Questions First: What do you want to know about kicks?

[Martial D]

Ok, serious question then. Advantages and disadvantages of chambering a round kick?

 

[skribs]

Sure.

But it ain’t a push. It’s a drill through. Definitely not the same thing.

I guess that might be my question on kicks: why do so many people assume a front kick or side kick or back kick is a push? It isn’t. It is a strike and it drives through the target. Definitely NOT a push by my reconning.

That is one of my son’s Sensei' pet peeves....pushing the side kick instead of striking with it.

I practice all of those kicks as (primarily) a strike, but also a push.

Change the speed, change the range, change the intent - it's a push, which can be very effective in those circumstances.

Depends if you want damage or clearance I suppose.

I can snap a block with a strike, or I can shove it over with a push - it's a choice thing.


As to the actual question, why people assume it's a push - I can only surmise it's because they've seen it demonstrated slowly (or tried it themselves, incorrectly for a strike) and the outcome was a push - so obviously they're pushing kicks...

Of course they CAN be as a push. I’ve never done it that way.

I've learned both the push and the kick. To me, it's that the front kick is relatively weak (compared to almost any other kick we do in Taekwondo, it's basically a jab) and takes a bit more training to use effectively. The side kick is also pretty slow, and takes a bit more training to turn it into a snap kick than a push. However, it's very easy to do the pushing versions, so that's what people find effective early on.

In Taekwondo, there's the added challenge of electronic scoring systems, which place emphasis on the roundhouse kick as the point-scorer (with the heel sensors recently being added). Side kicks and push kicks are generally setup kicks, while roundhouse kicks are usually your point scorers.

Then there's the fact that they CAN be a pushing kick. Have you tried doing a pushing hook kick or roundhouse kick?

People who use it as a push kick aren't "doing it wrong". They're simply doing a different technique, or using a different application of the technique. Pushes are effective crowd control and set-up techniques.

Maybe training in one certain style will make a person knowledgeable about kicking...within that certain style. At least within that particular organization within that style. Or maybe just within that particular dojo.

Maybe if catching/grabbing a kicking leg were utilized it would make the kicker more familiar with real world pitfalls of kicking. And make their kicks so, so much better out of sheer necessity.

Maybe someday people who train the arts will be able to distinguish between "dojo kicking" and kicking done outside the dojo.

Maybe someday people who have used kicks in self defense situations will agree to teach some classes to those who haven't.

Maybe people who spend time on snow covered ground and uneven terrain would have different experiences and opinions on kicking.

Maybe what we think we know - because we were told by others who think they know - will change for the better.

I wouldn't let my nephew take driving lessons from somebody who didn't know how to drive. Regardless of how cool their daddy's car was.

I'm going to quote the great Alex Trebek here: I'm sorry, your answer must be in the form of a question.

You bring up a lot of different experiences people can have, but I'm not sure what you want done with or how I'm supposed to take it.

There are PRO and CON for rechamber.

PRO: Harder for your opponent to catch your kicking leg.

CON:

1. You miss the chance to close in the distance and use your kick to set up your punch.
2. You are not fully utilized your forward momentum.
3. You don't have 100% confidence in your kick. You may think that your kick may miss the target, or doesn't have enough knock down power.
4. If your opponent catches your ankle, your rechamber can pull your opponent in.
5. You have just violated a basic MA principle that "Each kick can be a step. Each step can be a kick.'

If your opponent does catch your kicking leg, you want to move forward, give him all your body weight on his arm, and see if his arm can handle it.

1. You can still do that if you rechamber. In fact, you have better balance and control over how you step forward if you chamber. And believe it or not, it will be faster, because you're using your muscles instead of only gravity. It's sort of the idea of how a bullet that's dropped and a bullet that's shot will hit the ground at the same time. Except this is a bullet that's shot vs. a bullet that's thrown down.

2. Once your target is no longer in range (meaning you have pushed him back, which will happen with a push or a snap kick) whether you continue that momentum or not is irrelevant. You should have control over your momentum.

3. This has nothing to do with confidence in your kick. It's what you do after your kick. You don't leave a cross punch hanging out there, you come back to your guard position or throw another punch. The same with kicks.

