Rage - source of strength or weakness?

[7starmantis]

Oh, that's interesting, because I don't recall saying any such thing.

I rely on myself. The totality of what I am capable of by virtue of my innate survival instinct and rigorous, scenario-based training. I suppose that doesn't answer your question. Specifically, I rely on gross-motor movements, which are accessible regardless of emotional state... we found it, over time, to not be as useful as other approaches. Which answers your earlier remarks. "...yet they are energy sensitive?" No. We don't do that stuff anymore.

LMAO! Who said anything about complete and correct martial arts? I thought we were talking about whether or not it is a source of strength in the event of a counterassault!

I appologize, if what you are saying is that you spend your time and energy, all your experience and trial and error on finding the most incorrect techniques, I misunderstood you completely.

What my point was (as I'm sure you allready understand) is that without decision making, fine and complex motor skills, rational, and even control, what strengths do you receive? Could you list me strengths that rage bestows upon you?

7sm

 

[Black Bear]

You are good at using the quote function, but not at propositional logic. How does that in any way relate to "Your using an ill founded generalization to say that because you have fought while inraged and became successful that rage is good for fighting."

Until you start making sense... see you elsewhere. The contents of this thread speak for themselves for anyone reading.

 

[7starmantis]

So I guess a list of strengths that rage provides a fighter is out of the question?


7sm

 

[Black Bear]

Margaritas ante porcos? I think not.

 

[loki09789]

strength comes with self control and general tranquility, not rage

I hate to sound new agey, but this sounds a lot like the message in the Star Wars movies as well. The point of this reference (other than to expose my geek status) is that within the analogy, the greater strength over time comes as you have described. The strength of rage may be faster to come, but it isn't as controlled and is definitely can be more costly when it is unleashed.

Hit a guy because your defending yourself with angerless agression or righteous indignation and you are 'defending yourself and have a better shot at stopping when it is time.

Hit a guy because you are enraged, and you run the risk of excessive force, not stopping, sounding like a fool when the cops interview you.... consequences galore

Paul M

 

[elcajon555]

Anger and rage are never a good thing. All negative emotions even if used to your precieved advantage aren;t good. Nothing good can come out of using negative things. And while training, one of the biggest things people try to accomblish is how to fight smart, not just a brawl, and they way to smart fight is with your head and training and not emotion of any type. People must learn to fight without emotion and to fight with skill and knowledge otherwise it would be like fighting with no training in a street brawl, and we are certainly above that type of fighting.

 

[Athena]

I don't agree, in fighting there is no place for emotion. To say that they are human experiences and thus be a part of fighting is to imply that humans are made for fighting and we all know that is not the case. If we were, we wouldn't have to train so hard, man I wish that was the case!

I don't base my philosophies on Bruce Lee, but he summed it up good again in this quote: "The knowledge and skills you have achieved are meant to be forgotten so you can float comfortably in emptiness, without obstruction.

The great mistake is to anticipate the outcome of the engagement; you ought not to be thinking of whether it ends in victory or defeat. Let nature take it's course, and your tools will strike at the right moment.

JMO,
7sm

I don't think "emotion" and "predicting the end result" are the same thing at all. Bruce Lee doesn't really apply to your theory. To say that there is no room for emotion is illogical... ideally there may be none, but realistically there is always emotion. What else would motivate you to win the fight?

You talked about coming across a rape victim and that it was "all business, no emotion," which makes you sound inhuman. Maybe you can't empathize... maybe you've never felt weak to the point of helplessness? Maybe you've never been so severly humiliated? Maybe you've never been VIOLATED like that. Rape is tricky because oftentimes the victims feel ashamed about what happened. I could be completely wrong here and generalizing way too much, but most men haven't encountered that. Men are stronger than women. Period. I've felt overpowered... it's not a good feeling, and I've never even been sexually assaulted. If I saw a woman being raped, my natural emotion would be anger. Not blind rage, but I can guarantee my first thought would be "Who the hell does that sickf*** think he is!?" Even if I wanted to think along the lines of "Alrighty, here we go... business time," I wouldn't be able to. And I don't think it's because I'm mentally weak.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

