Turning Kick in Taegeuk 6

[RTKDCMB]

The ITF has a somewhat similar kick which hits with the ball of the foot while the leg is "on its side" (as opposed to its orientation in a front snap kick). A side thrusting kick is executed like a side piercing kick but instead of the footsword the ball of the foot is used and the preparation position for the kick has the leg lifted so it is horizontal to the floor. The leg is then thrust forward towards the target, hitting with no rotation (unlike a side piercing kick).

Can you point to a video of that kick, it does not seem like a very good way to do a side kick to me?

 

[andyjeffries]

Wait a minute. Didn't we have another conversation in which I was insisting that changes had been introduced over the years and you were adamant that the standard has been the same since 1972 and there had been no changes, just that only recently the KKW has become stricter about encouraging conformity?

Possibly, but I can't find the thread to determine why the apparent conflict in my thinking. I think the two thoughts aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, depending on the exact phrasing/what's being talked about...

 

[msmitht]

The proper way is with the toes pointed. I have been to 3 different kkw master instructor courses in the past 7 years. 2 were in the USA, one was in Korea. In all three we practiced with the instep and toes pointed for taeguek 6. The teachers were all 8th and 9th Dan and 2 are poomsae world champions. I'm pretty sure they were teaching current standards.

 

[BoA36]

Please look at the video

At about 5:38 into it you will see the roundhouse done with the ball of the foot and at 6:00 with the instep. The beginning of the video states it was made under supervision of Gen. Choi. Clearly this goes back a long way, likely the late 60's. Kicking instrument depends on point of attack. A great "old school" video.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

We require a roundhouse break of at least one 1" board. But we also require that it be done properly, with the ball of the foot.

Is the foot bent at 90 degrees (or pi/2 radians for the metric people)? Have you seen anyone injure toes while doing the board breaking?

 

[Dirty Dog]

The exact angle of the ankle (you really can't bend your foot...) depends on the exact placement of the board. The ankle is at an angle that results in the impact being on the ball if the foot with the tarsals in line with the impact.
By the time they're breaking with the kick, students have learned to keep the toes out of it. Sprains have occurred, but earlier, when they're kicking targets or pads.


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[msmitht]

An excellent video. Seen it many times. Not the best for referencing how to perform the kick according to kikkiwon standards, but an excellent old school video.

 

[msmitht]

In all honesty, it doesn't matter. For true self defense you will most likely be wearing shoes which, depending on the shoe, can make it difficult to flex or point your toes. The tounge of the shoe should protect your foot from injury. If you are wearing boots or hard toed shoe's then you want to hit with the tip for the most damage.

 

[Rumy73]

In all honesty, it doesn't matter. For true self defense you will most likely be wearing shoes which, depending on the shoe, can make it difficult to flex or point your toes. The tounge of the shoe should protect your foot from injury. If you are wearing boots or hard toed shoe's then you want to hit with the tip for the most damage.

You hit on a big problem in the martial arts, which is those persons fixated on the "right way" to do something. In reality, different paths can be taken to achieve similar results. Understanding the mechanics of a certain method is important, but it is high time people get over the notion that the way they learned it is "right." Mathematics has a single answer; arts do not.

 

[Gnarlie]

An excellent video. Seen it many times. Not the best for referencing how to perform the kick according to kikkiwon standards, but an excellent old school video.

I know it's a typo and it's off topic, but I love it. I'm calling it Kikkiwon from now on.

On topic, I think this kick is applicable with any of the methods suggested in this thread, and for the purposes of form that looks nice, I find the ball of the foot prettiest when the foot is pointed as in apchagi.

Under application this works as the kick follows a twisting block, so a turned forward kick to the front of the face makes sense at the reduced range. As does a ball of the foot with a turning kick foot flexed to the temple. Or the top of the foot to the softer tissue of the neck. Under application I tend to unbalance with the twisting block grabbing, so the actual direction and nature of the kick is entirely dependent on the reaction from the opponent, which is different every time.



Gnarlie

 

[chrispillertkd]

Can you point to a video of that kick, it does not seem like a very good way to do a side kick to me?

Well, the important thing to remember is that it's not a side kick if you mean side piercing kick. A side thrusting kick has a different attacking tool (ball of the foot vs. the footsword) and different target area (primarily the front of the body). A side piercing kick, on the other hand, is primarily used against targets on the side of the body (temple, armpit, floating ribs, and neck artery), although vital spots on the front of the body can be attacked as secondary targets.

