Question to all teacher, just a curiosity.

[tradrockrat]

Yea, I have talked in the past with a guy who was studying...let's say a MA (not fair saying what style, because it is not the MA's fault). He was taught kinda that way, of course not shoot, but in case of self defence create the more damage possible and then flee as fast as you can.

Hate to hear stories like that.

However, I think the concept of creating maximum damage has it's place. The word "maximum" is dangerous, but it doesn't neccessarily mean kill or destroy. I taught my students to inflict all the damge they needed to safely leave the scene. If that meant that the opponent needed to be knocked out, so be it. If that means knocking them down, even better, but if it meant breaking his arm so he drops the stick, then that's what they need to do. Usually, people like to say that this is teaching to do the minumum damage, but in reality, you have no idea what the minimum is before you actually have to fight (assuming running away didn't work or wasn't viable). But you can have a good idea of weather or not they are still a threat AFTER you inflict some sort of damage. If not, you stop, but if they are still a threat you do more damage.

I taught constant assesment, really.

 

[charyuop]

Hate to hear stories like that.

However, I think the concept of creating maximum damage has it's place. The word "maximum" is dangerous, but it doesn't neccessarily mean kill or destroy. I taught my students to inflict all the damge they needed to safely leave the scene. If that meant that the opponent needed to be knocked out, so be it. If that means knocking them down, even better, but if it meant breaking his arm so he drops the stick, then that's what they need to do. Usually, people like to say that this is teaching to do the minumum damage, but in reality, you have no idea what the minimum is before you actually have to fight (assuming running away didn't work or wasn't viable). But you can have a good idea of weather or not they are still a threat AFTER you inflict some sort of damage. If not, you stop, but if they are still a threat you do more damage.

I taught constant assesment, really.

Fortunately I have never face a real fight situation, but it had to happen to me I doubt I would be in the position of doing a constant assessment. The adrenaline, fear and will to get out of there alive change the situation from a dojo. That is also a reason why when they mention use of excessive strength I usually laugh. What can be easily seen as excessive or too excessive in a court of law after days that the fact happened, in the moment, which usually it is few seconds, might seem the only reasonable thing to do...or even better it will come out by instinct from all your training.

 

[loyalonehk]

In all Martial Arts of course there are ways to kill the opponent. In all the demo you see around you always see techniques carried out in full, meaning block a punch, hitting the opponent a few times, dropping him/her on the ground and the hit more times.
That all creates a huge amount of damage if done in reality. I know that a student has to learn everything in full...
But how many teachers tell students that what they learn can't actually be used in a self defense occasion? Creating that amount of damage, even if for self defence, would send you streight to jail for excessive use of strength.

So I was wondering how you face this subject with your students...

The Golden Rule I have always believed in; "It's better to know how to and not need to, than to need to and not know how". Also, most of the combo's and multiple strike techniques are to be looked at, as if you were looking at a drill or boxing combination. In the street or combat, it is a rare, rare occasion to see someone do a typical technique (reguardless of style) from start to finish, just like they do it in class. You will use a bit of this and a bit of that, adjusting to the situation and fighting to stay alive or end the confrontation in your favor. In a self-defense scenario it is up to the moral character of the individual to know when to stop and how far to take it. If someone bumps you or some minor thing like that, obviously your not going to go all out and put the guy/gal in hospital or the morg. However, (as in my situation) when training Marines or soldiers that are going to Iraq or some other combat zone, I want them to know how to Win at any cost! "Survive The Day" is a Kajupit moto. If you train to count on the one hit knock out, you will be sadlly mistaken when you run into that Friday night street thug that knows how to take a punch. Dont train with stop signs, hesitation can get you killed. Part of the MA's development is self control, discipline, integrity, loyalty, etc... Its all part of the big picture.

Here's a little guidline that I picked up over the years and like to share with my students. It's an old Warrior Code / Escalation of Force:

ESCALATION OF FORCE



NO MAN IS ALLOWED TO TOUCH OR GRAB A WARRIOR TRAINED IN THE ARTS.
TECHNIQUES OF CONTROL SHOULD BE UTILIZED, SUCH AS JOINT-LOCKING , THROWING AND PRESSURE POINTS, TO DETER AGGRESSION.

