Question on kicks

[Spookey]

Celtic Boy,

The reality (not personal perception) reflects two points...

REGARDING LIABILITY
1. Once you contact a combatant you have created a liability, period


REGARDING KICKING ("Bouncing off")
2. If you cannot kick a person and create some affect (falling, leaning, unbalancing, redirecting, discomfort, pain, unconsciousness, ect) you must be doing something wrong. Even a poor kick should have some effect, maybe not the desired , but an effect none the less. If you are not capable of producing at least one of the listed effects then you need alot of work on the application of kicks

TAEKWON!
Spookey

 

[Zepp]

In reality you couldn't and probably wouldn't be able to kick with the footsword or ball of the foot with a boot or shoe on and neither should you try.

In reality, a boot or shoe protects your foot and allows you to safely kick with your toes. This has makes a penetrating impact similar to hitting with the ball of the foot. I know from experience.

Footswords etc are nice against stationary boards but in a real situation against a moving target you would likely get your ankle broken.

Gee, that must explain why all those kickboxers who kick moving opponents with their feet have broken ankles.

I have practised tkd and I have the commonsense to know that all this theory of power only really works with boards etc.

...because no practitioner of TKD has ever successfully kicked a person.

Against an opponent who is high on drugs and adrenaline you will likely just bounce off them.

...if you're fighting rubber opponents.

 

[Adept]

What I don't understand is how basic techniques would not work the same way. I mean, a sidekick with the heel/blade edge, if that force can break a board, if that force with the body weight behind it can block and push back and wind a sparring opponent, why can it not break a kneecap and push back a 'high' aggessor?

It can. Celtic bhoy is wrong. It's basic physics. If you apply enough force, something will give. I dont care how high, stoned or drunk someone is, a solid well placed kick will knick them over. A well aimed kick to the knee will still shatter it. A well placed punch will still crack the sternum. And if you cant walk or breath, you cant fight. It really is that simple.

Currently, I can get more force into a target with a instep roundhouse than I can with a shin from a roundhouse, so for me, a shin to the gut is not as damaging as a instep to the gut (even if the shin would be a harder surface) so why in a 'real' situation should I favor a less powerful attack, especially one that brings me much closer to an opponent.

Everyone has a favourite range. Some people like to fight at arms length, some people like to get real close and personal. If given the option, and you prefer to kick with the instep, then go for it. I prefer the shin myself. The differences in force are negligable.

I too have worked in the security industry and I can assure you that when an adversary is fired up, most kick and punches do tend to bounce off the opponent.

I understand that often a person in an altered state of consciousness will ignore pain, at least temporarily, but their state of mind does not affect how their body moves mechanically. Without a knee, they cannot walk no matter how whacked out on PCP they are. I agree, taking uncecessary risks is stupid. I would never try to kick to the head in a self defense situation.

 

[Marginal]

Currently, I can get more force into a target with a instep roundhouse than I can with a shin from a roundhouse, so for me, a shin to the gut is not as damaging as a instep to the gut (even if the shin would be a harder surface) so why in a 'real' situation should I favor a less powerful attack, especially one that brings me much closer to an opponent.

It seems to me that an attacker wouldn't routinely approach you in a side facing position. A far more likely target for a roundhouse kick with the shin would be the ribs, the outside upper thigh (there's a nerve bundle there that can give a pretty hard to ignore dead leg) etc.

 

[celtic bhoy]

Celtic bhoy is wrong. It's basic physics. If you apply enough force, something will give. I dont care how high, stoned or drunk someone is, a solid well placed kick will knick them over. A well aimed kick to the knee will still shatter it. A well placed punch will still crack the sternum. And if you cant walk or breath, you cant fight. It really is that simple.

So that's where I've been going wrong all these years!! If ***** hits the fan just take out the knee or sternum and if it don't work then they must be made of rubber!!........please!!

Do you have a 100% strike rate in cracking knee's and sternums then? As I'm pretty sure you don't, I shall say this.

It's statements like the quote above that gives students of martial arts false confidence.

Martial Arts don't make you superhuman, when you strip all the bushido, chi, ki (call it what you want) away, it's still man against man. It's still fear, rage aggression and mortal danger. Martial arts only give you options to choose what works for you. Styles are only different theories of what you can use in situation, none are the complete article.

Taking out the knee is not easy against a moving target and even if you hit it you may only succeed in disturbing the opponents balance. Their momentum may still mean that that they will close the distance and pull you down.