They are two different kicks, not just two different ways to perform a single kick.

Speaking from experience, getting hit with a Side Thrusting Kick can hurt since the force of the kick is focused on a small attacking tool and directed to generally softer target areas.

A good example of the Side Thrusting Kick being executed can be seen in the following video of Joel Denis performing Moon-Moo. The kick is executed twice from 1:22-1:30 (Side Checking Kick to Side Thrusting Kick into a Knife-Hand Strike):

Edit: I have no idea what I'm doing wrong with the video embedding but I can't get it to work so if you want to see the video you'll have to follow the link. Sorry.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

A good example of the Side Thrusting Kick being executed can be seen in the following video of Joel Denis performing Moon-Moo. The kick is executed twice from 1:22-1:30

Very crisp - nice!

 

[Dirty Dog]

You hit on a big problem in the martial arts, which is those persons fixated on the "right way" to do something. In reality, different paths can be taken to achieve similar results. Understanding the mechanics of a certain method is important, but it is high time people get over the notion that the way they learned it is "right." Mathematics has a single answer; arts do not.

So are you seriously suggesting that we tell students 'just toss yur foot out there any ole way'?
This thread is about a very specific move, and in this case there IS a single right answer. Do it the way the governing body wants. If that's not clear (and in this case it's not, since we've seen several different KKW-released videos showing different methods) then do it the way your own instructor wants it done.

 

[Rumy73]

So are you seriously suggesting that we tell students 'just toss yur foot out there any ole way'?
This thread is about a very specific move, and in this case there IS a single right answer. Do it the way the governing body wants. If that's not clear (and in this case it's not, since we've seen several different KKW-released videos showing different methods) then do it the way your own instructor wants it done.

Clearly, you did not read what I said. Take another look.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You hit on a big problem in the martial arts, which is those persons fixated on the "right way" to do something. In reality, different paths can be taken to achieve similar results. Understanding the mechanics of a certain method is important, but it is high time people get over the notion that the way they learned it is "right." Mathematics has a single answer; arts do not.

Clearly, you did not read what I said. Take another look.

Actually, I did, or I wouldn't have replied. I've quoted it (again) in case you don't recall what you wrote.

This thread is about a specific move in a specific form. There is most certainly a "right way" to do it. And if we intend to improve, we NEED to be "fixated on the 'right way'" to perform the kick.

If you had some other meaning in mind, perhaps you'd care to explain yourself, because frankly I don't see any other way to interpret your post, in the context of the discussion at hand.

 

[BoA36]

In Sport Poomsae, per WTF, both types are acceptable in Taeguk 6, however both kicks must be the same. So you cannot do the first kick with ball of the foot and second with the instep. This has changed over the last few years as only the ball of the foot was accepted previously.

Bo

 

[msmitht]

I'll say it again: the kick is done with the instep. I just asked a poomsae IR and he confirmed that is the official competition way. Done with this thread.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I'll say it again: the kick is done with the instep. I just asked a poomsae IR and he confirmed that is the official competition way. Done with this thread.

The "correct" way to perform techniques for WTF competition don't necessarily line up with the Kukkiwon standard. At this year's FIC this point was made numerous times. The Kukkiwon instructors stressed that if you are competing, you should follow WTF competition standards for poomsae.

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[Gwai Lo Dan]

The "correct" way to perform techniques for WTF competition don't necessarily line up with the Kukkiwon standard.

That's a very interesting point. I always thought of WTF as sparring competition, and Kukkiwon as the BB organisation. But when you have a poomsae competition, you are doing KKW forms in a WTF competition. I hadn't thought of the nuance that the 2 organisations may have different views on the "correct" or "preferred" way for a pattern.

 

[chrispillertkd]

The "correct" way to perform techniques for WTF competition don't necessarily line up with the Kukkiwon standard. At this year's FIC this point was made numerous times. The Kukkiwon instructors stressed that if you are competing, you should follow WTF competition standards for poomsae.

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This is not the first time I've heard this (that the WTF and KKW have different standards for KKW patterns), but I have never seen an answer to why that is. Any idea for the reasoning behind the WTF having different technical standards than the KKW in this area? Since you have to perform the patterns for promotion according to KKW standards I'd think it would be easier just to adopt the KKW standards wholesale.

Pax,

Chris