Honor

[Henderson]

I do not mean to nitpick details, but I believe some people are confusing the two terms being used in this thread... Honor & Respect.

Honor is something you have based on how you conduct yourself.
Respect is what is earned, and given by others, in recognition of honorable traits.

i.e....Joe conducts himself with honor. Therefore, I respect Joe.

Just my $.02

Frank

 

[Sin]

I do not mean to nitpick details, but I believe some people are confusing the two terms being used in this thread... Honor & Respect.

Honor is something you have based on how you conduct yourself.
Respect is what is earned, and given by others, in recognition of honorable traits.

i.e....Joe conducts himself with honor. Therefore, I respect Joe.

Just my $.02

Frank

::claps:: exactly

 

[Ceicei]

I do not mean to nitpick details, but I believe some people are confusing the two terms being used in this thread... Honor & Respect.

Honor is something you have based on how you conduct yourself.
Respect is what is earned, and given by others, in recognition of honorable traits.

i.e....Joe conducts himself with honor. Therefore, I respect Joe.

Just my $.02

Frank

Very well said!

- Ceicei

 

[MA-Caver]

Agreed, nicely put Frank.

As I read all of the input and Terry's very sincere and modest attempt to be humble :asian: I got to thinking about my own ideas of the words Honor & Respect.
To me both are given as well as earned.
Twice in my life I've been honored by the senior most masters of their respective arts. The first time the honor was twice given to me by Sifu Yip-sing (Wing Chun) one (however indirectly) was the honor of being one of the interpreters at a seminar where he was present; two was that he pulled me aside from the group as they were practicing a tech he was teaching and showed me hands on how to do it, this he did throughout the day's class. He could have chosen anyone from among the group but the honor was mine that he chose me.
Second Master was Ed Parker Jr. when I interpreted a seminar for him. True in this case again it was indirectly given as a student requested my services but still to be able to do so in the presence of this honorable individual ... again the honor was mine to hold.
Both of these gentlemen have my highest respect.
(sorry that I'm not as brief as Frank is )
If someone young does not give an individual the respect they deserve then that person does themselves the dishonor, and they lose whatever respect that they might have earned.

My oldest brother taught me that same principal outlined by Frank; it took me (IMO) far too long to learn it. But I am ever grateful that I have learned it.
As an instructor (not MA) myself I appreciate the respect given to me (however informally) by my students. This evening one of them took an extra long lunch-break just to attend a meeting I was at to say hello before zipping off back to work.

I don't think it's fair to generalize the younger generation of today as being value-less and dis-respectful. There will always be those around. Just be patient with them (young people of today) and they may very well surprise you as this young lady did me tonight.
The respect I got was equal to the respect I gave her when I was instructing. For that reason (among others ) I have my honor.

:asian:

 

[cfr]

This thread is about honor and respect for the Master and instructore who have given and given and never ask for anything in return to those I bow and ask them to be recoginized by the student of MA everywhere.

But what about all the quacks out there these days? How does a newbie to MA differentiate the real from the false. I could open a school tomorrow(which Im simply not qualified to do) and claim to have many years in the arts. "Im am Grand Master CFR, and founder of of the deadliest style in the world, CFR-do". Ill agree that people age and arent capable of doing things in theyre later years that they were in they younger years. I have the utmost (respect, honor, etc.) for my instructor. We train in his garage, dont bow, have no belt system, I call him by his first name, he doesnt charge me a dime, and is always open to doing something different. I have this respect for him because I've gotten to know him, and he's a decent guy. I respect what he's done in MA, Ill give you that. But I respect him for the quality of a person he is.

 

[terryl965]

But what about all the quacks out there these days? How does a newbie to MA differentiate the real from the false. I could open a school tomorrow(which Im simply not qualified to do) and claim to have many years in the arts. "Im am Grand Master CFR, and founder of of the deadliest style in the world, CFR-do". Ill agree that people age and arent capable of doing things in theyre later years that they were in they younger years. I have the utmost (respect, honor, etc.) for my instructor. We train in his garage, dont bow, have no belt system, I call him by his first name, he doesnt charge me a dime, and is always open to doing something different. I have this respect for him because I've gotten to know him, and he's a decent guy. I respect what he's done in MA, Ill give you that. But I respect him for the quality of a person he is.

