Question on Defense: "uke" vs "boxing defense"

[chrissyp]

ok, so first let me explain a few things. I wasn't sure what section to post this under, but since the main basis is on karate, I thought this would be the most appropriate.

So a bit a bout my background real fast. I'm a boxer/thai boxer and MMA fighter for about 10 years now. I've switched over to Shotokan to think outside the box, and to just generally to have fun.

As I been learning Shotokan, the uke/block techniques are the ones that fascinate me the most. One of the reasons for picking up Karate, was this very reason, because on the street and in MMA you won't have big gloves to defend with.

So with that said, in my mind, Uke techniques sound more realistic, for MMA/street defense...but how come you never see it, in say MMA for example?

Is it not very realistic? Is the learning curve to high? Or is this "boxing" style of defense just what fighters are trained and used to?

 

[drop bear]

Because you can't see punches at speed.

 

[jobo]

ok, so first let me explain a few things. I wasn't sure what section to post this under, but since the main basis is on karate, I thought this would be the most appropriate.

So a bit a bout my background real fast. I'm a boxer/thai boxer and MMA fighter for about 10 years now. I've switched over to Shotokan to think outside the box, and to just generally to have fun.

As I been learning Shotokan, the uke/block techniques are the ones that fascinate me the most. One of the reasons for picking up Karate, was this very reason, because on the street and in MMA you won't have big gloves to defend with.

So with that said, in my mind, Uke techniques sound more realistic, for MMA/street defense...but how come you never see it, in say MMA for example?

Is it not very realistic? Is the learning curve to high? Or is this "boxing" style of defense just what fighters are trained and used to?

It's a complicated question, and there's certainly an element of what drop beat said, if your up against a trained Fighter,you might block one or even two punches but a barrage of punches will see you on the floor reaction time isn't good enough . That's why boxers cover up when they are in trouble, but covering up isn't THE boxing defence, being evasive is. Boxers are really really difficult to hit as they keep moving, wait to you overextend and then knock you over.

Where as karate has a no retreat , power through them ,Japanese philosophy,

Only a lunatic would try and block a kick if they can move.
But then your trying to apply it to street defence, most people and I mean 90something % of people can't fight, even those that do a lot, their punches are telegraphed, they don't throw lightning fast combination. Block them and punch them in the thrOat . Karate is just fine for self defence, unless your attacked by a good boxer Or a mma guy, in which case you may have a good fight on your hands

 

[now disabled]

Uke ? what are you meaning by that term? as it may mean something different than I am thinking?

 

[Danny T]

As one who has trained in MT & MMA I assume you have sparred...would you utilize such blocking as a primary defense?
I believe that the so called 'uke/block' techniques are more attacks than blocks. To begin with uke doesn't mean block but receive, therefore uke waze techniques aren't about blocking. When done at the low levels of training they are more for beginners to learn to have structure and to help tempering. Actual applications aren't blocks.

 

[hoshin1600]

The blocks would have to be defined because not all blocks for every style are the same and we could be talking about different things. But in general I see many blocks as attacks like Danny said. It's a different way of looking at fighting. As soon as I see motion I'm moving in with my attacking block. I'm still going to eat that overhand right but not 100% and I'm trying to bust up your arm and shoulder.
In sport that is not optimal because I didn't score any point but the other guy did. So they really have no function in sport.
A hard block is an action that has an underlying tactic and that tactic has fallen out of use due to sport. After around 70 years of sport karate people forget or never learned how to use it. Boxing bob & weave and other tactics have a shorter learning curve. Our conceptual understanding of fighting has changed so blocking like this is seldom used.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

The only solution i have is, its difficult to block someones strike by doing a parry type move.* Its easier to cover or just move out of the way. Also dont fix whats not broken, if it works you tend not to stray.

(play fights teach you this quite well)

* By block i mean that standard arm flick block. Where you intend and move the opponents arm off the line it was attacking in and move out the way.

I think its one of those those things that when you need it there is no supplement for it, but other things fill its other roles.

(disregard this if you mean another block or a block which is a strike and used as such)

 

[Headhunter]

Well I know nothing about shotokan blocks but I've always used karate style blocks in every sport I've fought in and done very well with them. In boxing, kickboxing and Mma that's how I've always blocked and very rarely used the boxing style blocks and I've never been knocked down in a fight so they do work. I'm not a fan of the boxing style because even if the gloves are taking most of it you're still getting the thud on your head

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I use 'karate style' hard blocks, just not how you see them in practice. One thing i like, having a tight guard, and waiting for a jab. When it comes, using what i call a '4 block' while angling forward in quickly as my entrance. Sometimes i get the block and it jams the other guys movements, sometimes i dont but having my hand there is useful if he tries to follow up. It doesnt look like a 'karate block' but thats essentially what it is

 

[Mitlov]

It's a complicated question, and there's certainly an element of what drop beat said, if your up against a trained Fighter,you might block one or even two punches but a barrage of punches will see you on the floor reaction time isn't good enough . That's why boxers cover up when they are in trouble, but covering up isn't THE boxing defence, being evasive is. Boxers are really really difficult to hit as they keep moving, wait to you overextend and then knock you over.