When it comes to self-defence, does rage help? I often wonder this because an absolute pure rage makes you have the kind of advantages of being drunk (not feeling the pain of hits) but without the discoordination and slow reaction times. It also I think enables you to hit far more powerfully than usual. I question whether it does slow you down slightly though because a clear relaxed mind usually makes me personally much quicker.

thoughts...

d

I've had it work for me, and against me. Had occasions where I went visually black/red, and don't remember a thing, only to "come to" over a downed opponent, with witnesses rerlating some really cool stuff I wish I could remember, and have had other times where losing my cool and NOT seeing red, I've just been stupid and unable to find my training. Have been cool, calm, and a little annoyed at my most dangerous, but have done some things in that state I wish I could take back. Think there's an argument there for 2 differrent camps:

1. Rigorous training embeds into the deeper mind, and will takes over when we're lost;
or
2. Anger blocks cognition, and the mind...as the most powerful weapon we have...is the most necessary element to have present in combat.

 

[7starmantis]

I don't think "emotion" and "predicting the end result" are the same thing at all. Bruce Lee doesn't really apply to your theory. To say that there is no room for emotion is illogical... ideally there may be none, but realistically there is always emotion. What else would motivate you to win the fight?

You talked about coming across a rape victim and that it was "all business, no emotion," which makes you sound inhuman. Maybe you can't empathize... maybe you've never felt weak to the point of helplessness? Maybe you've never been so severly humiliated? Maybe you've never been VIOLATED like that. Rape is tricky because oftentimes the victims feel ashamed about what happened. I could be completely wrong here and generalizing way too much, but most men haven't encountered that. Men are stronger than women. Period. I've felt overpowered... it's not a good feeling, and I've never even been sexually assaulted. If I saw a woman being raped, my natural emotion would be anger. Not blind rage, but I can guarantee my first thought would be "Who the hell does that sickf*** think he is!?" Even if I wanted to think along the lines of "Alrighty, here we go... business time," I wouldn't be able to. And I don't think it's because I'm mentally weak.

I never said emotion and "predicting the outcome" are the same thing, but one is accompanied by the other normally. Illogical would be to assume that some type of emotion causeing you to loose control of yourself can be a benefit when defending against a skilled opponent for your life.

The rape scenario is hard to understand by people who have never been through intense training for, or had years of experience with life and death scenarios or decisions. As a paramedic you understand and addresss each situation. What needs to be done, in what order does it need to be done in, and what will make it most possible for both yourself and the victim to survive. I've felt overpowered before, but its not something I'm willing to let anyone make me feel again. If you don't address each situation absent from what your anger or rage would have you do, you can make some big mistakes in judgement that could result in loss of life, limb, or property.

7sm

 

[Shu2jack]

I haven't read the entire thread due to length and time, but I think it is possible to eliminate emotion when it comes to life and death. Once I had a drunk come to me with a knife and wanting to fight so he can show me how worthless my martial art training was. :idunno:

Long story short, the entire episode between talk, action, and aftermath I
did not feel emotion. No fear, hate, rage, anger, nothing. That isn't to say I didn't feel anything. I felt a "pit" in my stomach and I felt "ready". The only thing going through my mind was, "Somebody (me or him) is going to the hospital." Followed by being aware of my surroundings and thinking of the best way to fight in the situation.

Just because you don't have emotion does not mean you lose the desire to live. Just means that it allows logic and common sense to be your guide. The desire to live didn't enter my brain. I had a situation. I had to settle the situation one way or the other.

Rage in that situation would've probably proved fatal (for me). Dispite the strength advantage, it makes you stupid. My grandpa always taught me to piss people off. That way they make mistakes.

Anger can lead to hasty decisions and causes you to tense up, which leads to fighting your own body when you move.

Stubborn Determination is the best way in my opinion.

