Chen Style Basics Series -- Zuǒyòu chājiǎo (left and right rub with heel)

[windwalker099]

I ask you a question. Instead of answering my question, you come back with 2 more questions.


Here is my question. How do you explain to a Karate/TKD guy that Taiji front kick is different from a Karate/TKD front kick?

Touché
In working with people from other styles or backgrounds there is no explanation needed .

They can’t do the kick physically

They don’t understand what inner momentum is or what it means.

They can not meet the requiments of the movement using their old body mechanics..
Most understanding this attempting to do it thinking its the same...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Might wanna ask yourself why one is slowed
down and the other is at normal speed ?

I slowdown that video because that's the best front kick that I have ever seen. If you watch carefully, his front kick is a downward curve. You need to have great flexibility in order to do that. Your knee has to be able to touch your chest before you kick out. I know I can't lift my knee that high before kicking out. In normal speed, you may not be able to see that.

 

[windwalker099]

No! I don't feel any difference. I like MT roundhouse kick better than the TKD roundhouse kick because the MT roundhouse kick meet the requirement of "body push/pull limbs".

A video showing some difference's...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

They don’t understand what inner momentum is or what it means.

"Inner momentum" come with all kicks. IMO, there is only a gook kick and a bad kick. There exist no "inner momentum" kick and "non-inner momentum" kick.

 

[marvin8]

You still have not mentioned what the difference is.

Here is my question. How do you explain to a Karate/TKD guy that Taiji front kick is different from a Karate/TKD front kick?

At 3:10, Karate front kick...

"I Took The SLOWEST Yet The STRONGEST Kick! Kikuno Sensei"

Karate Dojo waKu
Sep 24, 2024

Episode 1: • He Made OKINAWAN KARATE Work In PRO MMA
Episode 2: • I Took The SLOWEST Yet The STRONGEST ...
Episode 3: • The Most Rare and Unorthodox Throws B...
Episode 4: • I Met A Pro MMA Fighter Who Uses Okin...

https://imgur.com/QYLErXr

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This kind of practice can help you improve your Tai Chi Kicks!

If you say, "This kind of practice can help you improve your kicks!", I can understand that. When you say, "This kind of practice can help you improve your Tai Chi Kicks!", I want to ask, "Why do you care?"

It makes no sense to put MA style (such as Taiji) above combat tool (such as front kick). Your combat tool can come from different sources. It's not a good idea to use MA style to set restriction on yourself.

Can you find all the combat tools from Taiji system? I don't think you can.

1. Punch - jab, cross, hook, uppercut, overhand, back fist, hammer fist, side punch, spiral punch, hay-maker, ...
2. Kick - front toe kick, front heel kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, back kick, inside crescent kick, outside crescent kick, tornado kick, jumping double front kick, jumping crescent kick, ...
3. Knee - upward knee, horizontal knee, 45 degree knee, flying knee, ...
4. Elbow - horizontal elbow, upward elbow, downward elbow, forward elbow, backward elbow, ...
5. Lock - finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, spine lock, knee lock, ankle lock, ...
6. Throw - single leg, double legs, hip throw, leg twist, leg spring, leg lift, leg block, foot sweep, ...
7. Footwork - forward step, backward step, side step, wheeling step, circle walking, circle running, long distance advance, long distance retreat, ...
8. Ground game - full mount, side mount, arm bar, leg bar, choke, ...
9. Short weapon - dagger, double edges sword, single edge knife, Miao Diao, ...
10. Long weapon - staff, pole, spear, Guan Dao, ...
11. Throwing weapon - bow and arrow, throwing dart, throwing knife, throwing rock, ...

 

[Appledog]

If you say, "This kind of practice can help you improve your kicks!", I can understand that. When you say, "This kind of practice can help you improve your Tai Chi Kicks!", I want to ask, "Why do you care?"

I care because I do Tai Chi. People do Tai Chi kicks in a different way than Longfist or Karate kicks, therefore practicing a Tai Chi kick will help your Tai Chi kicks and not your Longfist or Karate kicks.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I wish you had a video of this kick. Wondering if it's the same one I picked up somewhere along the line. Not exactly a front kick, comes upward at an angle. Great for hitting the ribs with the tip of the foot. Almost like a front kick that wants to be a roundhouse lol. Can't remember what it's called

I have video of me doing the technique. One is a front kick and the other is a side kick but the camera angle was too close and the positioning of the knee is not visible. Based on your description " Great for hitting the ribs with the tip of the foot. Almost like a front kick that wants to be a roundhouse ." is the same type of kick. I don't hit with the tip of my toes though. My toes gets in there, but it's like the ball of my footland first and then the toes land. Hard to explain but you are thinking of the same kick.