IF THE ENEMY ATTEMPTS TO STRIKE A WARRIOR:
Then blood can be drawn to deter further attack. Striking techniques, such as kicking and punching, are utilized.

IF A WARRIOR IS STRUCK AND BLOOD IS DRAWN:
Then he/she is instructed to use chokes, joint-breaking or knockout techniques to disable the attacker and deter further aggression.

IF THE ENEMY ATTEMPS TO KILL THE WARRIOR:
Then he/she is instructed to kill the enemy in self-defense.

"Mercy to your enemy, is cruelty to yourself."


This code was followed for thousands of years in asia, and is still carried on by some warrior sects of today.


Enough rambling from me... Just my .5C's

"Survive The Day!" :soapbox:

 

[still learning]

Hello, I knew some people (work along side them a short while)...they tell me when they get into a fight! ...They keeping hitting till the other person cannot move or get up. They just keep hitting,fist,stick,bats...it doesn't matter..the idea is to keep pounding so the other person cannot get back up to fight back.

They have been in and out of jail so many times for all kinds of NICE stuffs.

This hitting till you are out...comes from there past experiences....(gang fights too).

 

[tellner]

Here's a little guidline that I picked up over the years and like to share with my students. It's an old Warrior Code / Escalation of Force:

ESCALATION OF FORCE



NO MAN IS ALLOWED TO TOUCH OR GRAB A WARRIOR TRAINED IN THE ARTS.
TECHNIQUES OF CONTROL SHOULD BE UTILIZED, SUCH AS JOINT-LOCKING , THROWING AND PRESSURE POINTS, TO DETER AGGRESSION.

IF THE ENEMY ATTEMPTS TO STRIKE A WARRIOR:
Then blood can be drawn to deter further attack. Striking techniques, such as kicking and punching, are utilized.

IF A WARRIOR IS STRUCK AND BLOOD IS DRAWN:
Then he/she is instructed to use chokes, joint-breaking or knockout techniques to disable the attacker and deter further aggression.

IF THE ENEMY ATTEMPS TO KILL THE WARRIOR:
Then he/she is instructed to kill the enemy in self-defense.

"Mercy to your enemy, is cruelty to yourself."

I agree with the general idea, but am a little iffy about the specifics.

First, "followed for thousands of years in Asia" seems a little dubious, like almost all Ancient and Venerable Traditions of the Mystic Orient. History in the exact modern sense is difficult when you are researching people who mostly didn't write a whole lot and tended to live by their weapons and die violently and obscurely

Second, the exact progression you lay out is pretty complicated. Now, let's see, he tried to punch me, so I can use punches or kicks against him but not throws or locks. I've got a mild concussion, but it didn't actually break the skin, so that means I can put the lock on but not actually break it except that I got dizzy and fell down and skinned my elbow, so now it's OK to finish the lock...

Deadly physical force, non-deadly physical force, "reasonable fear" and "immediate and otherwise unavoidable" are perhaps more applicable in this day and age. And they'll sound a lot better in the interrogation room or in front of the jury.

 

[tellner]

Hello, I knew some people (work along side them a short while)...they tell me when they get into a fight! ...They keeping hitting till the other person cannot move or get up. They just keep hitting,fist,stick,bats...it doesn't matter..the idea is to keep pounding so the other person cannot get back up to fight back.

...

This hitting till you are out...comes from there past experiences....(gang fights too).

That's been real martial arts(tm) since before we climbed down out of the trees. Hit him. Keep hitting him. Throw him down. Hit him some more. Don't stop hitting him as long as he's still a threat. It's simple. It's universal. It's reality down at the pointy end. It causes legal problems these days if you're not careful. It's still the essence of the thing. They know what a lot of gi-wearing, belt-tying, kun-quoting dojo-junkies never learned or have forgotten.

