Questions for karateka in kata-oriented dojos

[chufeng]

I understand the Godan part...fifth dan...

What exactly is a Shihan?

...and I think the idea of ONE karate is just fine...unlike the invented systems we've seen around here.

The whole idea of "systems" developing from older BASE systems is OK...BUT, I think those changes require a really DEEP understanding of the original art...maybe even use the "founder's" model of how his art was developed...BUT, too many NEW arts are springing up everywhere you look...bummer.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Shuri-te
It would be interesting to know how you vet out the prospective students that don't measure up to your requirement that they seek moral or spiritual development in your dojo. Do you have a questionnaire that you provide prospective students. Do they commit themselves in writing, or perhaps there a verbal agreement.

I simply ask them what their goals/intentions are for studying a martial art.
Based on their answers I decide if I want them as a student or not. If their goals/intentions are different than what I teach I suggest they look for something more suitable to their needs.

Originally posted by Shuri-te
Now that is an interesting statement. You have made two recent posts on the topic of "Some Okinawan History" as a response to a post, that you seemed to take issue with. The two ran to over 4,900 words. Had you met the person you were replying to?

That post was meant for all people on Martial Talk not one specifically.
The posts were a collection of information I have accumulated over several years and have stored on my computer, a simple cut and paste and it’s posted.
Funny thing, I posted how many words a certain Zhao Dei Wei wrote and you have just done it to me.

Originally posted by Shuri-te
Again, it would be helpful if you read something before commenting. It clearly says primary art and RANKING . The answer to your odd question "why": that is my rank.

Getting kind of snippy aren’t ya………
I made no mistake in what I read in your profile and simply asked you:
“Just out of curiousity under your primary art it says “Godan Shihan”. Why?”
It said primary ART and ranking to which you listed none, and only listed a rank and a title.
Just curious. There was no need to get overly defensive.

Originally posted by Shuri-te
I chose not to indicate the "style" it was awarded in because I have the same belief that Shigeru Nakamura had, at least as described in Bishop's book, where according to his son, he "disliked the thought of karate being divided into separate styles."

Yes I have read Bishop’s book……..in fact I suggested Zhao Dei Wei read it and bone up on it since he was claiming to be an 8th dan in Pangainoon and didn’t know how many kata were in the system.:rofl:
Yet another funny thing, I posted a quote from Bishop’s Book to a certain Zhao Dei Wei wrote and you have just done it to me.

Curious you would use the User ID Shurite and claim a 5th dan in it, since Zhao Dei Wei claimed to have studied Shurite and and also claimed a 5th dan in it.

I’ll ask my original question again since you to neglected to answer it.

”What is the purpose for asking these questions about a hypothetical student?
Is it out of morbid curiosity or is there some actual purpose behind it?”

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by chufeng
I understand the Godan part...fifth dan...

What exactly is a Shihan?

Shihan is a title that denotes a teacher.
The grade at which one earns it varies from system to system.

Maybe Shurite can enlighten us and tell us from whom (Teacher and organization) he received his Shihan and 5th dan from…………….

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Shuri-te
SRyuFighter,

Are you affiliated with Dan Smith?

Since we are asking for affiliations...............Shurite who are you affiliated with?

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Shuri-te

Mike,

I would be grateful if you could provide me with an approximate number of kata an "average" student might be practicing after say 3 years. But what I am really looking for is the total number of reps, on average that this student might do over time, say in a week or a month? Again an approximation would be fine.

Thanks.

Shurite,
I would like to ask you the same question.

Originally posted by Shuri-te

Yilisifu,

Is there any way you might be able to approximate the number of kata repetitions an average student might practice over time. You can define it any way you want. Say, for example, an "average" student has been with you for three years, and attends class an average amount of time (perhaps 5 hours per week).

How many form repetitions might that person practice, in class, over say a month, on average?

Shurite,
Again, I would like to ask you the same question.


Please give us some insight into the art you train in.

Where did you learn it?
Or
Who did you learn it from?
What is the name of your art?

How many years did it take you to reach black belt and how many to reach 5th dan?

Which kata do you practice?
How many repetitions do you do of each kata?
Is there anything different about you art that is not found in other similar arts?

What are some of the principles associated with your art? (i.e dojo kun or something along those lines)

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Shuri-te
I chose not to indicate the "style" it was awarded in because I have the same belief that Shigeru Nakamura had, at least as described in Bishop's book, where according to his son, he "disliked the thought of karate being divided into separate styles."