Very well put CFR, as a consumer it is up to them to determine there instructor certificates and there knowledge. When one goes to the gym and they want a personal trainer the evaluate them and pick from the masses same should be going on in ma go to different schools take the time to find the right school, just don't join the first one you walk in.
AS FOR YOUR Sifu sounds like geniune guy, you are lucky to have a instructor like that.
Terry

 

[cfr]

AS FOR YOUR Sifu sounds like geniune guy, you are lucky to have a instructor like that.
Terry

I asked him one time if I should call him Sifu, and he said "no, Im your training partner". I am lucky.

 

[PatMunk]

I never really thought about stuff like this, so my question is one of curiosity. Im not trying to piss anyone off or start a debate, Im just fairly ignorant to what you're talking about and curious. From your point of view, do you think that someone desrves respect just because they are a long time MA'er? Im not saying I disagree, but dont really know that I do agree either, if that makes sense. To say I have respect for someone just because they are a long time MA'er may be full of ignorance. Perhaps that MA'er is using his wife as a punching bag. Perhaps he is a rude, uncaring, obscene person. Perhaps he uses his skills to inflict harm on others. Perhaps he is a criminal. Now please nobody tell me that these would be rare circumstances for a lifetime MA'er. I concede to that point and agree. But it does happen. I guess I'd be curious to know how the lifetime MA'er is living OUTSIDE of the dojo, where it really counts.

What you've said here is what he's talking about ... Someone with honor and respect wouldn't be doing the things you've mentioned.

 

[cfr]

What you've said here is what he's talking about ... Someone with honor and respect wouldn't be doing the things you've mentioned.

And unless you get to know him, what makes you think hes not doing those things? Simply because hes been an MA'er for a long time? IMO, thats extremely naive thinking. True we never really know somebody, but simply being in MA for a long time doesnt gaurantee a fine upstanding chap in my eyes.

 

[PatMunk]

And unless you get to know him, what makes you think hes not doing those things? Simply because hes been an MA'er for a long time? IMO, thats extremely naive thinking. True we never really know somebody, but simply being in MA for a long time doesnt gaurantee a fine upstanding chap in my eyes.

You missed my point. I'm not saying that just because someone is a long time student/teacher of Martial arts should be considered honorable or respectful.

What I'm saying is if someone is honorable whether a martial artist or not they wouldn't be doing those type of things. The only way you can determine whether a person is honorable or not is to get to know something about them first.

There have been many cases in my 30 years in the martial arts that I've met people where I respect and honor the rank and level they've attained but haven't respected the person.

I feel that you should honor the rank/level because it should hold honor. Now the person having the rank that's another story. They should show that they deserve it before it can be respected.

If someone has a certain rank in the martial arts I feel that you should treat then with honor and respect the rank if nothing else because the rank should demand it. However, once the person shows they don't deserve the respect, honor then they are the ones that have to live with it, and people will treat them accordingly.

You can have honor with the rank, and you can have the rank without the honor, but I've found that most with honor and respect had it before they got the rank and time in.

I don't think that if you have no honor you'll automatically get it once high rank or years in the arts. It's not something that comes with studying something. It's how you act, respect others, and treat your fellow man, that makes someone honorable. Respect is a side affect of being honorable.

 

[nightpelt]

honor is something you get when you work for it and you help others with what they need.

 

[cfr]

You missed my point. I'm not saying that just because someone is a long time student/teacher of Martial arts should be considered honorable or respectful.

What I'm saying is if someone is honorable whether a martial artist or not they wouldn't be doing those type of things. The only way you can determine whether a person is honorable or not is to get to know something about them first.

There have been many cases in my 30 years in the martial arts that I've met people where I respect and honor the rank and level they've attained but haven't respected the person.

I feel that you should honor the rank/level because it should hold honor. Now the person having the rank that's another story. They should show that they deserve it before it can be respected.

If someone has a certain rank in the martial arts I feel that you should treat then with honor and respect the rank if nothing else because the rank should demand it. However, once the person shows they don't deserve the respect, honor then they are the ones that have to live with it, and people will treat them accordingly.

You can have honor with the rank, and you can have the rank without the honor, but I've found that most with honor and respect had it before they got the rank and time in.

I don't think that if you have no honor you'll automatically get it once high rank or years in the arts. It's not something that comes with studying something. It's how you act, respect others, and treat your fellow man, that makes someone honorable. Respect is a side affect of being honorable.

Awesome.

 

[Kacey]

You missed my point. I'm not saying that just because someone is a long time student/teacher of Martial arts should be considered honorable or respectful.

What I'm saying is if someone is honorable whether a martial artist or not they wouldn't be doing those type of things. The only way you can determine whether a person is honorable or not is to get to know something about them first.

There have been many cases in my 30 years in the martial arts that I've met people where I respect and honor the rank and level they've attained but haven't respected the person.

