Question regarding MMA

[Sandwich]

You missed out karate, TKD and TSD.
Sambo is in itself a mixed martial art.

I don't think Karate, TKD, or TSD are very well represented (at least compared to styles like BJJ, Muay Thai, Wrestling, and Boxing), regardless of whether or not they deserve to be. Certainly there are some talented fighters who have trained these styles in the past, or still do (Machida, Liddell, Bas, Cung Le, etc).

I guess you could call Sambo a mixed martial art. It evolved from Judo and folk wrestling. Though of all the styles of sambo, only combat sambo incorporates striking. The thing is, mixed martial arts implies the mixing of multiple styles. And sambo is considered to be a single style. But you are right.

 

[Tez3]

I don't think Karate, TKD, or TSD are very well represented (at least compared to styles like BJJ, Muay Thai, Wrestling, and Boxing), regardless of whether or not they deserve to be. Certainly there are some talented fighters who have trained these styles in the past, or still do (Machida, Liddell, Bas, Cung Le, etc).

I guess you could call Sambo a mixed martial art. It evolved from Judo and folk wrestling. Though of all the styles of sambo, only combat sambo incorporates striking. The thing is, mixed martial arts implies the mixing of multiple styles. And sambo is considered to be a single style. But you are right.

Most of our fighters come from a karate or TKD background so yes I would say those styles are well represented in MMA though maybe not in the UFC. Many of ours are also from a kickboxing not MT background, they continue to compete in kickboxing as well as MMA. Few if any of our fighters study wrestling it's probably even more of a minority sport than MMA is here, instructors are few and far between. Most wrestling here is what you'd call 'folk' wrestling ie Cumbrian,Cornish, Scottish etc.
A friend of mine competed in a Sombo (thats what it's called here) competition in the cage in Russia, won his first lost his second bout.

 

[Sandwich]

Most of our fighters come from a karate or TKD background so yes I would say those styles are well represented in MMA though maybe not in the UFC. Many of ours are also from a kickboxing not MT background, they continue to compete in kickboxing as well as MMA. Few if any of our fighters study wrestling it's probably even more of a minority sport than MMA is here, instructors are few and far between. Most wrestling here is what you'd call 'folk' wrestling ie Cumbrian,Cornish, Scottish etc.
A friend of mine competed in a Sombo (thats what it's called here) competition in the cage in Russia, won his first lost his second bout.

I meant at high competition level. I see few fighters who train those types of styles in promotions like the UFC, Affliction, Dream, StrikeForce, etc. Not to say that I don't see them at all. They're better represented in some of the smaller promotions like Cage Rage, King Of The Cage, etc.

And wrestling is a fairly strong constant at the top level, many people going as far as to say that it is the best base for a mixed martial artist.

I don't want to give the impression that I am hostile with regards to some of these "TMA" (martial arts like Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling, Judo, are all TMA as well). On the contrary, I think that every martial art has its place. But my experience is that the martial arts that I listed in my first post are more popular in the major promotions, again, regardless of whether or not they should be.

 

[Tez3]

I meant at high competition level. I see few fighters who train those types of styles in promotions like the UFC, Affliction, Dream, StrikeForce, etc. Not to say that I don't see them at all. They're better represented in some of the smaller promotions like Cage Rage, King Of The Cage, etc.

And wrestling is a fairly strong constant at the top level, many people going as far as to say that it is the best base for a mixed martial artist.

I don't want to give the impression that I am hostile with regards to some of these "TMA" (martial arts like Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling, Judo, are all TMA as well). On the contrary, I think that every martial art has its place. But my experience is that the martial arts that I listed in my first post are more popular in the major promotions, again, regardless of whether or not they should be.

I guess Micheal Bisping, Ian Freeman, Dan Hardy and a lot more Brits I could name who have fought in the UFC aren't high enough profile for you then.
I'm telling you what our fighters do and you are telling me differently?

Karate and TKD as a core art is more common than you seem to think, even in your 'top level'. Bas Rutten's core art was TKD, he was 2nd Dan. I think you may want to have a closer look at some of the fighters.

 

[Tez3]

One of Ireland's top fighters...started with karate.
http://aisthebash.com/

 

[Steve]

A lot of guys start in karate, TKD or whatever, Tez, but I wonder how many of them STILL actively train in those styles? I don't see Bisping on TUF taking his guys through kata, standing in a horse stance and chambering their punches.

I know that in North America, it's rare. GSP didn't make the splash for Kyokushin because, by all accounts, he doesn't continue to train karate. He spars boxing and wrestling with the national Canadian teams, trains muay thai and BJJ. You'll still see the occasional spinning back kick, but for the most part the karate is fully integrated into an "MMA" style.

You seem to be taking this as a slight against UK MMA, but it's not... at least I don't think it's intended to be.

