Questions First: What do you want to know about kicks?

[Kung Fu Wang]

dup, deleted.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

dup, deleted.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Not jump side kick but regular side kick. This is the way that I learned TKD side kick from my TKD friend.

1. Knee up - foot point down,
2. Knee side way - foot point to opponent.
3. Kick out.
4. Pull back - knee side way, foot point to opponent.
5. Knee up - foot point down.
6. Leg drop.

I like TKD side kick better than my long fist side kick because it has more detail.

Keep in mind that TKD is not homogeneous, and different systems vary slightly in the way they do these kicks. I teach the sidekick both as you've described and like the ITF version someone posted earlier.

 

[JR 137]

Why do you need to pull back your kicking leg? Why not just drop right down?

My former teacher emphasized not dropping the kick straight down far more than my current teacher. It’s like he had OCD about it. I visited him back in February, and I had a chuckle when I heard his rant to a few students. His rationale is two fold...

When you don’t rechamber, it’s far easier to catch the kick. Let’s say it’s blocked or doesn’t land cleanly; the leg is staying there, at the opponent’s hands for longer than it should be, giving them extra time to grab it and do whatever they want.

Second reason - dropping it straight down compromises their balance and integrity of the stance. Drop it straight down and it’s far easier to be swept. He did this repeatedly to me when I first started sparring to drive home this point.

It’s no different than a boxer throwing a punch. The punch should come back quickly to protect the puncher. If a boxer drops his hands straight down after a punch, he’s going to get countered easily. If you drop that kick straight down, you’ll get countered easily; in a different way, but the same outcome.

My current teacher isn’t as OCD about it, but it’s still emphasized.

 

[Danny T]

Follow-up question. What is an over wrap? Very good question. It doesn't come into play much at my school because grabbing the leg isn't allowed in WT sparring rules. We teach defenses against kicks which include grabs, but we don't teach the counters to those defenses (at least not yet).

Kicking leg is overwrapped by the opponent's arm and lifted up while punching the kicker.
The lift, punch and stiff arm keeps the kicker back while helping keep the kicking leg extended. Allows for leg sweeps, trips, and other nasty attacks.

 

[wab25]

I do want to do pros and cons of variants. For example, the Karate front kick vs. Taekwondo front kick. I'm guessing the majority of it is either preference, the range of the art, or the expected targets. The Karate kick uses the heel, while the Taekwondo kick uses the instep or the ball of the foot. I'm guessing this is because Karate operates at a closer range, and because Karate expects their kicks to go for lower targets, where the heel makes more sense (see my answer to the stomp question). These are guesses as to why Karate chose it over Taekwondo. There's also the possibility that TKD has sunk more R&D into kicks and so TKD is simply better at them.

Given this information, I guess I will go tell my Shotokan Sensei that he is doing it and teaching it wrong. He is teaching us to use the ball of the foot for our front kicks. He must be confused. He will be glad to learn that his Sensei (Sensei Takahashi) goofed, and taught him TKD by accident.... using the ball of the foot in a front kick. What would he know?

 

[pdg]

So you're talking about a jumping or flying side kick, then

By "lower leg" he's not referring to the supporting leg.

Lower leg = calf, shin and foot.
Upper leg = thigh.

 

[Flying Crane]

My former teacher emphasized not dropping the kick straight down far more than my current teacher. It’s like he had OCD about it. I visited him back in February, and I had a chuckle when I heard his rant to a few students. His rationale is two fold...

When you don’t rechamber, it’s far easier to catch the kick. Let’s say it’s blocked or doesn’t land cleanly; the leg is staying there, at the opponent’s hands for longer than it should be, giving them extra time to grab it and do whatever they want.

Second reason - dropping it straight down compromises their balance and integrity of the stance. Drop it straight down and it’s far easier to be swept. He did this repeatedly to me when I first started sparring to drive home this point.

It’s no different than a boxer throwing a punch. The punch should come back quickly to protect the puncher. If a boxer drops his hands straight down after a punch, he’s going to get countered easily. If you drop that kick straight down, you’ll get countered easily; in a different way, but the same outcome.

My current teacher isn’t as OCD about it, but it’s still emphasized.

Like most everything, it depends.

