Questions First: What do you want to know about kicks?

[Kung Fu Wang]

And, since your body is turned, you can easily turn the other way and attack with a spinning elbow, spinning chop, or spinning backfist.

After your opponent blocks your right side kick, a push on your leading right arm elbow joint to your left can disable both of your arm.

The side kick will give your opponent a chance to enter your side door. If you turn, he can easily enter your back door.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And if you recoil the roundhouse you can still side-kick from there. In fact, it's faster because you don't hit the ground.

It's faster buy less powerful.

People do this a lot in point fight. In full contact, the 2nd non-landing kick can't generate enough knock down power without landing that leg back down. Your 2nd non-landing kick use only your leg muscle. You can't add in your body rotation.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In WC, our kicks come from the ground. My first MT coach taught not to chamber either.

In long fist we chamber the kick. but we don't recoil the kick. The reason that we chamber the kick is to be able to kick in a certain path. If you don't chamber, your kick can only go 45 degree upward. After stretching, I always pull my knee to touch my chest. This way I can start my kick from the highest position. It will allow me to go 45 degree downward.

In the following clip, his chamber can allow his kick to go "45 degree downward".

 

[dvcochran]

The chamber still comes from the ground. It's just a path from ground to enemy that gets more muscles involved. As a white belt it's chamber - pause - kick. As a black belt you pass through the chamber in a smooth motion to kick.

Even a jumping kick, done properly, the power comes from the ground, because you're pushing off of the ground to give yourself the momentum you swing through.

If you do happen to pause the chamber*, I'd argue your power STILL comes from the ground, because the chamber is like a spring coiling from the initial motion to uncoil in the kick, and your other leg still presses on the ground to give it the power. You do lose momentum, and you do lose some of the energy in the kick, but the power is still coming from the ground.

*Reasons to pause the chamber include: faking (I've used a chamber as a sort of changeup-pitch to throw off the timing of blocks before), timing, reading your opponent as he responds to your leg moving, using the chamber to block a kick, and that's off the top of my head.

The ground has little to do with a jumping kick. If you are standing and jumping (I don't know why) the push from the ground does help but many other factors determine the power of the kick. They are all technique/physique related such leg strength, flexibility, body angle relative to the ground or standing leg etc...

Even if you chamber is perfect, if you are falling back your kick will not be as strong. The ground has nothing to do with it.

In my experience, leaving a leg chambered for any length of time is a bad idea. Multiple kicks, yes. Standing there with one leg up is a bad idea.

 

[dvcochran]

But that's more of a spinning back kick though isn't it?

I was replying to the idea that any back leg side kick is a bad idea.

 

[dvcochran]

Its the same....Bringing it up parallel is more of the minimum for testing.

Although Jake usually keeps it around parallel making it just a little faster.

It takes practice. Driving the knee up with full momentum drives the body around thus making the kick much faster. The parallel chamber is used for forms and to work on balance. It sound like you child competes a lot. If he/she drives the knee and keeps the abs engaged and the body slightly forward

Its the same....Bringing it up parallel is more of the minimum for testing.

Although Jake usually keeps it around parallel making it just a little faster.

The parallel leg is used in the beauty of forms and for working on balance. And used to teach how to kick for beginners. It sounds like Jake is past the beginner stage. Driving the knee up helps drive the body around for the kick. It is an advance technique which is very effective. Keep the abs engaged and the torso up and slightly forward. It requires more flexibility than the knee parallel kick but it is makes a much faster and harder kick.

 

[dvcochran]

Mui Thai boxers tend not to chamber, and they get a ton of power in them.

I don't get it. They are chambering most of their kicks. Differently but still a chamber.

 

[dvcochran]

I think this is a good video example. He is essentially aiming his knee at the target during the drive. Then rotating the correct amount for a good roundhouse.

 

[jobo]

The ground has little to do with a jumping kick. If you are standing and jumping (I don't know why) the push from the ground does help but many other factors determine the power of the kick. They are all technique/physique related such leg strength, flexibility, body angle relative to the ground or standing leg etc...

Even if you chamber is perfect, if you are falling back your kick will not be as strong. The ground has nothing to do with it.

In my experience, leaving a leg chambered for any length of time is a bad idea. Multiple kicks, yes. Standing there with one leg up is a bad idea.

The ground has a great deal to do with the extra power of a jumping kick, equal and opposite forces and all that, the more energy you Transfer into the ground the more equal and opposite energy is returned in to your body you body then has X kj more energy in it, which if you can channel a % percentage of in to your kick means a harder kick. No ground , no extra energy

Try kicking stood on a mattress, to see how much energy is comming from your standing/ jumping leg

 

[skribs]

It's faster buy less powerful.

People do this a lot in point fight. In full contact, the 2nd non-landing kick can't generate enough knock down power without landing that leg back down. Your 2nd non-landing kick use only your leg muscle. You can't add in your body rotation.

It's been plenty powerful enough for me to knock people flat on their butt plenty of times. You can also do different levels of the kick and aim for effective targets much faster (i.e. first kick with momentum is to the ribs, second kick is to the knee in the same motion you'd use to step down from the recoil).

