others will try an justify why they do not.

On the other hand when you are exhausted and when you think you have reached your limit you reach inside to find out you have what it takes and it gets you threw it.

Ask mike T he has been to several of my tests I HAVE NEVER MADE THEM DO ANYTHING I DID NOT DO.

Hope this clears up any misconceptions.

Hal Whalen
 
whalen said:
Well where Do i start When I tested for 1st Dan there were two tests one was the at Kwan level or as they used to call it club black belt you had to perform every technique each side. At a test Held At the Kwan headquaters. Then when the KHA held its dan testing you had a partner from a different dojang that was also testing the head of test board would call out random areas and you had to then demonstrate the number of Techniques required.

My second and third dan test's were different they were held in the dojang and i was required to do every technique i knew at each level.

As far as doing it for the money you do not me or you would never state that i charge $25 over the cost of the test fee and on more than one occasion i have paid for the test myself because they could not afford it. It does not keep me in coffee.

What happens is some people by nature will only do what they need to get by and that is fine it is in their nature others will try an justify why they do not.

On the other hand when you are exhausted and when you think you have reached your limit you reach inside to find out you have what it takes and it gets you threw it.

Ask mike T he has been to several of my tests I HAVE NEVER MADE THEM DO ANYTHING I DID NOT DO.

Hope this clears up any misconceptions.

Hal Whalen
Click to expand...
Hal

I didn't mean you specifically.

I'm talking from my expirience with commercial school owners who need to make a living from MA or Instructors who just make it unrealistically hard to purposely keep the student at a lower dan level.

BTW all my tests were from white belt on were done as follows:

1. Do all techniques for the belt your going for i.e. 2nd gup, 1 gup, 1st dan etc.

2. Do several techniques of choice from all previous grades mainly as you said to show your improvement. That's not to say my an Instructor didn't ask you to do specific techniques that he wanted to see or check out.

I never met anyone who did everything from all previous grades for a test but am sure there some who do and that's thier business.

Anyway what do you think about time in grade?
I think 2 years between dan levels is more than enough time if you practice.

Ji Han Jae trained 7 years with Choi and was 3rd dan.

I really think this minimum time in grade is un realistic and it depends on how good you are nothing else.

Hal

Please explain from your expirience in Korea time in rank from 30 years ago probably much shorter than 10 years maybe a bit longer until now very long.

Why is there a trend like that in your opinion?
 
American HKD said:
Hal


I really think this minimum time in grade is un realistic and it depends on how good you are nothing else.

Hal

Please explain from your expirience in Korea time in rank from 30 years ago probably much shorter than 10 years maybe a bit longer until now very long.

Why is there a trend like that in your opinion?
Click to expand...

When i trained in Korea 28 years ago (my first time ) It was 1 year between 1-2 , 18 months between 2-3 , 3 years between 3-4, 4 years between 4-5 .After that i never asked because I went further than my original plan or goal.

Now if this does go through two years between ranks can us old timers like bruce and myself recieve retroactive promotions ? Just kidding....

Stu,

What seems to happen is that people try and justify the ranks they have if they are earned fast . Either by the guy that issues them or the people that recieve them , How many 7-8 dans are out there that just attended seminars and maybe a week here or there ?That own dojangs but do not even teach Hapkido.

This was A MAJOR stumbling block when they tried to unite Hapkido in Korea. There were more 8-9 Dans with very little training that would now become seniors to those that had well over 35-40 years teaching Hapkido.

these people would be making the policy for a new organization it scared them especially where they had the Rank but not the skill or the leadership skills that they would expect from that position.

Not that i am one to talk about people skills or leadership traits, all i wanted to do when i grew up was teach hapkido, Now having done that for almost 30 years I am waiting to grow-up......

Hal
 
whalen said:
When i trained in Korea 28 years ago (my first time ) It was 1 year between 1-2 , 18 months between 2-3 , 3 years between 3-4, 4 years between 4-5 .After that i never asked because I went further than my original plan or goal.

Now if this does go through two years between ranks can us old timers like bruce and myself recieve retroactive promotions ? Just kidding....

Stu,

What seems to happen is that people try and justify the ranks they have if they are earned fast . Either by the guy that issues them or the people that recieve them , How many 7-8 dans are out there that just attended seminars and maybe a week here or there ?That own dojangs but do not even teach Hapkido.

This was A MAJOR stumbling block when they tried to unite Hapkido in Korea. There were more 8-9 Dans with very little training that would now become seniors to those that had well over 35-40 years teaching Hapkido.

these people would be making the policy for a new organization it scared them especially where they had the Rank but not the skill or the leadership skills that they would expect from that position.

Not that i am one to talk about people skills or leadership traits, all i wanted to do when i grew up was teach hapkido, Now having done that for almost 30 years I am waiting to grow-up......

Hal
Click to expand...
Hal

That's what used to make me upset when I left Master Son's school and started training with others 4th, 5th dan and I was way better then them at a 2nd & 3rd Dan.

But you can't go the totally go the opposite way and restrict the good Hapkidoin from getting the rank they deserve in a timely manor.
 
American HKD said:
Hal

That's what used to make me upset when I left Master Son's school and started training with others 4th, 5th dan and I was way better then them at a 2nd & 3rd Dan.

But you can't go the totally go the opposite way and restrict the good Hapkidoin from getting the rank they deserve in a timely manor.
Click to expand...