4. I see this as a pro. If he stays at range, he can attack your ankle or knee with impunity, or pull you down. If he's closer, you can use your arms.

5. You rechamber and step forward. Or rechamber and step back. Or rechamber and kick again. It's not violating that principle at all. We rechamber after all of our kicks, and 95% of the time we step forward after we kick.

You are making generalizations. You are making incorrect generalizations. Every Karate dojo I have trained in or watched a class in, teaches the front kick strikes with the ball of the foot.

Here are some examples:

Mae Geri Keage (Front Snap Kick) & Mawate (Turning around) Tutorial

I did not find any examples online, of Karate teaching front kick (Mae Geri) as a heel strike. Each school teaches the kick slightly differently, but each one teaches to strike with the ball of the foot.

The term you were looking for, is "assumption."

All I know is what I read a long time ago. But, like I said - I want to talk about variations of the kicks. I'm not going to generalize in my writing what other arts do, because I don't study them and obviously can't give much on them. What I can do is look at a variant I've seen from other arts or schools and discuss it, in the context of the technique itself.

Ok, serious question then. Advantages and disadvantages of chambering a round kick?

You're using different terminology than me so I have to clarify - what do you mean by round kick? Do you mean roundhouse kick (point your knee across your body and kick to the ribs), crescent kick or arc kick (an elliptical motion in front of you to strike to the face with the side of your foot), or a spinning heel/spinning hook kick to the face?

 

[Martial D]

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Ok, serious question then. Advantages and disadvantages of chambering a round kick?

I was taught both, in different styles. For chambering, control and being able to change the kick if needed. For not chambering, it encourages you to use all your power and not limit it.

 

[Buka]

I'm going to quote the great Alex Trebek here: I'm sorry, your answer must be in the form of a question.

You bring up a lot of different experiences people can have, but I'm not sure what you want done with or how I'm supposed to take it.

What I want is for you to stay as focused and curious about kicking as you were from the git go of your training. Forget about what belt you are and go get em, bro. And make it a true Daily Double. I know you got it in you. Stay hungry.

 

[CB Jones]

In Taekwondo, there's the added challenge of electronic scoring systems, which place emphasis on the roundhouse kick as the point-scorer (with the heel sensors recently being added). Side kicks and push kicks are generally setup kicks, while roundhouse kicks are usually your point scorers.

In your style of Taekwondo...

In my son's style, the side kick isn't just a setup kick. It is used as a very good technique on its own and is a big part of the curriculum. And is not slow if you put the work in training it.

Just shows the differences in styles.

 

[skribs]

@Martial D

I was taught both, in different styles. For chambering, control and being able to change the kick if needed. For not chambering, it encourages you to use all your power and not limit it.

I have never been taught to NOT chamber the kick. What you're doing by not chambering is making the kick slower and weaker. You engage less muscles when you kick without a chamber. With no chamber, you use only your hips and your body's rotation. With the chamber, you add in your thighs, which adds in the linear power similar to a front snap kick.

I am looking at getting an accelerometer which would really help me test the difference, but just in how BOB reacts to my kicks, I've not seen not chambering as more powerful than chambering.

Even if it ends up with more power, it will be slower and more of a push.

In your style of Taekwondo...

In my son's style, the side kick isn't just a setup kick. It is used as a very good technique on its own and is a big part of the curriculum. And is not slow if you put the work in training it.

I'm explaining reasons why the push kick is more common.

Side kicks with any amount of power in them (i.e. not a check kick) are going to be slower than a front kick or a roundhouse kick, unless you neglect the other two.

 

[CB Jones]

Side kicks with any amount of power in them (i.e. not a check kick) are going to be slower than a front kick or a roundhouse kick, unless you neglect the other two.

And I am respectfully disagreeing with that.

The side kick can be just as fast as the roundhouse if it is trained correctly and you develop the strength and flexibility in your hips.

 

[Buka]

Side kicks are nasty quick. Powerful ones even more so.

 

[Martial D]

@Martial D



I have never been taught to NOT chamber the kick. What you're doing by not chambering is making the kick slower and weaker. You engage less muscles when you kick without a chamber. With no chamber, you use only your hips and your body's rotation. With the chamber, you add in your thighs, which adds in the linear power similar to a front snap kick.