 

[clapping_tiger]

I don't know if we're meaning slightly different things by rage. I don't THINK so, but it's a possibility. The emphasis on the settled mind is precisely one of the reasons I dislike certain arts as methodologies for self-defense. Suppose you get home one day and find the babysitter tied and gagged on the couch, and some whackjob about to screw your kid, who's tied to the table. I don't think you're going to be like a wooden doll, or responding like an echo. I think you will be a tad bit off kilter, and I think that intensity will give you a good impetus while you disable the guy. The sort of gross-motor stuff that some systems emphasize are resilient and robust to mental and emotional states (primarily it's anger and fear with which we concern ourselves in the combat context), which is an important asset. To blitzkrieg, straightblast, blender, Belfort-blast, or shredderize an assailant with intensity is the most natural thing in the world! Rage is by no means inimical to skillful and effective fighting! But then, imagine doing certain classical stuff with "intensity" or "rage", say a jump spinning kick, irimi into sankyo, or a complex silat takedown. That is indeed preposterous. If you have a look at the Laur article I posted on the FMJL thread, you'll have a clear idea of the train of thought underlying this.

I agree 100%. Well said.

When I was thinking about what would put me into a true rage. It would be someone doing harm to either my wife, or kids. I think at times, some people confuse rage with anger and/or frustration. But as much as rage could hurt you in a fight, mentally it can help you. If you were faced with a life or death situation, most of us cringe at the gruesome thought of taking someone's life. But what if you were in a situation where you come in and someone has a knife to your child’s throat and is about to/or in the middle of raping them, your wife is bleeding on the floor. The blind rage that you would go into would put only one thought into your mind, kill that SOB and save my family. You would not be processing what horrible sight you have just come across, and what wicked job you are doing to this sicko. And if you are lucky, maybe not even remember what you did - except knowing that you just saved your family's life. I don't care if you've had 100 years of training, nothing can prepare you for killing someone. I think your mind and body will always do what’s best to protect you, and I think that is what rage is. If you want to really learn about what you would go through if you had to kill someone, I suggest you read the book (Black Bear, I think you would love this book) - On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. One of the best analogies in the book is it says that all the tough macho people walking around saying "I would kill someone if they"........or "I would have no problem killing someone if they broke into my house" is like a bunch of virgins talking about what sex is like. Here is an excerpt from the back of the book.

"On Killing is an important study of the techniques the military uses to overcome the powerful reluctance to kill, of how killing affects the soldier, and the societal implications of escalating violence"

Some may think this is a little off topic but the book does discuss a lot in depth about a lot of stuff that has been said in this thread.

 

[7starmantis]

Honestly, I agree with you to the point that there is nothing that would enrage me more than seeing something being done to my family or loved ones. However, the problem with rage is that many times like you said " the only thing on your mine is killing that SOB". Well, that may just put you in prison and what good did that do your family? Rage is a loss of control because of emotion. Any loss of control can be dangerous. Rage, in its true deffinition is linked to insantity, this shows the uncontroled emotion of it. It is also linked with violence thus showing the nature of it. 1 a : violent and uncontrolled anger b : a fit of violent wrath c archaic : [size=-1]INSANITY - Merriam-Webster[/size]


I think we disagree in that I believe a completly sound and rational mind would protect your family even more so as you could stop yourself from killing him thus leaving your family for prison also you could disable him and have the state of mind to return to your family and tend to their wounds or call for help in a timely fashion. I've seen lots of death by many different devices and I can tell you there is not room for emotion especially rage when attempting to save one of those lives. Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying dont kill him if that is called for, but then saying, "I will kill that SOB regardless" kind of fits into the analogy from your book refrence.

7sm

 

[clapping_tiger]

Honestly, I agree with you to the point that there is nothing that would enrage me more than seeing something being done to my family or loved ones. However, the problem with rage is that many times like you said " the only thing on your mine is killing that SOB". Well, that may just put you in prison and what good did that do your family? Rage is a loss of control because of emotion. Any loss of control can be dangerous. Rage, in its true deffinition is linked to insantity, this shows the uncontroled emotion of it. It is also linked with violence thus showing the nature of it. 1 a : violent and uncontrolled anger b : a fit of violent wrath c archaic : [size=-1]INSANITY - Merriam-Webster[/size]


I think we disagree in that I believe a completly sound and rational mind would protect your family even more so as you could stop yourself from killing him thus leaving your family for prison also you could disable him and have the state of mind to return to your family and tend to their wounds or call for help in a timely fashion. I've seen lots of death by many different devices and I can tell you there is not room for emotion especially rage when attempting to save one of those lives. Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying dont kill him if that is called for, but then saying, "I will kill that SOB regardless" kind of fits into the analogy from your book refrence.