This is me (below) this is front kick version the kick doesn't go foward it goes vertically or horiztonal. But the kick is like a pick axe with it landing on the toe. Just spike it right into the ribs or the soft parts of the body. I think Tony spiked me in the chest even at light sparring it's not a comfortable kick to take. I guess it's because it target all of those places where you really can't just take the kick. It's not like a blunt force kick this one stabs.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I care because I do Tai Chi. People do Tai Chi kicks in a different way than Longfist or Karate kicks, therefore practicing a Tai Chi kick will help your Tai Chi kicks and not your Longfist or Karate kicks.

Is Taiji the only MA system that you train?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Funny story. Running hurdles helped me develop my front kick. Specifically, this exercise without doing the push up is why front kicks are natural for me. 6 years of this type of exercise. Lead Leg Snap down. The way I would do mine was to high step a couple of steps and then do the Lead Leg Snap down.

It doesn't seem like it will help but it trains the leg in this way.
1. Strengthens the muscles that life the knee
2. Strengthens and conditions the muscle that whips the lower leg out
3. Teaches how to quickly get the leg up, out, and down.
4. Teaches how to send the energy of the kick out through the toes. When running hurdles the toe points up in the same way a front kick points up. But it points up where the ball of the foot leads because that's the part that you have to land on when the leg comes down. Below is what I'm referring to about the ball of the foot landing first. I the wall drill on a fence. You can do it on a tree but it's important to feel that impact on the ball of the foot. For martial arts I would do it like the hurdle drill focus on speed instead of power. I wouldn't train power until I got the speed and foot positioning correct. The last thing you want to do is kick as hard as you can and accident kick a heavy bag or hard surface with the tip of the toes.

People do Tai Chi kicks in a different way than Longfist or Karate kicks, therefore practicing a Tai Chi kick will help your Tai Chi kicks and not your Longfist or Karate kicks.

The are different but not really. Functional kicks are basically the same regardless of the martial arts system. Artistic kicks however are very different. If you are training a kick to use in a fight, then that kick will have certain requirements that are needed for an effective kick. Artistic kicks have no such requirements and as a result you'll end up with kicks that are greatly different.

This is artistic kicking

This is functional kicking for the purpose of striking a person with effective force. If you look at my standing leg. My toe is not pointing at my opponent.

Here's another example. This is a front kick and not a side kick. My foot of my standing leg is not pointing at my opponent, but my knee is and my toe is.

This is what it looks like with the foot extended. The Tai chi kick exercise that you were doing is found in long fist systems. I train Jow Ga Kung Fu and this kick comes from it's long fist roots. Karate uses a similar kick.

Same kick used in MMA. The toes of his standing leg are not pointed at his opponent.

The kick again in Uechi Ryu Karate. The foot of his standing leg is not pointing at his opponent.

The type of kick exercise you are doing in your video is a real kick found in a lot of martial arts systems. This is a stabbing kick that targets certain parts of the body. It's not as strong as the common front kick that people do, but it doesn't have to be that powerful because it stabs the body.

 

[windwalker099]

People do Tai Chi kicks in a different way than Longfist or Karate kicks, therefore practicing a Tai Chi kick will help your Tai Chi kicks and not your Longfist or Karate kicks.

Might help to clarify what you feel is different, separating the differences between training and application that some seem to be mixing up.

 

[windwalker099]

I slowdown that video because that's the best front kick that I have ever seen. If you watch carefully, his front kick is a downward curve. You need to have great flexibility in order to do that. Your knee has to be able to touch your chest before you kick out. I know I can't lift my knee that high before kicking out. In normal speed, you may not be able to see that.

Because the momentum of the kick depends on speed and timing,
The range of the kick depends on flexibility.

"Inner momentum" come with all kicks. IMO, there is only a gook kick and a bad kick. There exist no "inner momentum" kick and "non-inner momentum" kick.

It might be more correct to say that different methods / styles focus on developing "momentum" based on different theories applied to movement..

per chat GP...

Inner momentum draws power from the core and internal body mechanics.
Outer momentum draws power from the limbs and large muscle groups.

This kick extends from the center/core does not depend on speed or range of movement
for momentum ...Does depend on "song" relaxation.

The OP demo of beginners practice
As they are beginners, its unclear why one would use them in making the case
the movements demoed would help improve anything...

 

[JowGaWolf]

As they are beginners, its unclear why one would use them in making the case
the movements demoed would help improve anything...

This is how I see it as well. It checks all of my boxes for developing "leg lifting strength"
1. Standing on one leg - strengthens stabilizing muscles
2. Training Balance - moving into cross and out of cross and kicking
3. Training leg strength. - lifting the leg.

The movement reminds me of a long fist technique that Jow Ga has. The only real difference is the hand work. The same movement that they use to cross their hands is similar to the movement Jow Ga uses to power a hammer fist. The lean in the video is mostley due to me practicing on a slope + lack of range of motion for turning my waist (aka weak core). Here I have one arm extended in one arm chambered. This same movement can also be used to break an arm. I grab my opponent's outstretch arm with my right hand and twist into this stance and dropping on my opponent's extend arm with my left arm.