Kicks to the knee and punches to the sternum may work against the average joe. But would these techniques work against someone who plays football of lifts weights for a hobby or is 240lbs of solid muscle and legs like tree trunks and likes the use of steriods?

Trust me, in that scenario you will be very unlikely to take out the knee or do a great deal of damage to any sternum, if your accurate enough to hit these targets. Your techniques will likely bounce off them!! The human body is highly resilient to impact, especially when conditioned.

I have seen many different stylists get into real situations and rarely have they kicked. The ones that have usually end ed up on the floor through various momentums.

By that, I mean either missing the target, the kick bouncing off the target or the opponent anticipating the kick and taking them down.

To dictate what techniques will make the job simple is presumptious of your own abilities prevailing and ignorant of what your opponent may be capable of, it's breeds false confidence that would put you at risk. Fights ebb and flow, you can't predict what tool will finish the job.

You may reduce your own options by being at close range if you feel kicking is your game. If you're not confident at that range, then train more at that range. If you feel your kicks are less powerful at that range then train them to be harder at that range.Your opponent is less likely to see what you are going to throw at them and with practice you can generate immense power from short range. It is easier to manipulate a vital spot into position ready for striking at short range.

When it comes to kicking in general, what I was trying to say was that for me strict fashion kicking with footswords etc are pointless with boots on. You might as well take advantage of the boots hardness.

I won't say what techniques are crap because a fight only lasts for seconds so you don't get to use them all. Everyone has to be their own salvation find what works for them.

But for me fancy kicks are kept for the dojang and for my examiners grading cards. But for real life I forget most of it and use what I feel comfortable with, which is close range shin and knee strikes to kyusho points.

It doesn't matter what the connecting tool is, just do what's comfortable and build the power from there. But keep logic in mind, one blow will rarely finish the job.

 

[SammyB57]

Celtic Bhoy am correct.

 

[Adept]

Martial Arts don't make you superhuman, when you strip all the bushido, chi, ki (call it what you want) away, it's still man against man. It's still fear, rage aggression and mortal danger. Martial arts only give you options to choose what works for you. Styles are only different theories of what you can use in situation, none are the complete article.

I agree with that 100%

Taking out the knee is not easy against a moving target and even if you hit it you may only succeed in disturbing the opponents balance. Their momentum may still mean that that they will close the distance and pull you down.

No, it isnt. But once you have control of an opponent, a strong kick to the side of the knee is much easier.

Kicks to the knee and punches to the sternum may work against the average joe. But would these techniques work against someone who plays football of lifts weights for a hobby or is 240lbs of solid muscle and legs like tree trunks and likes the use of steriods?

Take a look at the centre of your sternum. You'll notice there is no muscle mass there. The sternum is always a good place to strike, because even the most muscle bound freak will be unable to build muscle there. Only an outrageously obese person will have any kind of padding there.

Your techniques will likely bounce off them!! The human body is highly resilient to impact, especially when conditioned.

And here we go again. Take a look at some of the permier fighting competitions. Pride, the UFC, K1 and the rest. A solid hit against an opponent will alter their momentum, damage and daze them, or knock them completely out. I dont care how conditioned someone is, if Tank Abbot lands a solid blow they are going to be hurting badly.

I have seen many different stylists get into real situations and rarely have they kicked. The ones that have usually end ed up on the floor through various momentums.

I wont disagree with that. I think kicking above the waist in most SD situations is an unacceptable risk. Kicks below the waist or to the waist, however, are a different story.

To dictate what techniques will make the job simple is presumptious of your own abilities prevailing and ignorant of what your opponent may be capable of, it's breeds false confidence that would put you at risk. Fights ebb and flow, you can't predict what tool will finish the job.

Way to miss the point. I was not trying to give an exhaustive list of what techniques can be used to win a fight. I was pointing out that no matter a persons state of consciousness, a broken knee cannot be walked on, a cracked sternum means you cannot breathe, etc. Damage can be done to a body through strikes no matter how conditioned the body, or what the persons state of consciousness is.

It is easier to manipulate a vital spot into position ready for striking at short range.

Ditto that.

When it comes to kicking in general, what I was trying to say was that for me strict fashion kicking with footswords etc are pointless with boots on. You might as well take advantage of the boots hardness.

I'll even agree with that.