I feel that you should honor the rank/level because it should hold honor. Now the person having the rank that's another story. They should show that they deserve it before it can be respected.

If someone has a certain rank in the martial arts I feel that you should treat then with honor and respect the rank if nothing else because the rank should demand it. However, once the person shows they don't deserve the respect, honor then they are the ones that have to live with it, and people will treat them accordingly.

You can have honor with the rank, and you can have the rank without the honor, but I've found that most with honor and respect had it before they got the rank and time in.

I don't think that if you have no honor you'll automatically get it once high rank or years in the arts. It's not something that comes with studying something. It's how you act, respect others, and treat your fellow man, that makes someone honorable. Respect is a side affect of being honorable.

Very nicely stated - I was thinking along these lines as I read through the thread, but this is more clearly put than I think I would have managed. Thank you for sharing it.

 

[DArnold]

I find this a very interesting thread but also find that most of the posts are grasping at what the actual meaning of "RESPECT" is.

Just as some of you have touched on other aspects: Honor, Trust, Courtsey... which would be used to define MORAL CULTURE. These concepts - Rank, Moral Culture, Respect... seem hard to grasp because many are trying to put quantative measurements on them. Most martial arts (not recent fighting styles) knew that a code of conduct must be taught.

WHY?

Well now we grapple with what is the meaning of Rank.
Is it just a time paramater that some organization sets?
Should I receive more respect than you based on years of training?
The reason for the time paramater is for the student to mature, learn, and be tested mentally just as much as physically.

(I heard once somewhere that in the orient you are not an adult until you are 40 and boy that does seem true based on what you are seeing)

Many instructors don't know that it is the purpose of the instructor to put hurdles in front of the student where the student may quite. Hurdels that the student will not want to face. And this is mental, not physical. Any instructor can put physical requirements on a student. No matter how good a student is I can have them throwing up in a matter of minutes. That is not a challenge. Ahhh, but changing someones life, that lasts forever!

The instructor must chanllenge and test the students mental ability before promoting them.
At this I must say my instructor is a true Master.

Let me give you the most basic example: In my class, as many others, if you are late you must do 20 push-ups before you are allowed to enter class, no matter what the excuse, it's still and excuse. Late is late!
This is a mental test, not a physical test. I have had many students not show up or quite because they did not want to do 20 push-ups.
The reason this is a mental test is - Do I want to teach someone how to kill another human being that could not overcome such a simple mental task. No, and it is better for both them and me that they leave. Simple tests such as these tell you about a persons mental capabilities.

Reguardless of the physical tallent if the student is immature (of which many of you have illuded to) what does it matter if they can kick and punch.

I would venture to say that many problems are brought on by many reasons: Instructors needing to make a living - so they promote, Instructors afraid a student will quite if an instructor does not promote them. Instructors afraid to face mental issues with a student. (God knows some times its hard enough just to teach them how to punch and kick, let alone be responsible for them as a person.

God, I can teach how to kick and punch. Any instructor will tell you that that is the easy part. But you are much more than an instructor, you are a MENTOR - meaning - Insturctor, Mother, Father, Doctor, Lawyer, Shrink, Confidant...

But isn't that what it is? When you teach the student, don't they represent "YOU", the instructor?

So many who have not been mentally trained have been promoted to a high rank thinking that MA's is 100% physical. But they are black belts and not martial artists.

I feel it is a greater compliment to be called a Martial Artist rather than a black belt as that is the meaning of "DO". And I don't consider some first Dan who is strong and can beat up some people a Martal Artist.

When we talk of Moral Culture, how would you define this?
How would you teach it?

I have seen some organizations try to mandate Moral Culture by forced requirements and submission. However this was far from successful as it was only viewed as one more pain in the A$$ requirement that had to be acheived to get the belt. It is taught by example.

So back to respect which is a part of culture

What is the definition of the word?
I grabed this off Dictionary.com which is a similar version of what you would find most places:

RESPECT

1. To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.
2. To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit.
3. To relate or refer to; concern.

So what is DEFERENCE:

Submission or courteous yielding to the opinion, wishes, or judgment of another
_____________________________

So why would you submit or yield to the opinion, wishes or judgement of another?

When you look at definition 3 it start to bring it home more. "To relate or refer to". I like to use the term, "with regards to...".

With regards to the color of a piece of cloth on their waste?
Related to the number of years they have practiced?
Refering to how good a fighter they are?

NO.

It is with RESPECT to what they can or have given to me. -
KNOWLEDGE
And some times I have learned a lot by someone kicking my A$$
So respect must be earned every time you put your belt on, not by what you get, but by what you give.