The ground has little to do with a jumping kick. If you are standing and jumping (I don't know why) the push from the ground does help but many other factors determine the power of the kick. They are all technique/physique related such leg strength, flexibility, body angle relative to the ground or standing leg etc...

Even if you chamber is perfect, if you are falling back your kick will not be as strong. The ground has nothing to do with it.

In my experience, leaving a leg chambered for any length of time is a bad idea. Multiple kicks, yes. Standing there with one leg up is a bad idea.

None of our jumping kicks do their impact when you're falling. At least not when done correctly. I agree that leaving the leg chambered for an extended period is bad. I'm talking about just a split second to throw off your opponents' timing. As soon as they whiff on a block or grab, you release it.

 

[oftheherd1]

Everything works well if you don't know how to counter it. Or if you do it before they counter.
I'm going to rank punching them in the head as being a higher percentage move than trying to kick them with the other foot.

I think you are correct. I have a hard time thinking in terms of competition defense. And I would have to think a while on where I would want to kick. Knees would probably be my preferred target so I don't have to kick as high from an already unbalanced position, but I guess that wouldn't be allowed in competition. It would also depend on which of my legs on which of the opponent's side. All the while wondering what my opponent is doing just holding my leg and not continuing an attack. (@skribs did you encounter any problems along those lines?)

Too much to think about. A quick punch to the head, face, or chin (if your legs aren't too long) all sound like quick and effective options.

EDIT: I see you have answered some of my questions above.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I am actually curious where the leg check plays into things.

Is it taught in traditional styles? And if so is it done for the low kicks your cant block with your hand?

Personally its a mystery to myself.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I am actually curious where the leg check plays into things.

Is it taught in traditional styles? And if so is it done for the low kicks your cant block with your hand?

Personally its a mystery to myself.

We certainly teach it. Useful not only against low kicks, but in some circumstances higher kicks as well.

 

[oftheherd1]

...

I did not find any examples online, of Karate teaching front kick (Mae Geri) as a heel strike. Each school teaches the kick slightly differently, but each one teaches to strike with the ball of the foot.

The term you were looking for, is "assumption."

Things change. When I studied TKD in the mid-60s, we kicked with the ball of our foot.

 

[wab25]

Things change. When I studied TKD in the mid-60s, we kicked with the ball of our foot.

I don't doubt that at all. I was correcting a statement (generalization / assumption) that was made earlier saying: that Karate differed from TKD because a Karate front kick strikes with the heel, while TKD strikes with the ball. When I pointed out that My sensei taught the front kick to strike with the ball of the foot, he said that one school does not define an art, and since most other Karate schools teach to strike with the heel, in a front kick, his statement was still true. In the post you quoted I was showing various, unrelated karate schools teaching to strike with the ball of the foot. I found many more references but only included a few. What I did not find were references to Karate teaching the front kick to strike with the heel.

But again, I was wrong... a TKD BB read in a book somewhere, that Karate taught the front kick strikes with the heel.... I stand corrected.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I don't get it. They are chambering most of their kicks. Differently but still a chamber.

He's not chambering, he's kicking straight through the chamber. In certain styles, you're not taught to chamber, but just to swing direcrtly through. So even if you're seeing a transition that you can identify as a chamber, its not the intent of the striker, nor how it's practiced.

 

[pdg]

He's not chambering, he's kicking straight through the chamber. In certain styles, you're not taught to chamber, but just to swing direcrtly through. So even if you're seeing a transition that you can identify as a chamber, its not the intent of the striker, nor how it's practiced.

Seeing as TKD is seemingly famous for chambering kicks, here's something to consider regarding this statement.

Once you get past maybe green belt in TKD you realise that the chamber isn't a static position you assume on the way to a kick - it's not lift, then chamber, then kick, then retract to chamber, then foot down.

It's all one fluid movement, and to point at a proper TKD chamber in a video you'll have to frame grab.

The retraction after a kick is the same, but going through that chamber position gives you the option of a second (or third, fourth, etc.) kick instead of simply falling forward.

 

[pdg]

Things change. When I studied TKD in the mid-60s, we kicked with the ball of our foot.

I study TKD now, and we kick with the ball of our foot for many kicks.

Including a side kick variant...

 

[oftheherd1]

I study TKD now, and we kick with the ball of our foot for many kicks.

Including a side kick variant...

I should have been more clear. Most of our foot kicks were with the ball of the foot. Some were with the edge or heel of the foot. We practiced a lot to get the foot to strike with the toes as close to the shin as we could. You couldn't imagine how surprised I was when I started studying Hapkido and found we used the top of the instep for many of our kicks.

 

[pdg]

I should have been more clear. Most of our foot kicks were with the ball of the foot. Some were with the edge or heel of the foot. We practiced a lot to get the foot to strike with the toes as close to the shin as we could. You couldn't imagine how surprised I was when I started studying Hapkido and found we used the top of the instep for many of our kicks.

Ah, fair enough.

Admittedly though, we do use both if the kick supports it (ball and instep).

Instep is used in sparring - that's where the padded booties are padded, and you're going for points instead of damage.

Rest of practice is generally ball (although a lot of the kids and the like stick to instep).