But for me fancy kicks are kept for the dojang and for my examiners grading cards. But for real life I forget most of it and use what I feel comfortable with, which is close range shin and knee strikes to kyusho points.

Mostly the same here.

It doesn't matter what the connecting tool is, just do what's comfortable and build the power from there. But keep logic in mind, one blow will rarely finish the job.

Unless its the right blow. I've found a lot of fights to be one punch fights.

 

[Flamebearer]

I was taught to use the heel. It is the "end of the line" made by your femur and shinbones and therefore your power runs straight down it for max effect. The ball of the foot is not in line (unless you really point your foot) and the risk of breaking toes is greater.

The goal of a kick is to break your opponent, not yourself.
-Flamebearer

 

[ArtlessArt]

From what I understand either the instep or ball are going to be pretty powerful as long as you use the proper technique. That being said the ball of the foot is a lot more powerful because like someone said earlier it concentrates your force into a smaller surface area, rendering more pounding power. I find both useful for sparring and board breaks (but the ball of the foot is way better for breaking imo).

 

[MJS]

As with all things, everything has its time and place. Depending on the situation, kicking with the instep, shin, ball of foot all have their place. One thing that always interests me, is when talking about fighting, the topic of will this work, will that work, this won't work on this person, that will, etc. We need to keep in mind a few things here.

1- Not every street fight is going to be mult. attackers.

2- Not every street fight is going to be against someone bigger than you.

3- Not every fight is going to be against someone with a weapon.

4- Not every fight is going to be against someone under the influence of something, be it alcohol, drugs, etc.

Reading over some of the past posts, I noticed people saying exactly what I said above...this tech won't work, etc. So...why do we bother to train?? Granted, the MA do not turn people into Supermen, but they should give us the edge. Yes, when the stress is high, adrenalin flowing, etc. it does play a part, but we also need to remember while the arts don't turn us into supermen, lifting weights or taking steroids does not make one a superman either. Is our training going to go out the window because the guy is 6'5, 250 lbs. and built like a brick house? Personally, I don't care how much conditioning the guy has done, the fact remains that he can't exercise his eyes and groin. That being said, hitting the eyes will get an effect.

I almost get the impression that the one shot one kill is being hinted at here. Now, IMO, I'm not a fan of that because the odds of that actually happening are slim. Can it happen? Yes! Something that you should bank on? NO!!! All techs., especially if you're training for SD, should be trained with resistance and aliveness. Nobody is going to stand still for you, so yes, we should be training our punches and kicks against someone moving. Just because that one kick that we throw does not drop the person, does not mean that it didn't set the attacker up for other strikes. Someone mentioned MMA events...some excellent examples of highly conditioned people, who are taking and giving shots, getting rocked and also doing some rocking.

The majority comes down to what we want out of our training. Are we training for sport, SD, etc.? How we train will determine what we do under stressfull situations.

Mike

 

[FearlessFreep]

One thing my sabomnim mentioned tonight when I talked about this with him was "why do we strike with the knee and not the thigh? Why the elbow and the palm and the first and not the forearm?" The joints have extra material and are designed to take force along the same directions we happen to strike; the shin is a hard, blunt object but is not designed to take force from the direction which it gets when it's used to strike

 

[MichiganTKD]

Tae Kwon Do uses the instep and, to a lesser degree, the ball of the foot to execute the roundhouse over the shin for several reasons.

1. Distance. A Tae Kwon Do student prefers keeping his opponent at a greater distance. To contact with the shin, you must be closer out of necessity. You can contact them, but they can also contact you easier because you are closer.
2. Force concentration. As stated before, the shin is a bigger surface to disseminate power than either the instep or the ball of the foot. Therefore, as a matter of physics, contact power is reduced because the force of the kick is spread out over a larger area.
3. Points. In WTF style free fighting, the instep is used to reduce the likelihood of accidents. We are not trying to pummel the opponent or break his ribs. The instep is used to safely deliver a point while preventing accidents.
4. Exact target. While the shin is used to deliver a brute force attack, similar to a baseball bat, Tae Kwon Do practices controlled strikes to precisely selected targets:
instep-stomach, ribs, jaw, temple
ball of the foot-same targets, but the purpose is to produce more power. Each technique has a tradeoff. Instep kick is faster but less powerfull; ball of the foot is stronger but slower

 

[jfarnsworth]

Good post. :asian: