Rage - source of strength or weakness?

[7starmantis]

I don't think rage has a place in any fighting situation. Even the one mentioned about to remifications of events. I think rage makes you tense regardless of if you think it does or not. I believe that rage makes you focus on an encounter when you shouldn't be focusing on it at all. That right there is why I think rage is not something that is going to give you any type of advantage in a fight.

If your raging and attacking a trained, skilled MAist opponant who is relaxed, and not set on beating you up as most reging people are, you are in a disadvantage.

7sm

 

[Bod]

It is best to learn to fight when you are stunned, shocked or scared. That's when you need to do it. If you have time to work up a rage, then you may have time to work out a way not to fight.

If I saw somebody working themselves into a rage, prior to attacking me I would get direct. Id go directly in, or directly away. Rage takes time, and that is a weakness in itself.

I've seen friends attacked and flown into a rage immediately, but I was essentially inneffective, just flying at the guy. Almost immediately the rage disappeared and then I was standing there shocked and stunned and lost, completely out of control of the situation.

The alternative to fear should be control, not rage. Breath deep, pucker up your lower gate and have a 'plan'. I plan on the way I relate to the opponent, the initial threat and the evolving threat.

I envisage scenarios which move between these three factors.
E.g.
Friend gets lairy at a party. I hold him and try to pull him somewhere quiet, while talking him down. He goes nuts and grabs a knife. I throw him down hard and grab a heavy object backing off, talking him down. He throws the knife away and bursts out crying, I take a scarf hold and continue talking to him.

By working through many, many scenarios, I hope to not freeze up, and get stuck with an innapropriate response. Just as I envision certain mistakes or openings my partner might make in sparring, and drill those in my mind as 'cues' for action, I do the same for 'cues' in self defence scenarios.

Clear thinking is a far better way, than trying to harness the power of rage.

 

[Black Bear]

I don't know if we're meaning slightly different things by rage. I don't THINK so, but it's a possibility. The emphasis on the settled mind is precisely one of the reasons I dislike certain arts as methodologies for self-defense. Suppose you get home one day and find the babysitter tied and gagged on the couch, and some whackjob about to screw your kid, who's tied to the table. I don't think you're going to be like a wooden doll, or responding like an echo. I think you will be a tad bit off kilter, and I think that intensity will give you a good impetus while you disable the guy. The sort of gross-motor stuff that some systems emphasize are resilient and robust to mental and emotional states (primarily it's anger and fear with which we concern ourselves in the combat context), which is an important asset. To blitzkrieg, straightblast, blender, Belfort-blast, or shredderize an assailant with intensity is the most natural thing in the world! Rage is by no means inimical to skillful and effective fighting! But then, imagine doing certain classical stuff with "intensity" or "rage", say a jump spinning kick, irimi into sankyo, or a complex silat takedown. That is indeed preposterous. If you have a look at the Laur article I posted on the FMJL thread, you'll have a clear idea of the train of thought underlying this.

 

[tkdguy1982]

I think that rage definently makes you fight sloppy,controlled or uncontrolled. IMO.

 

[KyleShort]

I am inclined to agree with Black Bear...likely due to the fact that I am of the school of thought that mindset is 90% of a battle.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that "mushin" is the ideal mindset for combative situations...no mind...not filtering your experience through your cognitive matrix of preconceptions...however being entirely devoid of emotion is to be devoid of motivation....those no motion.

But you need something to drive your will to harm and your fortitude to survive. I like to think that cold reason and determination will carry you through. Rage is sloppy, but I that it is easily confused with the cold anger (read killer instinct) that the most seasoned of combatants can/will experience if they love life and in their heart's wish to protect it.

And another note, I think fighting or killing without ANY emotion can be percieved as amoral...and to achieve it is teatering on socio-pathic. Without emotion, what is your motivation for harming/killing your assailant...because you can...because the opportunity arose? Emotions are natural, are human, are necessary.

No mind, but not no emotion...cold anger, not rage...these things go hand in hand but I see them as very different.

 

[tkdguy1982]

Most definently agree w/ that, very good point.

 

[7starmantis]

I can't agree as I have been in a situation where I happened upon a young girl being raped. Rage was not the first thing on my mind, it was making sure she was ok and to stop the threat. That meant disabling the attacker. The rage didn't start until hours after. It was pure business, doing what had to be done, but then again, I've had plenty of experience with that as a paramedic.I went to work immediatly, disablin gthe guy, not killing him. To spend too much time on him could be letting the injured woman die. You have to think of every angle. I disabled him, got to her, made sure she was stable, and got the authorities. She was in bad shape, so I had to focus my attention on her, who knows what might of happen to the attacker had I had to wait on the authorities bored!

With the same scenario Black Bear mentioned it would be fine to "rush" the guy with rage, but what if the guy has spent the last 25 years training in MA himself. Then your rage acts against you. When he has skill as well and you must use skill against skill, its a different story. In a scenario with an attacker with no training rage can actually help you, because you can ignore pain and such. However when it comes to true skill in saving yourself and not being killed, rage will only set you back. Rage in all scientific and biological studies proves it is not synonymous with fine motor skill.

I think it is ridiculous when speaking of having to use a high level of skill to defend yourself, to say rage can help you out. The point is that how do you know when or if the attacker has a high level of skill?

7sm

 

[tkdguy1982]

Very true also, lots of good points. The truth is, if the attacker has a high level of skill also, definently have to think w/ your head & not your ****. IMO.

 

[Black Bear]

With the same scenario Black Bear mentioned it would be fine to "rush" the guy with rage, but what if the guy has spent the last 25 years training in MA himself. . . . When he has skill as well and you must use skill against skill, its a different story. In a scenario with an attacker with no training rage can actually help you, because you can ignore pain and such. However when it comes to true skill in saving yourself and not being killed, rage will only set you back.

I think it is ridiculous when speaking of having to use a high level of skill to defend yourself, to say rage can help you out. The point is that how do you know when or if the attacker has a high level of skill?[/size]

I can't for the life of me imagine why this would matter to me. I don't need fine and complex motor skill for what I do. The point is that rage or fear are likely to be present, because they are usually an integral part of the experience of naturalistic violence, as opposed to "artificial" violence. So you want tactics that are robust, resilient, and accessible under those conditions.

Rage in all scientific and biological studies proves it is not synonymous with fine motor skill.

So?

 

[7starmantis]

I can't for the life of me imagine why this would matter to me. I don't need fine and complex motor skill for what I do. The point is that rage or fear are likely to be present, because they are usually an integral part of the experience of naturalistic violence, as opposed to "artificial" violence. So you want tactics that are robust, resilient, and accessible under those conditions.

So?

This is the response I expected as most arts don't train in using feeling such as feeling your opponants center, or feeling his energy and which way it is moving. If not using those skills, rage probably is a good thing. However, if you were to come in contact with an assailent trained in these skills, your rage would be a major point of attack for your assailent. With rage, you commit yourself to an attack which can get you killed. I don't expect you to understand it, because I didn't before either. But having fought people who know how to "feel" and move with the attack, it is impossible to use rage and gain an upper hand against them, trust me, I've tried.

You said you do not rely on fine or complex motor skill? What exactly do you rely on, your rage?

I dont agree that fear and rage will be present at the onset of the situation. As a paramedic I can tell you that running into a "crack house" while shots are being fired trying to find a wounded person to try and save their life in 5th ward in Houston, fear and rage are the last things on your mind, they are however the first on your mind at the ending of the situation. To allow fear and rage to be on your mind during that type of situation is what will get you killed.

7sm

 

[Black Bear]

You said you do not rely on fine or complex motor skill? What exactly do you rely on, your rage?

I rely on myself. The totality of what I am capable of by virtue of my innate survival instinct and rigorous, scenario-based training. I suppose that doesn't answer your question. Specifically, I rely on gross-motor movements, which are accessible regardless of emotional state. As a causal modeling geek might say (*guilty*), they are "robust to variance in emotional state"--that is, their efficacy remains invariantly high irrespective of changes in emotional state.

I don't expect you to understand it, because I didn't before either.

oh dear, aren't YOU smart. No, I've been there and done that. When I started MA in my first year of undergraduate university, I was in aikido. I did Five Animal Shaolin for several years after that. Kali and boxing too, often use energy sensitivity, as does, surprise surprise, RBSD.

 

[7starmantis]

I rely on myself. The totality of what I am capable of by virtue of my innate survival instinct and rigorous, scenario-based training. I suppose that doesn't answer your question. Specifically, I rely on gross-motor movements, which are accessible regardless of emotional state. As a causal modeling geek might say (*guilty*), they are "robust to variance in emotional state"--that is, their efficacy remains invariantly high irrespective of changes in emotional state.

oh dear, aren't YOU smart. No, I've been there and done that. When I started MA in my first year of undergraduate university, I was in aikido. I did Five Animal Shaolin for several years after that. Kali and boxing too, often use energy sensitivity, as does, surprise surprise, RBSD.

Personal attacks don't make your point more believable.

You rely on techniques that are "robust to variance in emotional state", correct? Also they are accessible regardless of emotional state? But yet they are energy sensitive? Thats not possible. Fear and Rage by existence cloud the mind, a techniqe that is "accessible regardless of emotional state" is not one that includes sensitivity of any kind. In RBSD have you spent time connecting forearms with a partner and following or continuing to stay conected while your partner moves around the room trying to loose your contact? ie. Sticking Drills? That is the type of feel or sensitivity I am speaking about. Also that requires great mental control and ability which is, once again, clouded by fear and rage.

7sm

 

[Black Bear]

Personal attacks don't make your point more believable.

Oh, so you DO understand the point of what i just said. Do take it to heart my friend.

You rely on techniques that are "robust to variance in emotional state", correct? Also they are accessible regardless of emotional state? But yet they are energy sensitive? Thats not possible. Fear and Rage by existence cloud the mind, a techniqe that is "accessible regardless of emotional state" is not one that includes sensitivity of any kind. In RBSD have you spent time connecting forearms with a partner and following or continuing to stay conected while your partner moves around the room trying to loose your contact? ie. Sticking Drills?

"...have you spent time..." IS the right question. The right answer, is YES. Do we? NO. Because we found it, over time, to not be as useful as other approaches. Which answers your earlier remarks. "...yet they are energy sensitive?" No. We don't do that stuff anymore. But you presumptuously and obnoxiously assume that that is because we ar ignorant of it. We discard it on the basis of our knowledge of it, not from a standpoint of ignorance.

That was why I was saying that you are smart.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rage is bad.

I have used it against people.

They come up and call you Blankity Blank.

I reply How are you Blankity Blank.

(* You see they have already told you what they do not like the most. Thsi is why they use this insult. It is their favorite because it gets to them *)

Then the person gets upset, charges, losses control, and they do not think properly.

Embrace the Adrenaline, let it was over you. (* Adrenaline is a tough drug to kick *). Stay calm yet ready, and wait for them to make the mistake.

 

[7starmantis]

Oh, so you DO understand the point of what i just said. Do take it to heart my friend.

I understand your point, but as my post stated it is unbelievable. Its amazing how many times with you I'm havin gto quote myself. Your very good at twisting my post around to try and mean something else, your almost better than my wife I think.

"...have you spent time..." IS the right question. The right answer, is YES. Do we? NO. Because we found it, over time, to not be as useful as other approaches. Which answers your earlier remarks. "...yet they are energy sensitive?" No. We don't do that stuff anymore. But you presumptuously and obnoxiously assume that that is because we ar ignorant of it. We discard it on the basis of our knowledge of it, not from a standpoint of ignorance.

How exactly did you find it to be not as useful? What is the determining factor in this discovery? Is it because you didn't have the time to do the training? Its amazing to me that a small group of people have taken what thousands of years of MA has created from hundreds of styles and created a base system of a static amount of moves and thus circumscribed the perfect collection of usefull techniques. You also don't use that "stuff" about energy sensitive anymore either I see. The only reason I "presumtuously assume" (isn't that a bit redundant?) its because of ignorance is because of the effectivness of it. Its simple biology and psychology, elementary even, that proves what clouds the mind, thats why I "assume" what I did.