I am looking at getting an accelerometer which would really help me test the difference, but just in how BOB reacts to my kicks, I've not seen not chambering as more powerful than chambering.

Even if it ends up with more power, it will be slower and more of a push.



I'm explaining reasons why the push kick is more common.

Side kicks with any amount of power in them (i.e. not a check kick) are going to be slower than a front kick or a roundhouse kick, unless you neglect the other two.

Mui Thai boxers tend not to chamber, and they get a ton of power in them.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

@Martial D



I have never been taught to NOT chamber the kick. What you're doing by not chambering is making the kick slower and weaker. You engage less muscles when you kick without a chamber. With no chamber, you use only your hips and your body's rotation. With the chamber, you add in your thighs, which adds in the linear power similar to a front snap kick.

I am looking at getting an accelerometer which would really help me test the difference, but just in how BOB reacts to my kicks, I've not seen not chambering as more powerful than chambering.

Even if it ends up with more power, it will be slower and more of a push.

This was specifically taught for roundhouse, just to clarify, other kicks would be chambered. And you've likely not been taught it as we practice different styles.

 

[CB Jones]

Side kicks are nasty quick. Powerful ones even more so.

The side kick was one of the favortie techiniques of the Founder of the dojo Jake trains in. It was one of the techniques he focused on on his dissertation for his Doctorate.

 

[Jaeimseu]

And I am respectfully disagreeing with that.

The side kick can be just as fast as the roundhouse if it is trained correctly and you develop the strength and flexibility in your hips.

Are we comparing apples to apples? A Kukkiwon Taekwondo back leg round kick is quite a bit faster than a back leg sidekick with the body turning in the same direction. A roundhouse kick that travels a wider arc could be similar speed or slower than a sidekick. And lead leg versions could easily be similar speed.


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[Kung Fu Wang]

The side kick has the following weakness:

- You will have one long leading arm and one short back arm at that moment. If your opponent uses your leading arm to jam your back arm, you will be in trouble.
- It's easier for your opponent to catch at your ankle.

The roundhouse kick is easy to be caught.

The front kick doesn't have these issues.

IMO, front kick > side kick > roundhouse kick.

 

[CB Jones]

Are we comparing apples to apples? A Kukkiwon Taekwondo back leg round kick is quite a bit faster than a back leg sidekick with the body turning in the same direction. A roundhouse kick that travels a wider arc could be similar speed or slower than a sidekick. And lead leg versions could easily be similar speed.


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I am referring to the front or lead leg side kicks.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I am referring to the front or lead leg side kicks.

In that case, I agree with you. Both kicks are fast.


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[Kung Fu Wang]

The safest kick is the foot sweep. Even if you don't sweep your opponent down, it can interrupt your opponent's forward attack.

The next safest kick is front kick to the knee joint. If your opponent tries to catch it, both of your hands can hit on his face.

 

[Martial D]

The safest kick is the foot sweep. Even if you don't sweep your opponent down, it can interrupt your opponent's forward attack.

The next safest kick is front kick to the knee joint. If your opponent tries to catch it, both of your hands can hit on his face.

What if his face isn't my type? ;P

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

From a wrestler point of view, all kicks are bad idea. If you have to move in to get your opponent's leg, when your opponent's leg moves toward you, that can be a free gift.

One day I was challenged by a wrestler. After we agreeded that kick and punch were allowed. Since I didn't know how good his leg catching skill was. In the whole fight, I didn't deliver any kick.

 

[Martial D]

From a wrestler point of view, all kicks are bad idea. If you have to move in to get your opponent's leg, when your opponent's leg moves toward you, that can be a free gift.

One day I was challenged by a wrestler. After we agreeded that kick and punch were allowed. Since I didn't know how good his leg catching skill was. In the whole fight, I didn't deliver any kick.

I wouldn't either. There are some guys I train with that have really really sharp wrestling, and if I kick im done. So I don't anymore.

Im not the greatest kicker though. If I had those crisp TKD kicks I might hazard them more often.