Edit to add, just regarding Bas Rutten, he was a 2nd degree BB in TKD and a 5th BB in Kyokushin Karate, and yet he was competing as a Thai Boxer by 20, with 15 professional fights. After that, he started competing in the pancrase tournaments, which was essentially Vale Tudo. While he definitely took from all of his MA experience, I'm guessing that his training during his professional career bore very little resemblance to his TKD and Kyokushin training as a youngster.

 

[Tez3]

A lot of guys start in karate, TKD or whatever, Tez, but I wonder how many of them STILL actively train in those styles? I don't see Bisping on TUF taking his guys through kata, standing in a horse stance and chambering their punches.

I know that in North America, it's rare. GSP didn't make the splash for Kyokushin because, by all accounts, he doesn't continue to train karate. He spars boxing and wrestling with the national Canadian teams, trains muay thai and BJJ. You'll still see the occasional spinning back kick, but for the most part the karate is fully integrated into an "MMA" style.

You seem to be taking this as a slight against UK MMA, but it's not... at least I don't think it's intended to be.

Edit to add, just regarding Bas Rutten, he was a 2nd degree BB in TKD and a 5th BB in Kyokushin Karate, and yet he was competing as a Thai Boxer by 20, with 15 professional fights. After that, he started competing in the pancrase tournaments, which was essentially Vale Tudo. While he definitely took from all of his MA experience, I'm guessing that his training during his professional career bore very little resemblance to his TKD and Kyokushin training as a youngster.

Well it was slanted somewhat against the British fighters because I specifically said, so as not to confuse the issue, that our fighters do this or that and Sandwich came back with 'he meant high competition level fighters' as if we didn't have any! I was trying to show the difference between the way MMA is 'played' here and in America only to be told, after I said we don't do the wrestling thing much, again that it's only at high level it's found, again making it seem as if we are second class.

TBH you shouldn't be able to differentiate stand up styles too much in MMA, because, guess what it's mixed martial arts, we mix it up to make it work!

 

[dancingalone]

TBH you shouldn't be able to differentiate stand up styles too much in MMA, because, guess what it's mixed martial arts, we mix it up to make it work!

Hence why Machida seems to be growing in popularity among traditional martial artists. His fighting style in the UFC octagon has noticeable karate elements within it.

 

[Tez3]

Hence why Machida seems to be growing in popularity among traditional martial artists. His fighting style in the UFC octagon has noticeable karate elements within it.

To karateka lol the non martial arts fans won't notice the difference.

 

[dancingalone]

Granted, but that's the case with anything. More knowledge inevitably leans to a more discerning eye.

 

[Tez3]

Granted, but that's the case with anything. More knowledge inevitably leans to a more discerning eye.

I wonder if we all tend to pick out our core art when watching MMA?

 

[Andrew Green]

There really is two pieces to training, what you train, and what you train against.

Machida trains to use what he does against trained full contact fighters, not just guys "pretending" to be full contact fighters for a one-step, but in a ring against guys that are full-contact fighters and are really trying to use those skills on him.

This is what separates him from 90% of the traditional karate schools out there, they train to fight other karate fighters, under karate rules.

There aren't a lot of people that can do what Machida does, because it requires heavy cross-training. You can't often learn how to fight a kickboxer or a wrestler in a Karate Dojo because there are no kickboxers or wrestlers there using kickboxing or wrestling in sparring there.

It's certainley not the first time someone with a unique background has popped up in MMA and taken everyone by surprise, I suspect that with time elements of what he does will be picked up by others, and other fighters will learn to deal with that sort of fighter as has happened in the past.

But I think the real lesson is that training methods matter, and matter a lot. Probably much more so then what "style"

 

[dancingalone]

I wonder if we all tend to pick out our core art when watching MMA?

I think it's only human to look for similarities when encountering new things. Machida's success is validation for karate-ka who want their art to have a better reputation among the MMA rank-and-file. You only have to read forums like sherdog to know karate is unrespected by many MMA fans.

 

[punisher73]

What evactly is MMA, is it just a mixture or blends of different styles? If so then someone doing Karate and TKD along with Kempo would be consider a MMA person, or I am missing something here. Thanks for any and all replys ahead of time.

I would just call that "cross training". While yes, technically you do have a "mixed martial art", that term is used to apply to a specific sport and context to designate the approach used by athletes in competitions. The term MMA is used to represent the style that the athlete uses. It is based on punching, kicking, clinch, takedown, grappling. In the US, most people think of MMA as a blend of Muay Thai, BJJ, Boxing and Wrestling. Although as Tez pointed out there are other styles represented as well.