Amusing that you should have that mind set and chose the user ID name Shurite then.
Since the names Shurite, Nahate, and Tomarite are politically motivated and came about around the beginning of the 20th Century as a way to discriminate themselves from each other.
When in actuality the previous name for the indigenous art of Okinawa regardless of which kata were practiced was called Ryukyu Kempo Tode jutsu or more simply called “Te”.

 

[Mike Clarke]

Oh Please!

Don't tell me Shurite and Kuchi bushi are the same guy

Shurite, if you are on the up and up, please let us know a little more about yourself and who you have trained with and been promoted by. If for no other reason than to clear matters up.
Ryu Shin Kan has asked you some fair questions and all you have to do is give him some straight answers.

Of course, if you are the man from Florida with the over inflated ego and the made up system held together by other peoples ignorance, then this silly attempt to hide yourself really does show you for what you are.

I'll await your reply with interest.

Mike.

 

[Shuri-te]

RyuShiKan said: I’ll ask my original question again since you to neglected to answer it.

Do I sense a touch of snippiness. Naw, couldn't be. I find this statement interesting coming from someone so selective in what he chooses to answer. This post is an excellent example. You choose to write about all sorts of issues, except of course, the subject of the post (rate of kata introduction and numbers of repetitions.)

But you have also asked that I provide answers to my own questions regarding rate of kata introduction and the numbers of repetitions practiced. How about a simple deal. We both agree to share this information on this forum? Are you game? No neglecting questions now.

RyuShiKan continues: What is the purpose for asking these questions about a hypothetical student? Is it out of morbid curiosity or is there some actual purpose behind it?”

In this brief post, you have demonstrated a remarkable facility for misreading. Let's start from the very beginning. The very first sentence of this thread read: "I am trying to better understand some issues regarding how kata is commonly taught and practiced in Okinawan and Japanese systems today."

Some assumptions were followed by two questions. The first asked the rate of introduction of kata. The second asked the total repetitions of kata, on average over time.

Now apparently this may not be all that obvious to you, but I think there just might be a general consensus that the number of repetitions a given kata is practiced would have a direct relationship on the effectiveness of its use in self defense.

RyuShiKan said: Curious you would use the User ID Shurite and claim a 5th dan in it

Do I sense a consistency here? Have I really stated a claim to a 5th dan in Shuri-te? Or perhaps just maybe this is another flight of your fancy?

Actually, Shuri-te is merely an anonymous web pseudonym. What a concept.

RyuShiKan said: There was no need to get overly defensive.

Might you just be projecting your own feelings onto someone that has no such concerns? You are certainly entitled to misread any implication you want regarding my statements. It goes hand in hand with the misreading of the posts themselves. The terms snippy and defensive often imply some negative feeling. In fact I have none. I am just having some fun.

Shall we go on?

 

[SRyuFighter]

I'm just a tad bit puzzled here. But I still don't think you answered Ryu Shi Kan's question yet. Might have missed it. And in his defense Ryu Shi Kan has always answered any questions that I have asked him and have learned much from him, I have never thought of him as insecure or avoiding questions...

 

[Shuri-te]

Mike Clarke said: Don't tell me Shurite and Kuchi bushi are the same guy. Shurite.

I have never heard of Kuchi bushi, so I guess I am not him. If someone else has used a web name similar to mine, that was not me either.

Mike Clarke said: Shurite, if you are on the up and up, please let us know a little more about yourself.

Mike, It will be up to you to decide for yourself whether I am on the up and up.

Here is a little about me. I am in my late forties, and have been a martial arts enthusiast for over 30 years.

I love to practice kata and train on the makiwara. I am fortunate to have a small dojo where I can do this with my students. When I can find good articles and books, I like to read what little history of karate has that has been translated into English.

I am not a martial arts professional as I have another career. And I have a family, so at this time in my life, these commitments limit the time I can spend in the dojo.

I don't feel like I have practiced a kata well unless I get up over 25 reps of it. When I don't have any distractions, and get focused and practice a kata 40 or 50 times without a break, I get into the same meditative state I do after a 10 mile run.

My family tolerates my obsession with kata and have to put up with the dining room table always being pushed up against the wall to make space for practice. My teenage sons have wonderful charicatures of some of my movements to some music I occasionally play. Now I have an mp3 player and headphones so they don't have to listen to my music tastes which harken back to the '70s.

As my pen name might indicate, the kata I teach and practice can be found in several Shorin Ryu systems.

Mike Clarke said: Please let us know who you have trained with and been promoted by. If for no other reason than to clear matters up.

Mike, it is my opinion that there just might be at least one unnamed poster on this forum that just might take some information I provide regarding my training history, and make an issue of it. So let's just say I find that anonymity is the mother of prevention.