Well that sounds pretty selfish doesn't it?

YES,

What are your reasons for practicing your art?
Yourself? Or so that others will respect you?
Only when you have expectations will you be disapointed.

But when you think about it, "what they can or have given to me" is much broader than it sounds.

What they have given to you - The knowledge, the ability, the love for your art.

What they can give to you - (How do you know who can give you what?) How would you know what any person can teach you? Is there any among you that have not learned from a beginner? From an old person? From a young person?

These young pups who are insecure and need to argue "My style is better than your style" are fighting for piece of mind within themselves. Hopeing to validate what they chose as a style. Because God, wouldn't it be devestating if you chose the "wrong" style? In this stage they have related respect in only an upward direction. They feel a need to earn respect like they did their belt.

As an example:
Perhaps I can not go 15 rounds anymore...
but I can teach you how.

Perhaps I am out of shape...
but I can teach you how to break a stack of cement with your hand

But why would I do this when your mental attitude is not correct. When you have shown me you can not controll your mind by the simplest, non physical exercise of "RESPECT"

Didn't someone say, "Don't cast your perls before swine"?

As this has delved into the more phylosophical reasons of the problem listed here this can be put in simpler terms:

Respect is not a social status to be gained.

Rank does not mean you get respect, it means you give respect.

It is the measure of the giver, not the receiver.

You will find that a true Martial Artist does not care about the respect that is given to them. They are more concerned with how they are perceived because they know that the only person you practice respect for...

is yourself.




And it's late and I'm toddlin' off to bed

 

[Ceicei]

DArnold,

Thank you for making that post. You've brought up several points that caused me to pause. It made me reflect upon the ways people (myself included) conduct ourselves. Thank you for giving me that much needed opportunity to see where I can focus on self-improvement.

- Ceicei

 

[MA-Caver]

DArnold.... I bow to you. :asian:

Wonderful post.

 

[Makalakumu]

Yes, I hate to say so but there is more respect in boxing gyms that I've visited (or trained in) than in many martial arts schools these days. The head coach could be 65 years old, but heaven help the young kid who disrespects him. To this day (were he still alive), I couldn't imagine calling my first boxing coach by his first name. Not that it would be disrespect to call your coach by their first name, particularly if they request it, rather because he didn't and his wishes on the matter would be as respected as he was.

I also think the MMA phenomenon has done much in its way to damage traditional respect and courtesy. This doesn't mean I'm against, MMA, don't get me wrong, it is just hard to take the know-it-all 19 year old MMA student who mouths off that "Karate sucks".

I would have to say that of all of the dojos and dojangs that I've trained in, the only one where honor and respect equaled that of the boxing gym I trained in, is my teacher's dojang.

I also agree that MMA in general has been a huge factor in running down honor and respect in the MA. The "take what works and throw away what doesn't" attitude doesn't lead people toward very much insightful patience. There are exceptions, I know, but from my experience, there is a lot of "I'll respect you only if you can beat me" attitude.

 

[rbzak1]

Great thread! I've noticed that many people equate Honor with 'acting right' or 'doing what's right', not just in this thread but when speaking with people from many different walks of life. My question is...what's right? Is doing what's right in the eyes of OTHERS honorable...thus earning respect? Or is doing what's right to US, to our belief system, to our set of morals and standards or our own personal code of ethics MORE honorable than doing things the way OTHERS expect us to? As an example...Say a person has robbed, cheated and stolen because doing these things do NOT go against his own code of conduct tells himself that ANYONE who does ANYTHING wrong to a child should be chopped into pieces. He then sees someone doing something wrong to a child, stops him, drags him away and because HE gave HIMSELF a rule for his personal code of conduct, proceeds to chop the other guy into peices. Robbing, cheating, lying, stealing, and killing...is this an honorable person? Again...this is a great thread!

 

[DArnold]

Great thread! I've noticed that many people equate Honor with 'acting right' or 'doing what's right', not just in this thread but when speaking with people from many different walks of life. My question is...what's right? Is doing what's right in the eyes of OTHERS honorable...thus earning respect? Or is doing what's right to US, to our belief system, to our set of morals and standards or our own personal code of ethics MORE honorable than doing things the way OTHERS expect us to? As an example...Say a person has robbed, cheated and stolen because doing these things do NOT go against his own code of conduct tells himself that ANYONE who does ANYTHING wrong to a child should be chopped into pieces. He then sees someone doing something wrong to a child, stops him, drags him away and because HE gave HIMSELF a rule for his personal code of conduct, proceeds to chop the other guy into peices. Robbing, cheating, lying, stealing, and killing...is this an honorable person? Again...this is a great thread!

