I think his point is that some little old Korean lady will understand TKD, more than those foreign champions ever will, and, to that sentiment, I think he is right; however, they got that fighting part down.
Racism in Martial Arts
- Thread starter martialartstutor
- Start date
My theory was that most of the government funded research and training and cutting edge knowledge you mentioned was probably sport-oriented. I don't see how any of that would apply to the cultural values and symbolism you referenced earlier. I suppose there could be special government-funded research into improving the street-oriented combative application of the art. If so, I'd love to see what they're coming up with. Most of the evolution of the art over recent decades doesn't seem to be in that direction.
Danny T
Senior Master
And obviously therefore completely religious! LOL!
Beowulf (modern English translation) by Anonymous : The Poetry Foundation
THE epic poem, in English not Anglo-Saxon. Nice lot of fighting in it so fairly martial arts related lol.
THE epic poem, in English not Anglo-Saxon. Nice lot of fighting in it so fairly martial arts related lol.
I must have missed something is this thread about racism or about Korean instruction?
Racism used to be seen in many tournaments in the USA. Actual race battles would break out between people of different color . Sides in these battles would not be because of what school or system you belong to but what color you where. Many instructor would not teach anyone if you where not the same colored skin. That is racism.
Cultural prejudice used to happen when someone from another country came to your school and they learned next to nothing but where used as a punching and kicking dummies until they "proved they belonged"
Racism used to be seen in many tournaments in the USA. Actual race battles would break out between people of different color . Sides in these battles would not be because of what school or system you belong to but what color you where. Many instructor would not teach anyone if you where not the same colored skin. That is racism.
Cultural prejudice used to happen when someone from another country came to your school and they learned next to nothing but where used as a punching and kicking dummies until they "proved they belonged"
Gnarlie
Master of Arts
All of those things and more. There's research covering pretty much every aspect of the art and the culture surrounding it. About how to communicate those things and share them with a world that does not have a common cultural base and context from which to understand the art. My point is that cutting edge stuff is not and can not be happening anywhere else in the world, so if you want to get that deeper understanding of the art, there are only a couple of ways to go...I would suggest that similar situations exist with other arts too.
Gnarlie
Master of Arts
I brought it in as an example because the OP mentioned Korea, and because Taekwondo in particular is often described as 'ethnocentric'.
Now that IS racism. Not something I have experienced, thankfully.
Why not?
Gnarlie
Master of Arts
Because TKD is Korean. It does not make sense for any country other than Korea to be defining what Taekwondo is, and how to understand it, because no other country has the full picture / context.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Strange. The Dutch redefined muay Thai. And are a powerhouse of the sport.
How does Korea retain its ownership of tkd?
Gnarlie
Master of Arts
MT is a different animal, can't really speak to that.
Iran and a couple of other countries have done a fairly good job of redefining sport taekwondo too, but that is just a part of the art. The core of the art remains with the Koreans, basically because up to now the rest of the world has not been a position to fully appreciate it because the context was missing.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
What context is missing?
I don't know ... it sounds a bit circular to me. Koreans are the best at TKD because they are the ones doing research and development on it. Why doesn't the research and development of folks in other countries count? Because they're not Korean!
I suppose it comes down to what you consider to be the essential nature of the art.
If you consider TKD to be primarily a sport, there's no reason why competitors and coaches around the world can't contribute to it equally.
If you consider TKD to be primarily a combative martial art, there's no reason why practitioners around the world can't contribute to it equally.
If you consider TKD to be primarily a vehicle for personal growth, there's no reason why practitioners around the world can't contribute to it equally.
If you consider TKD to be primarily an expression of Korean cultural identity, then you've defined it such that only those born and raised in the Korean culture can truly develop the art and contribute to it.
I wonder what percentage of TKD practitioners regard it in each of these ways?
Gnarlie
Master of Arts
OK with regard to Tony and DB's last posts...
