Core Principles of Krav Maga

[Loki]

Throws in combat? Hard to implement usually. We don't practice much for throws, and if they're implemented, it's usually either because the executor is skilled or the guy taking the fall was sloppy.

When you say throws, are we talking Judo throws, or anything where the opponent ends up on the ground?

 

[7starmantis]

Throws in combat? Hard to implement usually. We don't practice much for throws, and if they're implemented, it's usually either because the executor is skilled or the guy taking the fall was sloppy.

When you say throws, are we talking Judo throws, or anything where the opponent ends up on the ground?

Well our throws are much different from judo throws, but I guess it could be described as anything where the opponent ends up on the ground. We dont usually go down with them, so its more a throw or takedown. We do alot of grabs with knees and elbows which many times end with a "throw". I could be described as kicking their feet out from under them. There is alot more to it with catching their center and all, but thats the general idea.

I find them actually very effective in combat, when a person has lost their balance or is falling, they are unable to attack you, so your at a great advantage. Usually they react to the unbalancing by droping thier guard or something, their body naturally wants to break their fall.

7sm

 

[kmguy8]

I happen to be a KM instructor in the states & bthis post is misleading...

first.. KM's joint lock theory is simple... if you have to disarm a knife or gun often these are needed... "shock an lock"... KM will "never" advocate a joint lock wihtout first injuring your opponent with strikes. the only exception I can think of is disarming a grenade thrower from behind (in which case you train to catch his throw with his hand still on the grenade and disarm keeping pressure as to not release the lever... pretty unlikely, difficult, and extreme... only one

Control of the weapon is first in an armed attack. Unless gun in which case redirecting the line of fire is paramount. redirect, control, go combative, disarm or eliminate the aggressor (every KM weapons technique with a handful of exceptions follows this logic). I liked arnisador's quote on the top of this page.

throws in combat: KM acrually has a number of throws... full nelson counters, headlocks taking you to the ground, machine gun counters using throws... even the old foot in the chest and drop back throw are all contained in the cirriculm. generally, they are avoided, but one need to use them to counter them (same as our approach to high kicks). also there simply are applications where nothing else will do (often in security and hostage work).

linear vs. circular motion... KM uses both.. often. The post about this is confusing and inaccurate. I also teach a chinese boxing system and I assure you KM uses both. They like to claim it works for any size person, but the reality is the larger athletic build is the one it is best suited for. Obviously, I think this is true of any fighting system in reality.

 

[Navarre]

From my karate training and with no Krav Maga experience, I was always trained as well to control the weapon first. One needs to be mindful of the opponent's other available attacks of course as well as the surroundings but the weapon creates an advantage for the opponent that should be addressed.

Even a flick of the wrist from an oppenent weilding a stick can cause serious damage. It takes only a touch with a sharp knife to severly wound. The perils of a firearm goes without saying.

As far as throws, I think one needs to be versed in both executing and countering throws. It is not an uncommon occurrance on the street so we should have throwing techniques in our arsenal. Besides, if the throw is executed on our opponent with even a little skill, the sidewalk becomes a welcome ally.

 

[green meanie]

throws in combat: KM acrually has a number of throws... full nelson counters, headlocks taking you to the ground, machine gun counters using throws... even the old foot in the chest and drop back throw are all contained in the cirriculm.

Machine gun counters? I can't even begin to imagine what that would be but I think its something I'd be very interested in seeing.

 

[Loki]

Machine gun counters? I can't even begin to imagine what that would be but I think its something I'd be very interested in seeing.

Not machine guns, SMGs. Throws are used when a person is threatening a group with a SMG. The practitioners sneaks up behind him and uses a throw to take him to the ground.

 

[kmguy8]

your statment is not correct. you are correct about being inside of range. however, simialir to many staff empty hand defenses, km teaches a redirection of the barrel controling the line of fire... while facing the opponent, then passing into a takdown in which the weilder is lying on top of the weapon with you in side control or back control on your feet...
you could do this from behind.. but then the need to address the weapon is mute and one would be better served elimanting the target via other methods (we do have a section on sentry removal as well)

KM also teaches other rifle, MG, oe long barrelled weapons defenses. the assumption is a hold up, hostage, or other time when being threatened with a long-barrelled gun in addition to our pistol defenses...

obviously, if the weapon is out of reach (range) your best bet is to get the hell out of there, or to get inside of range where you can eliminate the threat.
If you want to see these moves it is easy enough
"how to defend yourself from armed attack" is a KM book by eyal yanilov that explains a good portion of the systems advanced weapons (specifically gun and rifle but also stick, kinfe, and genade) work.

walk in peace....

 

[madfrank]

Before my test for brown belt in late June of this year, I spent two months or so breaking down the curriculum, analyzing it and offering my own insight on it. One of the subjects I covered are the principles behind Krav Maga, it's basic characteristics. Here they are, listed in no particular order:

1) Directing attacks at weak points: Attacks should always be directed at parts of the opponents body where they will cause great pain/damage and won't be blocked by muscle/fat.

Isn't this universal?

2) Quick and powerful impact: Attacks must be quick and powerful, otherwise they have no meaning. Slow attacks won't hit on time and weak attacks won't hurt.

which style advocates hitting slowly and softly in reality?

3) Hard style: Krav Maga utilizes force vs force and is characterized by short, quick attacks. Defense isn't based on using an opponents force against him (in most cases), but will rather be blocked or evaded and countered immediately.

no use if your weaker as pointed out above.

4) Emphasis on technique rather than strength: Krav Maga fits everyone, since techniques are utilitarian and not strength-dependant. A teenage girl must be able to defend against an adult male.

Easier said than done in reality if not impossible.

5) Improvisation: Reality is seldom a dojo, therefore Krav Maga stresses improvisation. A precise, quick and powerful reaction is preferable to memorizing techniques. The techniques are taught as an ideal, the best possible reaction to a given situation.

Yup most training flies out of the window in the cold light of reality.


6) Lack of rules: Since the issue is self-defense, all means are santioned. We won't be considerate of a person who attacks us, so Krav Maga is devoid of rules. Kicking to the groin, spitting, biting, gouging and hair pulling are all legitimate.

Depends on the seriousness of the attacker and the law. Plus if the teenage girl can bring herself to bite spit etc in my experience most will not.

7) Simplicity: Krav Maga techniques are concise. They aren't visually appealing because beauty is luxury, something that an attacked person doesn't have. Simple is effective and efficient.

Correct but obvious.

8) Adjustability to each practitioner: Every person has a different build, and not everyone can create a 180 degree angle between their legs. Krav Maga teaches the "trunk of the tree", and every practitioner finds his or her "branch". A heavy person can emphasizes fist fighting, a small person can take advantage of his frame for quickness, etc.

In theory.

 

[tsdclaflin]

I think I understand what your saying, but wouldn't a young teenage girl get hurt trying to meet a full power muay thai roundhouse with force of her own? What about a full power hook, how could she stand a chance against a powerful hook from someone my size?

A forceful two-knuckle punch into the thigh or bicept of an oncoming strike could stop the above attacks. I was taught that when I block forcefully, it is really a strike to the attacking limb, that I should try to persuade the attacker to not want to use that same limb as a weapon against me again.

 

[kmguy8]

that 2 knuckle block thing is the biggest load of ***** I have heard in a while!
show me that working once in a MT fight.. i have gone bare shin to shin against 200 lbs fighters for years.... you telling me your 2 knuckle block is going to make me rethink my favorite kick... lol
i suggest you find a better school with more realistic self-defense!

km teaches leg counters to leg strikes to the legs and pretty traditional kickboxing 2 and three point covers to the torso and head for kicks

for punches like the hook KM offers the "outside defense" where the skelital alignment of the blocking arm is at it's strongest against the forarm of the incoming hook... if she needs to block
KM teaches boxing style evasion as well.. obviously bobbing, weaving, fading etc... are better against a huge opponent than a hard block....

km is not soft in that we would not teach someone to trap and lock the joint of the hook without disabling the attacker first...

i hope that clears things up

 

[7starmantis]

A forceful two-knuckle punch into the thigh or bicept of an oncoming strike could stop the above attacks. I was taught that when I block forcefully, it is really a strike to the attacking limb, that I should try to persuade the attacker to not want to use that same limb as a weapon against me again.

It can be a great tool to use in hurting your opponent (the striking not neccessarily the "two knuckle" thing) but its incorrect to say it will stop any attack. Simply physics proves that statement incorrect. Even if you did hurt the attacker, you still have to deal with their force hitting you.

7sm

 

[arnisador]

Yeah, it's usually just a distraction to allow you to enter. Getting a real "destruction" out of it empty-hand is hard. Now, put a knife in that hand and it's another matter...

 

[7starmantis]

Yeah, it's usually just a distraction to allow you to enter. Getting a real "destruction" out of it empty-hand is hard. Now, put a knife in that hand and it's another matter...

Even with a knife you still must deal with their force. Now you can move and stab while your moving, but you can do the same with a strike. What we are talking about is force against force and even with a knife you still must meet their force, not a wise usage of your tools. The knife will damage them, but thats not going to stop their attack or force, you still will either meet thier force or you better move.

7sm

 

[kmguy8]

you people are kidding right..
of course putting a knife in that hand makes a difference
who in the hell is throwing a roundhouse at a guy with a knife...
i did not realize we were even discussing armed combat...
because we were not
no strike to the thigh is stopping my kick (w/o a knife)
*can't believe I had to add that*
and all you do if you block a leg kick with your arm is potentially get it broken by my shin while you expose your head onthat side for a secondary strike which IS coming.....

 

[arnisador]

Even with a knife you still must deal with their force. Now you can move and stab while your moving, but you can do the same with a strike. What we are talking about is force against force

Well, in the FMA we don't think of the destruction--knuckles or knife--as force-on-force. We shift our body away from the strike and use a 'scissoring' motion. So, avoidance is how we keep from being hit (hopefully!), and the strike is not intended to stop the force but rather to be painful and hence distract as we enter.

 

[MJS]

that 2 knuckle block thing is the biggest load of ***** I have heard in a while!
show me that working once in a MT fight.. i have gone bare shin to shin against 200 lbs fighters for years.... you telling me your 2 knuckle block is going to make me rethink my favorite kick... lol
i suggest you find a better school with more realistic self-defense!

km teaches leg counters to leg strikes to the legs and pretty traditional kickboxing 2 and three point covers to the torso and head for kicks

for punches like the hook KM offers the "outside defense" where the skelital alignment of the blocking arm is at it's strongest against the forarm of the incoming hook... if she needs to block
KM teaches boxing style evasion as well.. obviously bobbing, weaving, fading etc... are better against a huge opponent than a hard block....

km is not soft in that we would not teach someone to trap and lock the joint of the hook without disabling the attacker first...

i hope that clears things up

Coming from a FMA viewpoint here, the limb destruction is not designed to end the fight, as in the 1 punch, 1 kill mentality, but to open up other avenues. Applied correctly, it is very effective.

Mike

 

[7starmantis]

you people are kidding right..
of course putting a knife in that hand makes a difference
who in the hell is throwing a roundhouse at a guy with a knife...
i did not realize we were even discussing armed combat...
because we were not
no strike to the thigh is stopping my kick (w/o a knife)
*can't believe I had to add that*
and all you do if you block a leg kick with your arm is potentially get it broken by my shin while you expose your head onthat side for a secondary strike which IS coming.....

If we lay off the "I'm superior" attitude and not address dynamic situations using only absolute terms, we can all get much more out of a discussion like this. Using the word "stopping" a kick is incorrect, even with a knife your not going to "stop" the kick or attack. As Arnisador said, its about moving and then doing the damage.

But, lets get back to the original topic, "Core Principles of Krav Maga". In the Krav Maga system, would an attack to the opponents attacking limb be valid and would that attack come as force against foce (ie not moving and then doing damage, but meeting the attack with an attack of your own)?

7sm

 

[kmguy8]

did not mean to be superior...
the notion of attempting to stop a roundhouse kick with a punch to the thigh seemed .. well "misguided" ... i reread my post and I can see how you thought I was condesecnding and appreciate your more tempered reply

no KM does not generally focus on distructions... of course blocking and countering is another thing.... certianly evasion can play a role, as can distractions, but....

KM principles will generally have you focus on diabling attacker.. not a part of them...
now, when facing a weapon... as I have stated in my earlier posts... that does change the priority and control of the weapon is paramount.. but we will usually focus on diabling or even terminating an armed attacker before any disarm is atempted......

 

[7starmantis]

No problem, I respect your willingness to re-read your post and consider it. I completely agree that attempting to stop a roundhouse kick with a punch is "misguided" and I'll go further and say that attempting to completely stop a full power roundhouse kick with any technique is well...miguided. Evasive action must be taken regardless of whether that is moving in, out, under, hooking the kick, etc. Stoping the kick is only going to make you accept the force of the kick....its desired effect.

Interesting the way you say "disabling the attacker.. not a part of him". I would agree with that mentality, but in my opinion disabling the attacker might involve a "destruction" type technique, but simply wouldn't stop there it would continue until the attacker is disabled. I guess my method would be to disable the attacker by overwhelmingly violent and aggressively nonstopping attacks....while yours would be making use of more precise "kill shots". Does that sound right? Ok reading that sounds like I wouldn't try for serious targets, I most certainly would, I just wouldn't pass by an attack in exchange for the chance of a "better target".