So despite your reasonable request, I humbly choose to refrain from "clearing matters up".

But if you would like to ask me questions about my thoughts on kata, or training, etc., I would be happy to share some ideas with you.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Well Shurite's "non-answer" to my questions reeks of Zhao Dei Wei (better known as Kuchi Bushi).

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Shuri-te

Mike, it is my opinion that there just might be at least one unnamed poster on this forum that just might take some information I provide regarding my training history, and make an issue of it. So let's just say I find that anonymity is the mother of prevention.

Yet another reason I think you are just a little too similar to Zhao Dei Wei a.k.a kuchibushi.
What makes you say that, have I or anyone else ever questioned your linage or style?

Originally posted by Shuri-te

So despite your reasonable request, I humbly choose to refrain from "clearing matters up".

Well if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Shuri-te
I find this statement interesting coming from someone so selective in what he chooses to answer. This post is an excellent example.

You got a question……….fire away.

Originally posted by Shuri-te
Shall we go on?

Oh by all means let’s………..that is if you have the “stones” and integrity enough to provide some simple information.

From whom and what organization did you receive your 5th dan and shihan certificates?
What is the name of the art and style you practice?
As long as the topic is on kata which kata do you practice?

Nobody else seems to have a problem with giving this information except you and your alter ego Zhao Dei Wei aka Kuchibushi

 

[Shuri-te]

RyuShiKan said: Please give us some insight into the art you train in.

In response,

Shuri-te said: (RyuShiKan) you have asked that I provide answers to my own questions regarding rate of kata introduction and the numbers of repetitions practiced. How about a simple deal. We both agree to share this information on this forum? Are you game? No neglecting questions now..

So, what's the big deal here. Are you really unwilling to share generic training practices in your dojo.

There is a very simple way to do this. We each describe our dojo training of a typical student of ours. Let's pick one around Ikkyu or Shodan, and provide:
1. How many years the student has trained in the dojo.
2. How many hours the student might practice in the dojo in an average or hypothetical month?
3. How many kata, total, would the student might practice in this average month
4. What was the rate of kata introduction over the years that the student trained in the dojo.

It would take you but a few moments to provide this information. A small fraction compared to what you have invested in this post to date.

Once we cover this ground I would be happy to share more information about my background regarding the art I teach and my training habits.

RyuShiKan, Here is a quote by you. "I’ll ask my original question again since you to neglected to answer it."

Ditto my friend. Will you take me up on this simple request to exchange information, or will you take refuge in statements that compare my "non-answers" to someone else's. Statements that are indeed non-answers.

Silence is golden. but evasive answers, ah, well they are platinum.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Shuri-te
I am trying to better understand some issues regarding how kata is commonly taught and practiced in Okinawan and Japanese systems today.

Why?
What specifically is your motivation for wanting this information?
Is it for some research paper or article?

I have asked this question before and you have just skirted around a real answer.

Originally posted by Shuri-te
This student has heard that it often takes approximately 4 years to get to black belt and is expecting to make this investment. Whether the student ever makes it to black belt is not an issue, but for now, all this student is planning is a 4-year investment in the art.

Why only 4 years?

Originally posted by Shuri-te
Now let's imagine this student comes to the dojo a reasonable amount for an average student. (You should feel free to define it, but I would say the minimum would be between 3 and 4 hours per week, 50 weeks out of the year).

If this hypothetical "average" student were to train in your dojo,

1. What would be the rate of introduction of kata. (A new kata introduced, on average, every xx months.)

When the student has adequately learned a kata and some of the techniques there in they might move on to the next kata. I don't run a factory with fixed time limit or schedule for teaching kata.
Sometimes I won’t teach a new kata for months and only work on technique.

Originally posted by Shuri-te
2. What would be a rough estimate of the number of total repetitions for all kata, that this student would practice in the dojo in a typical month. If the number changes over time, the rate of change would be useful as well. (1st year students - xx number of total kata reps per month, 2nd year students - yy number of total kata reps, etc.)
Rough estimates would be fine.

I don’t care how many reps they do per month as long as they improve.
Quality not quantity.

Originally posted by Shuri-te
Anything else you want to throw in on the subject would be appreciated.

Alright I think I will………
From whom and what organization did you receive your 5th dan and shihan certificates?
What is the name of the art and style you practice?
As long as the topic is on kata which kata do you practice?

Originally posted by Shuri-te

There is a very simple way to do this. We each describe our dojo training of a typical student of ours. Let's pick one around Ikkyu or Shodan, and provide:
1. How many years the student has trained in the dojo.
2. How many hours the student might practice in the dojo in an average or hypothetical month?
3. How many kata, total, would the student might practice in this average month
4. What was the rate of kata introduction over the years that the student trained in the dojo.