7sm

Very true. Good point.

 

[Marginal]

This thread seems to have degraded to a argument over semanitcs. One side says "You should be calm/relaxed/detatched in all situations." The other says "People have emotions like it or not."

It's not clear whether or not people are disagreeing. So I'll launch into an anecdote...

Last summer, I went with a friend and two aquiantences on a road trip. Once there, the aquiantences proved to be jerks, culminating in them attempting to steal over $300 worth of electronics equipment from the guy who's hosted us during our stay. (In their minds, they were getting revenge because the guy wanted $10 per houseguest.)

My friend and I demanded that they return the stolen property. They decided to threaten to kick us out of the car if we didn't go with their decision. I took the stolen stuff, and exited. My friend followed suit. We walked away with the car doors still open and the two were just sitting there in the middle of the street in apparent shock. The stuff was returned, and a day later we returned to CO via Greyhound.

I didn't have much emotional attachment to the people involved. I was mainly angry that they'd decided to stick us with such an classless act and that they gave us so little credit that they thought they'd have us cornered just because they owned the car.

I didn't threaten them, I didn't rage at them, or attack them. I simply left and gutted their "victory". I spent the morning trying to find my bearings in a strange neighborhood and calming my friend down. (Not really doable since he'd considered them both to be his friends and he was feeling very betrayed etc.)

If they'd gotten out of the car and tried to stop us from leaving, I would've torn into 'em, (I probably outweigh 'em both, and one's never been in a fight in his life) but as it was, I wouldn't describe my mood as angry much less a rage. I get torqued off real fast now thinking about it, but at the time, it was an inconvenience. Call it shock or whatever, but I felt very removed from the drama. (On top of that, Greyhound was the cheaper option vs covering gas costs.)

The two times I've been physically attacked, I wasn't angry. I was feeling the same sensation of insulation and removal as I was in the aforementioned incident. I get mad thinking about what happened in each case now, but at the time I couldn't have been harnessing rage because I just wasn't feeling the emotion. Harnessing disbelief just doesn't sound cool.

I don't really beleive that anger can be removed from the equation whether it's present in force or deferred, it's still going to be there. I don't need to be angry to hit the bag, spar etc so I can't beleive that it's a vital emotion to be searching out during a fight either.

All that said, it's certainly possible to moderate your reaction to any given emotion. People have emotions, they aren't ruled by them. I tend to temper impulses that'd otherwise lead to angry outbursts since I haven't found them to be constructive. Guess my roundabout point is, remaining calm doesn't mean you're not potentially seething mentally. It just means you're still rational and thinking.

 

[7starmantis]

All that said, it's certainly possible to moderate your reaction to any given emotion. People have emotions, they aren't ruled by them. I tend to temper impulses that'd otherwise lead to angry outbursts since I haven't found them to be constructive. Guess my roundabout point is, remaining calm doesn't mean you're not potentially seething mentally. It just means you're still rational and thinking.

Thats a good point, remaining calm doesn't mean your not angry. Rage on the other hand keeps you from still being rational and thinking. I think the issue on this thread is the different usages of the word rage. Some use it more willingly than others. From a medical background I tend to put more emphasis on the actual deffinition which is being out of control. You said it perfect when you said "still rational and thinking". If you are still rational and thinking then by deffinition you are not in rage. I think that is the problem, no one is settling on one deffinition so we are all arguing our own beliefs of what rage is.

7sm

 

[Rick Wade]

Definitely weakness.

Facts: I have been studying MAs for 14 years i have never gotten mad in the Dojo.

I do have a problem with rage I have a short temper when it comes too stupid stuff my saying is the stupid shall be punished. However when I get really Pi$$ed off I can not control myself. I do things I later regret. I have never hit a person out of rage but I would hate to see the outcome. It is like the biggest adrenaline boost you can have you are just out of control and the only way out of your body and mind physically. Now that I have had my time on the couch and that being said Martial Arts has helped me with my personal life and attitude.

Respectfully