Where as karate has a no retreat , power through them ,Japanese philosophy,

I disagree. Evasive movement (tai sabaki) is very much part of karate, and the Machidas in particular are known for their evasive movement when compared to non-karate-based MMA competitors.

Getting back to the original poster's question, a traditional "uke" karate block works great against something like a stepping punch--a singular committed attack. Those rarely happen outside of prearranged two-person drills, so I like to think of the uke "blocks" actually as offensive forearm strikes, which can be directed against arms, body, head, etc.

 

[Buka]

Sometimes the answer lies within. With a decade of experience in boxing, Muay Thai and MMA maybe we should be asking you that question. So if we did....how would you answer?

 

[wab25]

This is an interesting article: Lyoto Machida: Old-School Karate
Its about how Funakoshi actually taught that gedan-barai (down block) as a throw. A bunch of the other karate moves, are actually something else, not what they are named. Lots of people get stuck on the name, which is there to help teach the motion. The application of the motion is many times very different. The article also has examples of gedan-barai being used as a throw, in a UFC match against a Judo player... Anyway, its a great article on how to view Shotokan Karate, which is a little different than you get from the strip mall McShotokan dojo.

 

[chrissyp]

I disagree. Evasive movement (tai sabaki) is very much part of karate, and the Machidas in particular are known for their evasive movement when compared to non-karate-based MMA competitors.

Getting back to the original poster's question, a traditional "uke" karate block works great against something like a stepping punch--a singular committed attack. Those rarely happen outside of prearranged two-person drills, so I like to think of the uke "blocks" actually as offensive forearm strikes, which can be directed against arms, body, head, etc.

That's a good answer. The way i use uke, isnt just to say block, i use it like a forarm strike, mixed with moving off/tai sabaki and countering. The more i practice, more i csn see about it being good against 1 or 2 strikes and not a barrage, but i also dont intend to use it to stay in one spot and just block and defend.... defend, angle away and counter!

 

[chrissyp]

This is an interesting article: Lyoto Machida: Old-School Karate
Its about how Funakoshi actually taught that gedan-barai (down block) as a throw. A bunch of the other karate moves, are actually something else, not what they are named. Lots of people get stuck on the name, which is there to help teach the motion. The application of the motion is many times very different. The article also has examples of gedan-barai being used as a throw, in a UFC match against a Judo player... Anyway, its a great article on how to view Shotokan Karate, which is a little different than you get from the strip mall McShotokan dojo.

This was great! All very true stuff. Thank you!

 

[Mitlov]

This is an interesting article: Lyoto Machida: Old-School Karate
Its about how Funakoshi actually taught that gedan-barai (down block) as a throw. A bunch of the other karate moves, are actually something else, not what they are named. Lots of people get stuck on the name, which is there to help teach the motion. The application of the motion is many times very different. The article also has examples of gedan-barai being used as a throw, in a UFC match against a Judo player... Anyway, its a great article on how to view Shotokan Karate, which is a little different than you get from the strip mall McShotokan dojo.

I really, really like the animated gif showing Machida using a "stepping forward low block" as a trip.

 

[wab25]

The more i practice, more i csn see about it being good against 1 or 2 strikes and not a barrage, but i also dont intend to use it to stay in one spot and just block and defend.... defend, angle away and counter!

If you read the article I posted, and look at the Karate style blocks from the article's point of view... they work great against barrages.

Think of the inside to outside, mid block (ude uke, I believe). If you use your right arm, to come up under the others guys right arm, nice and deep... like at his elbow, when you get to the "blocking" part of the motion, you should be turning the other guy away from you. If you are taking the deep lunge step, the article talks about that step taking you almost behind the other guy... now that block is about closing distance, and getting to your opponents back. Now, in order for the attacker to continue his barrage, he has to turn and get you off his back. (you can even use your left to parry their right punch, before starting ude uke, underneath his right elbow...)

However, if you are trying to maintain punching distance, with your Karate blocks... his combo will tear you apart. But use the tai sabaki to get off line, the lunge step to close distance and the "block" to turn the other guy and cover your entrance... now you have something.

 

[chrissyp]

. But use the tai sabaki to get off line, the lunge step to close distance and the "block" to turn the other guy and cover your entrance... now you have something.

Thats exactly what im trying to do! I also use the block to open up angles to strike. But im defiantly going to research all this more!

 

[wab25]

Thats exactly what im trying to do! I also use the block to open up angles to strike. But im defiantly going to research all this more!

Definitely post back here with what you find. I for one, am interested in what you find!

 

[chrissyp]

Definitely post back here with what you find. I for one, am interested in what you find!

From my experiences it works. But you ha e to use your foot work/ tai sabaki for other shots

 

[chrissyp]

So from what i see, the best example of how i personally apply uke, is very similar to Enshin karate, which seems the best way to play uke: redirect attack to create angles, angle out /tai sabaki to get out of counter attack range, and strike back right away