I agree it is circular. Let me restate that: Taekwondo, both as it was founded in the 50's, and as it exists now, was and is Korean. It is what the Koreans say it is, even if the rest of the world wants it to be something else. Which they frequently seem to want.
It's difficult to understand and apply the essence of the martial art without understanding concepts like Do, Taegeuk, Samjae, Um-Yang, Kang-Yu and Yeokhak, for example. If you didn't grow up with them, in order to understand these concepts even at a rudimentary level, it is necessary to view them in their wider contexts, ie Taoism, Buddhism, Confucianism, their relationship with Samilshingo and the Chunbukyeong, and the Han philosophy. All of this is built into the forms and motions of Taekwondo, along with historical symbolism.
Now you can take the combatives out of Taekwondo and go and use and develop them for sport, or to fight, as many countries have done, but the core of the martial art will not come with them. You can practice the forms as empty placeholders too, maybe even gain some insight from repetition, but without the wider context, a lot of the information in there goes right over our heads with a nice wooshing sound. That's less likely to be the case with a Korean native.
I agree it is circular. Let me restate that: Taekwondo, both as it was founded in the 50's, and as it exists now, was and is Korean. It is what the Koreans say it is, even if the rest of the world wants it to be something else. Which they frequently seem to want.
It's difficult to understand and apply the essence of the martial art without understanding concepts like Do, Taegeuk, Samjae, Um-Yang, Kang-Yu and Yeokhak, for example. If you didn't grow up with them, in order to understand these concepts even at a rudimentary level, it is necessary to view them in their wider contexts, ie Taoism, Buddhism, Confucianism, their relationship with Samilshingo and the Chunbukyeong, and the Han philosophy. All of this is built into the forms and motions of Taekwondo, along with historical symbolism.
Now you can take the combatives out of Taekwondo and go and use and develop them for sport, or to fight, as many countries have done, but the core of the martial art will not come with them. You can practice the forms as empty placeholders too, maybe even gain some insight from repetition, but without the wider context, a lot of the information in there goes right over our heads with a nice wooshing sound. That's less likely to be the case with a Korean native.
Just to make sure I am correctly understanding your position ...
1) The forms and techniques of TKD are designed to symbolically encode concepts from Korean history, religion, and philosophy (including the specifically Korean takes on religions/philosophies which did not originate in Korea - i.e. Taoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism).
2) That symbolic encoding (rather than, for example, the combative application) is the true core of TKD. Anyone who doesn't get the encoded references to Korean philosophy, history, and religion is missing the essence of the art.
Is that more or less what you are saying?
Many Chinese MA instructors don't teach Japanese students even they share the same skin color.
Gnarlie
Master of Arts
Not quite. The Korean takes on those themes determine the strategy, and beneath it tactics and techniques, therefore they determine the combative application. The philosophical and combative aspects are mutually dependent and together form the core. Splitting them leaves you with something that just isn't really Taekwondo anymore.
For example if you just take the combatives and try to apply them, you have no underlying principles as to how that should work. This is the situation some schools are currently in - they learn technique after technique but there is no glue holding the thing together into a coherent set of tactics and strategy. They have essentially inherited the 'movement shell' of TKD, the forms and some combatives, and a sport.
Now we can use our knowledge of western combat or other arts to surmise how the motions in the shell should be applied, but we will arrive a different conclusions to those the underlying Taekwondo philosophy would lead us to when understood in context. We tend to do that without thinking about it, we fill in blanks from our own experience and end up with something that might work, and might even look like Taekwondo and be called Taekwondo, but it won't be Taekwondo, because the fundamentals underlying it will be different. There are also plenty of schools out there doing this, teaching this, and being very successful with it.
If I want to fill in those gaps with the right native Taekwondo information, there really are a limited number of places to get it. I believe in going to the source, the specialist, the expert, regardless of who or where that might be. I don't perceive that to be racism, but perhaps I am wrong. These are just my opinions, after all.
Study the term harder.
They just do, and you will never understand. Ha ha
Most, if not, secretly, all.
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