Now is this about skill ? Recognition ? They were promoted to fast You would rather be a second Dan That people say WOW,,, When they see you move or do your Hapkido.

Or would you rather have them say "what the F####." And be embarrassed and have your Masters more ashamed than proud ?

I was a 5th dan before Pelligrini stared Hapkido 10 years later he was an 8th and i made sixth.

Did it bother me oh yeah at first . But technique skill I surpass he wildest dreams i am more respected in the Hapkido World (so I would Like To believe).

I have never been an embarrassment to My Masters or the Kwan i belong too. i never chased the Dollar even though I could use the money Honor, respect, Integrity are worth more than anything.

Here is something you should think about : " You are either part of the Problem or part of the solution"

Hal whalen
 
whalen said:
Now is this about skill ? Recognition ? They were promoted to fast You would rather be a second Dan That people say WOW,,, When they see you move or do your Hapkido.

Or would you rather have them say "what the F####." And be embarrassed and have your Masters more ashamed than proud ?

I was a 5th dan before Pelligrini stared Hapkido 10 years later he was an 8th and i made sixth.

Did it bother me oh yeah at first . But technique skill I surpass he wildest dreams i am more respected in the Hapkido World (so I would Like To believe).

I have never been an embarrassment to My Masters or the Kwan i belong too. i never chased the Dollar even though I could use the money Honor, respect, Integrity are worth more than anything.

Here is something you should think about : " You are either part of the Problem or part of the solution"

Hal whalen
Click to expand...
For me it wasn't about ego I felt I worked hard for many years didn't have high rank and really didn't care, but when people with a 2,3,4 dans a head of me were not as good I felt I should have that rank too. But that's on the personal side of this issue.

People should get the rank they deserve in a timely manor that's all.
 
American HKD said:
For me it wasn't about ego I felt I worked hard for many years didn't have high rank and really didn't care, but when people with a 2,3,4 dans a head of me were not as good I felt I should have that rank too. But that's on the personal side of this issue.

People should get the rank they deserve in a timely manor that's all.
Click to expand...
Of course we can understand what it is like to be ranked lower than a person who is not as good as you. I think everyone who cares more about skills than rank can understand (and I bet everyone has stories of their own on this issue.)

Consider this personal issue you have to be part of your training. Do you:
A. Let this injustice continue to make you angry.
B. Decide to yourself that you are going to be the best damn 3rd degree the world has ever seen.
C. Ignore rank and focus on the training.
 
SmellyMonkey said:
Of course we can understand what it is like to be ranked lower than a person who is not as good as you. I think everyone who cares more about skills than rank can understand (and I bet everyone has stories of their own on this issue.)

Consider this personal issue you have to be part of your training. Do you:
A. Let this injustice continue to make you angry.
B. Decide to yourself that you are going to be the best damn 3rd degree the world has ever seen.
C. Ignore rank and focus on the training.
Click to expand...

Time heals all things and eventually all thing work out.

If your have good skills every one will see it.

But the fact is everyone has different standards that won't change, so the moral is be the best you can be that's it.
 
I could be missing something, in which case I apologize for butting in.

Is what I am hearing a resistance TO having a time-in-grade requirement, or is it just the prescribed length. What I am asking is are people in this discussion saying that there should be no time-in-grade requirement at all or perhaps only a very short one--- say, one year?

Sorry I have read all of these posts at least twice and I can't exactly determine what is being put forward here. Help.

Best Wishes,

Bruce
 
Bruce,
That is the way I took it they are saying 2 years max time in grade. I am not sure if this would work.

Also what they failed to relies in korea Class is six Days a week NO EXCUSE .......Or you are gone Master Yu's is three hours

Average American twice a week or maybe three times ? Here you have it they train twice as much as we do in a given week ?

Hal
 
Yes, and I see this as a real hinderance to reconciling the time in grade thing. (BTW I stand solidly behind time in grade.) I know from the previous response that most people think the YMK Hapkido approach is a bit extreme, but your point is pretty valid. When I trained with Dojunim Kim in September it was twice a day for 2-3 hours a session. Here in the States I teach three classes a week at 2 hours a piece and then an hour of sword. So a typical week in Korea for me was about say 28 hours of training. A typical week here in the States is say 7. We are talking a difference of 4x as much training in Korea or looking at it the other way only 25% training here in the States. (Now for the sake of arguement I am putting to one side my own training research which is in a bit different category. I'm trying to keep this as clean as possible.)

My conclusion is that if a guy says he has THREE years time in grade here in the States I immediately think of my own situation and tabulate 7 hours a week or 364 hours/year for a total of 1092 hours per time in grade. But if that same person says they only have TWO years time in grade while studying at a traditional kwan in Korea we could be talking about 2912 hours per time in grade.A year less and almost three times as much mat time. And whose to say that a guy in America (or Korea) doesn't take a week off now and then?

For my gueppies I keep careful eye on their mat hours. Once a person makes BB I suspect they have some level of dedication and integrity, but I don't know that we can always count on this. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce
 
Greetings,

I don't mind time in grade. But I whole heartedly dis-agree with an "inflated" lenght of unrealistic time based on nothing designed for the sole purpose of holding people back from grade.

A reasonable lenght of time needed to aquire the nessarsary skills. I think two years between Dan levels should act as a minimum and the rest is up to the person and the instructor.

Example:
Two years minimum time in grade and the rest is up to the instructor if the persons qualified to test or not.
Don't just pick a number based on nothing to make someone wait.

Clear yet?
 
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