Your questions bring up shades of "The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy"
But I will not answer with 42

It is that you don't understand the question.
But first some of your points above need issue.

If as above you state "doing things the way OTHERS expect us to" and "in the eyes of OTHERS honorable" and "thus earning respect?" it sounds like a good portion of your question is based on what others think.

To this the answer is, "Who cares"
The only person that should be important to you is you. And though you may believe this... many of your questions don't show it.

Society has its laws and values.
You must determine what yours are.
You may choose any outside of your current society as you stated above.
Just as many students choose to act out in class.

What was that old saying...

The nail that sticks out gets pounded in.
________________________________________

There are a few points that must be made to continue.

In today's society many are looking for the answer to many questions of life. And a vast majority will buy into someone who tells them they have the answer. If it is "Buy my book and I can show you how to get rich", "Take my pill and you will loose weight", "Come to my class and I can show you how to defend yourself".
A great majority of these are people who have worked hard to achieve some level, but the next level for them is to sell what they have done.

Similar, within the martial arts, there comes a time in most peoples career where they are looking for the exact right way to do things. Side kick, Kata, block, self-defense.

The only answer is - their is no "one answer".

There are many ways to do a side kick.
And as some learn the hard way... even a bad side kick can hurt you! You must stay with the style that is going to make you happy, because when your happy you will practice, when you practice you will become more competant (maybe even dangerous ).

So most humans, by nature, want/enjoy something to believe in.
Why are people drawn to the martial arts. Many reasons. But no matter what the reason the majority learn to love the art because of the value it adds to their life. Many are looking for self-discipline because they were not taught it by the schools or society. Many are looking for mental control because they are not at peace within themselves...whatever.

Most arts give you a great set of values to follow...
but do not realize that the physical side of an art - is half of the art.
The heart and sole of an art is the values/code they teach.
An example would be Taekwon-Do values:

• Courtesy
• Integrity
• Perseverance
• Self Control
• Indomitable Spirit

When following these they answer most of the questions you have above.
Integrity means you do what you believe is right reguardlass of "if anyone knows or not", or Indomitable Spirit means you continue no mater if you win or not.

Most of the problems that are disgusting many within the arts are when higher ranks either use their teachings to their own means or they stray from their teachings.

Most people love martial arts for what it has done for their lives.
But as I stated above people want someone to give them the answers.

And here is the big problem:

The codes that martial arts follow are good.

But as we haggle about things like respect you will find that most all students in their streggle to understand this foreign culture will associate the code of conduct with a high rank or instructor.

I have seen many instructors who profess a code, and as the code is good, people will follow the instructor. Then the instructor will turn around and lie cheat and steal from their students. (Sell rank, date the students in the class, lavish themselves with accolades...)

And when you read any studies on loyalty you will find that they all tell you that loyalty can lead you down a path that you know is wrong. This is where many get suckered in. A class structure builds a trusting environment which can be highly vaunerable to being burned.

Some people go to synagogue, church, temple... once a week to hear someone preach to them what they should be doing. In the arts you actually practice a philosophy/way of life several times a week. This is where the unknown love comes from as you are actually practicing something you know is good.

Sometimes a code can become dangerous and start to replace peoples religion. But isn't religion part of the history of the arts? Keep these straight!

Weren't many arts taught by religious people as a way of mental discipline, a way of physical meditation?

Don't you forget about all life's troubles when you work out?
Don't you notice how stress starts to creep back in when you stop working out?

Your code similar to society's code will continually change.

Immanent Domain.
Roe vs. Wade.
Muslim vs. Christian

You can ask which of these is right?

The conflict and the beauty is that there is no absolute.
Only by you continually asking the questions you did will you see the vastness of the question.

The short answer is:

Life is the journey that will answer your question above.

And make sure you follow the teachings and not the man.




Once again it's time to toddle of to bed.

 

[CuongNhuka]

There are still people with honor in the martial arts. There always will be. But now there are less of them. There were always people with no respect for other martial artist. There always will be. The secret to being a TRUELY GOOD MARTIAL ARTIST is to be honorable yourself, and let the unhonorable alone.
Be the better martial artist. Be the better person. Show them the way, if they don't what it, them leave them alone. Stress morals, honor, and diginity in your school. The more good martial artists you make, the better. If that means you have to go out and create your own style and have at the differnit ranks philosophy requirements, then do it.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade (and guide your thoughts),

John