First off you said:
I am not a martial arts professional as I have another career.

So are we to conclude you don’t have a dojo?
How is this comparison going to be realistic if you are not actually a teacher or don’t have a dojo.

1)6~8 years (as I stated previously)
2)40~50 or more
3)all that he knows. At least 12 empty hand and probably 5 or more kobudo kata
4)previously answered

Originally posted by Shuri-te
Once we cover this ground I would be happy to share more information about my background regarding the art I teach and my training habits.
Will you take me up on this simple request to exchange information, or will you take refuge in statements that compare my "non-answers" to someone else's. Statements that are indeed non-answers.

Yet another childish Zhao Dei Wei tactic of “I won’t answer your questions until you answer mine”

Give me a “F-ing” break.


Well the 4 questions you just asked have been answered.

And yet again I ask:
From whom and what organization did you receive your 5th dan and shihan certificates?
What is the name of the art and style you practice?
As long as the topic is on kata which kata do you practice?

 

[Shuri-te]

RyuShiKan,

Thank you for your response.

I would be grateful for one simple clarification.

It is helpful to know that the average student trains in your dojo 40-50 hours per month, and that prior to black belt this student would learn 12 empty hand and 4 kobudo kata, and that it would take 6-8 years to get to Shodan.

Is there any way that you can estimate that in the 40-50 hours of dojo training in some average hypothetical month, how many total kata would be practiced. This is the core question I have asked from the beginning. The other questions only serve to clarify it.

Thank you again.

 

[Shuri-te]

SRyuFighter,

I asked if you knew Dan Smith, and by your response, I gather maybe not. Accept my apologizes if I have misinterpreted.

I am somewhat familiar with your organization. If you don't know of Dan Smith, I heartily recommend that you learn more about him. On the web site shown on your profile page, (www.seibukan.org) there is a special commentary page with a couple of writings of Kyoshi Smith. (Also on the links page is a link to Burnside Karate Academy in Hattiesburg MS, one of Kyoshi's branch schools.)

Kyoshi Smith trained under Zenpo's father in Okinawa and has great insight into the art. He has written some wonderful web postings. Go to:

www.americanblackbeltacademy.com/ref-room/articles.htm

His articles and letters here are a great resource that we should all read as we try to better understand the art and its evolution.

Kyoshi Smith is located in Georgia, and has periodic training sessions in Atlanta and elsewhere for his branch dojos. I am hoping to go to one this summer if I can find the transportation funds.

BTW, I really like your multiart background as indicated in your profile.

 

[SRyuFighter]

Originally posted by Shuri-te
SRyuFighter,

I asked if you knew Dan Smith, and by your response, I gather maybe not. Accept my apologizes if I have misinterpreted.

I am somewhat familiar with your organization. If you don't know of Dan Smith, I heartily recommend that you learn more about him. On the web site shown on your profile page, (www.seibukan.org) there is a special commentary page with a couple of writings of Kyoshi Smith. (Also on the links page is a link to Burnside Karate Academy in Hattiesburg MS, one of Kyoshi's branch schools.)

Kyoshi Smith trained under Zenpo's father in Okinawa and has great insight into the art. He has written some wonderful web postings. Go to:

www.americanblackbeltacademy.com/ref-room/articles.htm



His articles and letters here are a great resource that we should all read as we try to better understand the art and its evolution.

Kyoshi Smith is located in Georgia, and has periodic training sessions in Atlanta and elsewhere for his branch dojos. I am hoping to go to one this summer if I can find the transportation funds.
No sir it was my mistake. While I do not know Dan Smith personally but my sensei does. We are probably going to make a trip down to train with him for a week or so before we go to Sensei Takae's in Tamba Bay.

BTW, I really like your multiart background as indicated in your profile.

THank you very much.

 

[SRyuFighter]

No I don't know Kyoshi Smith personally. I asked my sensei and he said that he knew him and that we might go to his dojo on the way to Sensei Takae's to train this summer.

 

[Shuri-te]

SRyuFighter said:

We might go to his dojo on the way to Sensei Takae's to train this summer.

I see that Sensei Takae's dojo is in Tampa. (http://www.zenryo.com/pic4.cfm). Is that far for you?

I have a question for you. Do you practice the Pinan kata passed on from Chozo Nakama to Zenryo Shimabukuro? I understand that Zenpo may have another video under development where he will show these as they are not on his video of the Kyan kata.

It is also great that his performance of Kusanku is on the web.
http://www.uechi-ryu.com/videos/tc_videos.html