There may be times when it is ok to just drop the foot down. Such as, if you land a hard side-kick and drive through the enemy. Damage is done, he is displaced backwards. Ok to drop the foot down.

There may be times when it makes more sense to retract the kick before placing the foot back on the ground. You throw a side-kick, the enemy blocks or evades and is hoping you drop your foot down which brings your face into range of his punch. Or he is hoping to sweep your foot when you put it down. If he hasn’t grabbed your foot, then retract first.

Few things are absolutes. Recognize when it makes sense to do this, or do that.

 

[JR 137]

Like most everything, it depends.

There may be times when it is ok to just drop the foot down. Such as, if you land a hard side-kick and drive through the enemy. Damage is done, he is displaced backwards. Ok to drop the foot down.

There may be times when it makes more sense to retract the kick before placing the foot back on the ground. You throw a side-kick, the enemy blocks or evades and is hoping you drop your foot down which brings your face into range of his punch. Or he is hoping to sweep your foot when you put it down. If he hasn’t grabbed your foot, then retract first.

Few things are absolutes. Recognize when it makes sense to do this, or do that.

Of course there are times to drop it straight down. There are exceptions to every rule. IMO retracting it is the more conservative approach as there’s less chance to get countered, and I find retracting the kick works more often than stepping straight down.

And fully retracting the kick to the exact starting position is textbook. In sparring or fighting, nothing is exactly textbook. Take front kick for example. I’ll kick out, then retract at the knee, but not bring my foot all the way back, so basically my hip and knee are both at 90 degrees. From there I’ll drop my foot down rather than fully retracting, but it’s not straight down.

 

[wab25]

If you have never practiced retracting the kick, you probably won't be able to in a fight or competition. By practicing the retraction, it should give you more options, including the option to step straight down. It should allow you more freedom to put the leg down where you need it to be in a given situation.

 

[skribs]

Given this information, I guess I will go tell my Shotokan Sensei that he is doing it and teaching it wrong. He is teaching us to use the ball of the foot for our front kicks. He must be confused. He will be glad to learn that his Sensei (Sensei Takahashi) goofed, and taught him TKD by accident.... using the ball of the foot in a front kick. What would he know?

Yes, he should be proud he's doing a TKD kick instead of a karate kick! (Tongue-in-cheek)

I'm making generalizations, of course. Unless all schools in the art teach it the exact same way, I may be wrong for some schools. But in general, I believe karate teaches the heel more often than TKD.

By "lower leg" he's not referring to the supporting leg.

Lower leg = calf, shin and foot.
Upper leg = thigh.

Ok, I'm an idiot.

Like most everything, it depends.

There may be times when it is ok to just drop the foot down. Such as, if you land a hard side-kick and drive through the enemy. Damage is done, he is displaced backwards. Ok to drop the foot down.

There may be times when it makes more sense to retract the kick before placing the foot back on the ground. You throw a side-kick, the enemy blocks or evades and is hoping you drop your foot down which brings your face into range of his punch. Or he is hoping to sweep your foot when you put it down. If he hasn’t grabbed your foot, then retract first.

Few things are absolutes. Recognize when it makes sense to do this, or do that.

In the times where it is "okay" to drop the foot down, controlling the motion will not be worse. In times where it is better to control the motion, just dropping the leg will be worse. Even if you're following through with a push, I don't see a reason NOT to control the recoil motion.

Another reason is if you're going to do another kick before you put your foot down. i.e. kick middle-low, or low-middle, or do side kick-hook kick.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yes, he should be proud he's doing a TKD kick instead of a karate kick! (Tongue-in-cheek)

I'm making generalizations, of course. Unless all schools in the art teach it the exact same way, I may be wrong for some schools. But in general, I believe karate teaches the heel more often than TKD.



Ok, I'm an idiot.



In the times where it is "okay" to drop the foot down, controlling the motion will not be worse. In times where it is better to control the motion, just dropping the leg will be worse. Even if you're following through with a push, I don't see a reason NOT to control the recoil motion.

Another reason is if you're going to do another kick before you put your foot down. i.e. kick middle-low, or low-middle, or do side kick-hook kick.

Sure.

But it ain’t a push. It’s a drill through. Definitely not the same thing.

I guess that might be my question on kicks: why do so many people assume a front kick or side kick or back kick is a push? It isn’t. It is a strike and it drives through the target. Definitely NOT a push by my reconning.

 

[CB Jones]

Sure.

But it ain’t a push. It’s a drill through. Definitely not the same thing.

I guess that might be my question on kicks: why do so many people assume a front kick or side kick or back kick is a push? It isn’t. It is a strike and it drives through the target. Definitely NOT a push by my reconning.

That is one of my son’s Sensei' pet peeves....pushing the side kick instead of striking with it.

 

[Buka]

Maybe training in one certain style will make a person knowledgeable about kicking...within that certain style. At least within that particular organization within that style. Or maybe just within that particular dojo.

Maybe if catching/grabbing a kicking leg were utilized it would make the kicker more familiar with real world pitfalls of kicking. And make their kicks so, so much better out of sheer necessity.

Maybe someday people who train the arts will be able to distinguish between "dojo kicking" and kicking done outside the dojo.

Maybe someday people who have used kicks in self defense situations will agree to teach some classes to those who haven't.

Maybe people who spend time on snow covered ground and uneven terrain would have different experiences and opinions on kicking.

Maybe what we think we know - because we were told by others who think they know - will change for the better.

I wouldn't let my nephew take driving lessons from somebody who didn't know how to drive. Regardless of how cool their daddy's car was.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When you don’t rechamber, it’s far easier to catch the kick.

There are PRO and CON for rechamber.

PRO: Harder for your opponent to catch your kicking leg.

CON:

1. You miss the chance to close in the distance and use your kick to set up your punch.
2. You are not fully utilized your forward momentum.
3. You don't have 100% confidence in your kick. You may think that your kick may miss the target, or doesn't have enough knock down power.
4. If your opponent catches your ankle, your rechamber can pull your opponent in.
5. You have just violated a basic MA principle that "Each kick can be a step. Each step can be a kick.'

If your opponent does catch your kicking leg, you want to move forward, give him all your body weight on his arm, and see if his arm can handle it.

 

[wab25]

I'm making generalizations, of course. Unless all schools in the art teach it the exact same way, I may be wrong for some schools. But in general, I believe karate teaches the heel more often than TKD.

You are making generalizations. You are making incorrect generalizations. Every Karate dojo I have trained in or watched a class in, teaches the front kick strikes with the ball of the foot.

Here are some examples:

Mae Geri Keage (Front Snap Kick) & Mawate (Turning around) Tutorial

I did not find any examples online, of Karate teaching front kick (Mae Geri) as a heel strike. Each school teaches the kick slightly differently, but each one teaches to strike with the ball of the foot.

The term you were looking for, is "assumption."

 

[pdg]

.
I guess that might be my question on kicks: why do so many people assume a front kick or side kick or back kick is a push? It isn’t. It is a strike and it drives through the target. Definitely NOT a push by my reconning.

I practice all of those kicks as (primarily) a strike, but also a push.

Change the speed, change the range, change the intent - it's a push, which can be very effective in those circumstances.

Depends if you want damage or clearance I suppose.

I can snap a block with a strike, or I can shove it over with a push - it's a choice thing.


As to the actual question, why people assume it's a push - I can only surmise it's because they've seen it demonstrated slowly (or tried it themselves, incorrectly for a strike) and the outcome was a push - so obviously they're pushing kicks...

 

[pdg]

Ok, I'm an idiot.

Nah, I read it the same way you did at first too

 

[Flying Crane]

I practice all of those kicks as (primarily) a strike, but also a push.

Change the speed, change the range, change the intent - it's a push, which can be very effective in those circumstances.

Depends if you want damage or clearance I suppose.

I can snap a block with a strike, or I can shove it over with a push - it's a choice thing.


As to the actual question, why people assume it's a push - I can only surmise it's because they've seen it demonstrated slowly (or tried it themselves, incorrectly for a strike) and the outcome was a push - so obviously they're pushing kicks...

Of course they CAN be as a push. I’ve never done it that way.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I practice all of those kicks as (primarily) a strike, but also a push.

Every kick can be a step. Every step can be a kick. A "step" on your opponent's knee joint can cause more damage than just a "kick" to the knee.