Here both arms are "chambered" or in "grabbing position" I'm not sure what the application would be for their system. In Jow Ga crossing the arms like that do is like "trapping" or "grabbing" but using the arms to perform that action instead of the hands. I tried the Jow Ga tech but used my arms as if I'm trapping a punch and the mechanics for kicking after the trap looks like the exercise they are doing.

The person in the red pants has good sinking. In long fist major part of the power comes from the sinking.

As you state there would be a lot of benefit for doing this type of exercise as it tends to work a lot of things. Like most things in martial arts if one wants to get the full benefits, then it would be necessary to train the movement as close to application movement as possible. The one thing that's common in Martial Arts is the movement of energy. It moves from the bottom and exits the limbs or other parts of the body. Application is the quickest way to learn correct visualization of how the energy is supposed to flow.


With all of this said. I do have a question about what you are doing. Why do you start the technique with an arm grab and then not to the arm grab in the next series, which turns into just folding arms? I understand that you are just trying to work on the kicks but I'm just curious why the arm grab isn't there since it would allow you to train more than just the muscles used for the kick.

 

[windwalker099]

This teacher has some exercise for improving. "taiji kicking"

The ability to bring ones knee into their chest was mentioned.

Your knee has to be able to touch your chest before you kick out. I know I can't lift my knee that high before kicking out. In normal speed, you may not be able to see that.

While some may be able to do this,,can they do. it still keeping the alignments.
demos the kick commenting on "alignment's"

 

[Same Trick]

Honest question from someone who has never practiced tai chi or any CMA. The kicks in the video- where does the power come from? I can see the pushing up off the non kicking leg adding power. These kicks are different from karate, I'd like to understand more.

The longfist kicks are more for gymnastics than for direct martial purpose.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The longfist kicks are more for gymnastics than for direct martial purpose.

Maybe you want to say, "The modern Wushu kicks are more for gymnastics than for direct martial purpose."

 

[Same Trick]

IME, the method is different, just as the method of kicking in CMA is different from Karate.

While Taiji movement shares many similarities with its origin CMA styles, as expected, the mechanics are not the same,
being based on different theories for power delivery.

If one feels there is no "difference," and it's an important point, they might want to examine how they perform the movements.

If not, a kick is a kick, a punch is a punch.




There are differences between CMA kicking, Karate, and the derivative styles of Karate in general.
One of the posters here might be able to explain it more in depth.

"Same Trick "​

When look at modern sanda, even in solo practice kicking there’s more “hip” and “push” in it,
And actually looking at traditional Karate kata, for example front kick their more in tune with traditional long fist kicking, also the inward kick palm of hand is in traditional karate kata.
With introduction of combat sports kicking evolved

 

[Same Trick]

Maybe you want to say, "The modern Wushu kicks are more for gymnastics than for direct martial purpose."

You are probably right, I have no experience in old style longfist ….
-
Hey I may be wrong there, I do train TJQ

 

[Same Trick]

You still have not mentioned what the difference is.

Here is my question. How do you explain to a Karate/TKD guy that Taiji front kick is different from a Karate/TKD front kick?

When I go through my TJQ(Yang/wu) I get spirited and although the kicks slow I put in some hip push, a remnant from my karate days when I just loved to plant a solid kick on my opponents

 

[windwalker099]

I get spirited and although the kicks slow I put in some hip push, a remnant from my karate days when I just loved to plant a solid kick on my opponents

Something that takes a while to train out...
If the whole body is connected, the need to emphasize any one point for solidity or power is eliminated.
Any one point can express the whole .

The slide talks about 6 harmonies, the terminology incorrect, as it actually only refers to the 3 outer harmonies..
Not the .three Inner Harmonies" (内三合, Nèi Sān Hé)

Taiji uses sinking (沉, Chén) combined with spiral movement to express translation and rotation.
The 下丹田 (xià dāntián), "lower dāntián " commonly referred to as dāntián, the nexus that connects the upper and lower parts of the body.

Each of the three outer harmonies (三外合, sān wài hé) needs to be coordinated and aligned for one to develop and use this type of force effectively.

Inner and outer momentum was mentioned...

Chat GP

Source of Power:
Inner momentum draws power from the core and internal body mechanics.
Outer momentum draws power from the limbs and large muscle groups.

Taiji develops an awareness of what inner momentum, means, how to express it through movement.

Kicks can be executed in various ways, depending on the style and method used to deliver them.
Taiji movements are practiced slowly because they do not rely on outer momentum as a source of power.

In Taiji, what is referred to as "kicking" is not isolated or different from any other type of movement practiced. All movements follow the same theory, based on the specific line of Taiji being practiced.