 

[loyalonehk]

I agree with the general idea, but am a little iffy about the specifics.

I'll give you that... I have been and still am. I actually took it almost verbatum from Pg 51 of Michael Echanis's "black" book "Knife Fighting/Knife Throwing for combat" had the book for a long time...

First, "followed for thousands of years in Asia" seems a little dubious, like almost all Ancient and Venerable Traditions of the Mystic Orient. History in the exact modern sense is difficult when you are researching people who mostly didn't write a whole lot and tended to live by their weapons and die violently and obscurely

There is a bit of mystery behind the man and the book series...

Second, the exact progression you lay out is pretty complicated. Now, let's see, he tried to punch me, so I can use punches or kicks against him but not throws or locks. I've got a mild concussion, but it didn't actually break the skin, so that means I can put the lock on but not actually break it except that I got dizzy and fell down and skinned my elbow, so now it's OK to finish the lock... Did you skin your elbow on the ground??? If so he didnt draw blood and no you cant finish the lock! RALOL

If it helps, the back ground however disputed or unclear is sugested that Mr Echanis had training in Hwa Rang Do... Take it with a pinch of salt... It's certainly never an exact science. I found it interesting and just threw it out there... :idunno: It's not a RULE that I teach or expect to be followed, just something to ponder. Bottom line in my classes, do what you must to survive the day... However, you beta be able to explain your actions, justify what you do and live with the consequences.

Deadly physical force, non-deadly physical force, "reasonable fear" and "immediate and otherwise unavoidable" are perhaps more applicable in this day and age. And they'll sound a lot better in the interrogation room or in front of the jury.

:uhyeah: Cant argue with that... The top part of my post was meant to be the focus of my reply. The later half was more of a quick cut and past to kick the bee hive... Id list the military EOF and ROE, but they both seem to change after every deployment...:whip:

If I ever end up in the interrogation room, I'll make sure to have a lawyer before I say anything.

Peace,
I'll check back later... Have a good one, It's Friday - Cheers

 

[tellner]

Amen to the lawyer part. Getting anywhere near the legal system without one is like diving into the shark tank with a pork chop tied around your neck.

One of the most frightening moments we had as self defense teachers came when one of our students asked "I have a friend. Should she just go to court without a lawyer and tell the truth? Will it all work out?" :uhohh:

It turned out someone had tried to rape her. She didn't cooperate. He tried to throw her down the stairwell. That didn't work either. He went to the police and claimed she'd attacked him. She was about to be arraigned but didn't want a lawyer because she'd have to tell her parents to get the money for one

After we nearly **** ourselves and picked our jaws up off the floor we cajoled, coerced and begged her to find the girl's parents and tell them and to get in touch with the university's services office and get her some kind of lawyer. I think we put the fear of G-d into the friend. Two days later the kid had a lawyer, her case never went to the Grand Jury, and the police were being gently guided in the right direction.

 

[kidswarrior]

Amen to the lawyer part. Getting anywhere near the legal system without one is like diving into the shark tank with a pork chop tied around your neck.

One of the most frightening moments we had as self defense teachers came when one of our students asked "I have a friend. Should she just go to court without a lawyer and tell the truth? Will it all work out?" :uhohh:

It turned out someone had tried to rape her. She didn't cooperate. He tried to throw her down the stairwell. That didn't work either. He went to the police and claimed she'd attacked him. She was about to be arraigned but didn't want a lawyer because she'd have to tell her parents to get the money for one

After we nearly **** ourselves and picked our jaws up off the floor we cajoled, coerced and begged her to find the girl's parents and tell them and to get in touch with the university's services office and get her some kind of lawyer. I think we put the fear of G-d into the friend. Two days later the kid had a lawyer, her case never went to the Grand Jury, and the police were being gently guided in the right direction.

Great story, tellner. Powerful anecdotal evidence for how blind the legal system really can be--and not blind in the good sense in which it was intended. We have to be savvy as well as good fighters in order to navigate our way through life as practitioners of the martial arts.