So in an armed situation would KM not teach the use of Chin Na (joint locking/breaking) as a part of controling/disarming the opponant?

7sm

 

[kmguy8]

No problem, I respect your willingness to re-read your post and consider it. I completely agree that attempting to stop a roundhouse kick with a punch is "misguided" and I'll go further and say that attempting to completely stop a full power roundhouse kick with any technique is well...miguided. Evasive action must be taken regardless of whether that is moving in, out, under, hooking the kick, etc. Stoping the kick is only going to make you accept the force of the kick....its desired effect.

Interesting the way you say "disabling the attacker.. not a part of him". I would agree with that mentality, but in my opinion disabling the attacker might involve a "destruction" type technique, but simply wouldn't stop there it would continue until the attacker is disabled. I guess my method would be to disable the attacker by overwhelmingly violent and aggressively nonstopping attacks....while yours would be making use of more precise "kill shots". Does that sound right? Ok reading that sounds like I wouldn't try for serious targets, I most certainly would, I just wouldn't pass by an attack in exchange for the chance of a "better target".

So in an armed situation would KM not teach the use of Chin Na (joint locking/breaking) as a part of controling/disarming the opponant?

7sm

well, lots to cover in ths reply. let me start by saying that the generally recognized founder of Krav Maga climed that one of the "arts" tenants was to be skilled enough to not have to do harm to your attacker. Saying that, it seems that modern KM has gone a long ways from this tenant, especially in how we train beginners.

I am going to have to reply to your issues out of order to make the most sense in this post as a whole. In an unarmed vs. armed opponent the KM classic motto about controling the weapon then diabling the attacker stands (whenever possible). ussually the controls KM imployes are not what I had considered "classic control" from my previous training (Chinese Boxing, Judo, Kempo, MT, & BJJ). For example a KM control might be a simple redirection of a blade attack following to an arm grab then leaning on that arm pressing it into an attacker while punching to the throat or face repeatedly until then grabbing the weaponhand and using a more traditional wrist break and strip of the knife. KM "controls" vs a blade never (at least I have seen) rely on afnct foorwork and evasion or on "passing under" a controled limb like some early Aikido / Hapkido knife work. If you get a copy of the KM videos or buy "how to defend yourself against armed assault" I'll be happy to give you any instruction you like based on these sources... too much to explain without existing video or images to discuss.

in regards to controls and the "disabling" of armed assailants. KM believes that most knife attacks are repeated movents.. (i.e the ice-pick stab over and over resulting in many stabs all along the same path) in most cases. once people see effect with a stab they tend to contuinue that motion.... this fact is one they have researched in prisons and through testimony gathered in knife attack trials.. (Darren Levine being a DA in LA). based on this KM believes the best way to stop these attacks is to "mentally disrupt" this pattern by assaulting them as forcefully as possible. elbows, punches and strikes to the face repeatedly are most of this "disruption" not precise kill shots... way to hard to pull off under the threat of a real-life knife assualt (holy adreniline shot!)... we would not advocate precision rather volume and power shots.... until they stop moving or at the very least resisting...

SO it is fair to say that Self-defense in a more "severe" fashion is what is taught to students and encouraged from experts during training. while our training does cover the locks and holds covered in all the chin na and hapkido video I have seen, it is ussually avoided until the civilian practitioner is very good and understands the importance of protecting thier life with deadly force if confronted with deadly force.

up until expert level, most students are taught to break the elbow or wrist of a defeated attacker rather than a traditional disarm, so hat is a KM distruction... leaving the knife on the ground and you free to escape.... however, at expert level more finesse is included and certian wrist locks and takedowns (often done on already broken limbs) are taught....

now, the military and police cirriculms differ in regards to the presentation of material. A LE student can not redirect a knife swing and force it to the attackers gut or throat.... they must exercise more discretion, so depending on the laws in the state or country the material conforms to meet thier needs....

as for blocking a roundhouse... while I do teach some to step away during a shin or thigh block I actually teach most to step in delivering a right cross against a low roundhouse. the knee flexed rarley is injured and the next day your thigh might be bruised.. but thats it. most of my students have enough MT experience sparring that they have "conditioned shins" and going bare shin every once in a while they know does no harm to thier bodies.... so I am actually going to "have to disagree with you there" and say that yep.. sure can take those kicks no problem...

hope that was not too much.. by the book from amazon and ask away... it does a pretty good job laying out all the weapons work for KM green, blue, brown, black and 2 black for the world to see.... I'd be happy to answer any specific questions.. don't buy the vidoes.. they are well.... not that great

hope I answered your questions