Grant it, in most situations you won't "need" that energy sensitive "stuff" to come out on top, nor the IB training, but don't we train for the unexpected? Don't we train for the odds? What are the odds of you getting jumped everytime you step foot outside your house? The sensitivity can save your life in a situation like one of our students faced recently. Walking out of a resturant with his family, he was attacked from behind by a guy who placed him in a full nelson and walked him to the side of the resturant where his two buddies waited with guns. The sensitivity would have saved him had he been able to feel the attackers hands before being in the hold allready. Feeling his energy pushing forward at his kidney level, he could have yielded with the energy turning the attack into a hold of his own. This was the case with one of my training partners who faced almost the exact same scenario.

My point is simply don't write off as useless things that you choose not to practice. To do so implies you know what works and everything you don't do doesn't work. Not so.

7sm

 

[Black Bear]

My point is simply don't write off as useless things that you choose not to practice.

That is the most hilarious thing you have said this entire thread. You understand that you have the cart before the horse here, right? As I was attempting to explain?

To do so implies you know what works and everything you don't do doesn't work. Not so.

Non sequitur. By that same reasoning, you could say that any time that you make a decision TO train something, or a decision NOT to train something, it is because you know everything that does and doesn't work.

If I have twisted your words, show me how. And I must meet this wife of yours. She sounds delightful.

I'll be back to finish the rest later. I just got back from filling an out of town assessment contract.

 

[8253]

strength comes with self control and general tranquility, not rage

 

[Tony]

Well I have always thought that anger never helps! It always makes you tense espcially if you are fighting against someone much more experienced! I have a friend who has been practicing Taekwondo for a little over a year and he is 33 and so not very flexible and cannot kick up to head height! I guess he gets so frustrated when he is sparring with higher grades than him! he has been warned for being too excessive! he has even joked about his behaviour calling himself the Tasmanian Devil!
Personally speaking I have found that fear has helped me a lot! Only last night I managed to evade quite a few blows with someone much more experienced while we were doing semi contact. He would charge at me trying to do a punch and I would simply duck without thinking! I do also have this bad habit of turning my back which is a no no when in tournaments! but I have never entered any tournaments! The guy I sparred with had so I think I did quite well considering. Of I had been full of rage I would not have done as well! Fear is a good friend if you know how to use it but anger blinds! Focused aggression may work just to help getting too overflowed with fear!
I remember as I was walking down town in the evening, three guys were shouting comments at me! I had every reason to be afraid not knowing their intentions, so I tried using a little anger to prepare myself for a possible confrontation, just enough so that I would not be totally paralysed with fear unable to move! Luckily they did not continue!

 

[7starmantis]

Non sequitur. By that same reasoning, you could say that any time that you make a decision TO train something, or a decision NOT to train something, it is because you know everything that does and doesn't work.

This is getting tiresome! When I said "choose not to train" I ment as a whole, not an a daily basis, but as a whole in your MA training entirety. We could play the faulty logic game, but your analogy is wrong. I based my statement on what you had said about your training and your thoughts on the training of others. In this thread we are talking about rage as it applies to fighting. There is no scientific or otherwise credible source that shows rage and or anger or even fear contribute to sound decision making. In a self defense situation, you want to make the most sound decisions you have ever made.

Your using an ill founded generalization to say that because you have fought while inraged and became successful that rage is good for fighting. Thats simply not the reality of it. Rage effects decision making, fine and complex motor skills, rational, and even control. Explain how MA is still complete and corect without those qualities?

7sm

 

[Black Bear]

Your using an ill founded generalization to say that because you have fought while inraged and became successful that rage is good for fighting.

Oh, that's interesting, because I don't recall saying any such thing.

"Thats simply not the reality of it. Rage effects decision making, fine and complex motor skills, rational, and even control. Explain how MA is still complete and corect without those qualities?"
LMAO! Who said anything about complete and correct martial arts? I thought we were talking about whether or not it is a source of strength in the event of a counterassault!