The other argument I always hear is that MMA=JKD & JKD=MMA. That somehow if you mix your arts and crosstrain, you are now doing Jeet Kune Do. This is insulting to other arts that do have other elements added before either of those were popular (Kajukenbo comes to mind). MMA is a skill set (sport) based on a specific set of rules, and depending on where you compete the skills seen will reflect that rule set. For example, in the US the two competitions that most are familiar with are the UFC and PrideFC (no longer exists). The UFC uses an octangonal cage, and Pride used a boxing ring. The strategies and techniques you saw in each of those reflected those venues. For example, in the UFC alot of strategy is spent on putting your opponent into the cage and holding them their to limit mobility. In Pride if you got caught in the ropes, the action was stopped and moved to the center of the ring, so you didn't see strategy revolving around that. Also, kicks/elbows/etc. were different in each competition so fighter's used them a little bit differently. In the UFC it is very common to see fighter's using elbows on the ground trying to cut the opponent and get a win via ref stoppage. In Pride elbows to the head and face were illegal.

The reason for the REALLY long answer is find out what the potential student wants when they ask for MMA. Do they just mean a mix of different arts to give them a more well rounded curriculum (crosstraining), or do they mean the sport of MMA?

In my opinion crosstraining does not make you an MMA fighter.

 

[Steve]

I think it's only human to look for similarities when encountering new things. Machida's success is validation for karate-ka who want their art to have a better reputation among the MMA rank-and-file. You only have to read forums like sherdog to know karate is unrespected by many MMA fans.

I've never read sherdog regularly, but on another well known site that I don't think is well liked here, styles like Kyokushin aren't disrespected, and while they are biased against certain styles as being rife with bullshido (such as WC, Ninjutsu and TKD), there are TMA guys who train hard in those styles and get along fine there.

Point is, I think it's easy to talk about the MMA rank and file, but that's a potentially misleading as sweeping generalizations about a particular style.

 

[Steve]

Well it was slanted somewhat against the British fighters because I specifically said, so as not to confuse the issue, that our fighters do this or that and Sandwich came back with 'he meant high competition level fighters' as if we didn't have any! I was trying to show the difference between the way MMA is 'played' here and in America only to be told, after I said we don't do the wrestling thing much, again that it's only at high level it's found, again making it seem as if we are second class.

TBH you shouldn't be able to differentiate stand up styles too much in MMA, because, guess what it's mixed martial arts, we mix it up to make it work!

Bisping's not high level... is he?

Just kidding!

 

[Steve]

But I think the real lesson is that training methods matter, and matter a lot. Probably much more so then what "style"

EXACTLY!!! I have said this so many times I've stopped bothering.

Regarding whether people other than karateka can discern the karate in Machida's style, I'd say more than you think. There is a solid base of knowledgeable fans who know what MMA fighters typically do in the ring within a fairly broad range. Wrestlers, strikers, luchadors or whatever. Machida's approach is distinct.

 

[Sandwich]

Well it was slanted somewhat against the British fighters because I specifically said, so as not to confuse the issue, that our fighters do this or that and Sandwich came back with 'he meant high competition level fighters' as if we didn't have any! I was trying to show the difference between the way MMA is 'played' here and in America only to be told, after I said we don't do the wrestling thing much, again that it's only at high level it's found, again making it seem as if we are second class.

TBH you shouldn't be able to differentiate stand up styles too much in MMA, because, guess what it's mixed martial arts, we mix it up to make it work!

I wasn't trying to imply that "TMA" don't exist at a high level in MMA, or even that they are ineffective. In fact, if you look at my old posts, you'll notice that I specifically said that there were talented mixed martial artists who train these styles at a high level.

However, I stand by what I said. Even if you and I can name talented mixed martial artists who train "TMA", they're still outnumbered by mixed martial artists who train some of the styles that I mentioned previously.

 

[Tez3]

I wasn't trying to imply that "TMA" don't exist at a high level in MMA, or even that they are ineffective. In fact, if you look at my old posts, you'll notice that I specifically said that there were talented mixed martial artists who train these styles at a high level.

However, I stand by what I said. Even if you and I can name talented mixed martial artists who train "TMA", they're still outnumbered by mixed martial artists who train some of the styles that I mentioned previously.

But all the styles MMA fighters train are TMAs, none of the styles are new to us! BJJ has been around a very long time as has MT. Even MMA is old dating back to early Greek times. There's nothing new under the sun.

 

[Sandwich]

But all the styles MMA fighters train are TMAs, none of the styles are new to us! BJJ has been around a very long time as has MT. Even MMA is old dating back to early Greek times. There's nothing new under the sun.

Yeah, that's why I put TMA in quotes in my last post. A lot of people seem to use it to describe east asian martial arts. When in reality, most martial arts in use today have very interesting histories. Of course there are a couple that haven't been around for quite as long. Sambo, Krav Maga, TKD etc which have "only" been around for 60-70 years-ish.