Question about joining a dojo

[Chris Parker]

Absolutely. For me, Koto is a Ninjutsu art due to it's history with heads such as Momochi Sandayu, along with Gyokko Ryu. However, it has been used by Ninjutsu groupings as well as Samurai, so we could go either way with it.

As for the individual focus, Koto being Koppojutsu and Gyokko being Kosshijutsu, I see those as being the aspects of the original Ninjutsu systems that have been preserved. You may recall that arts like Takagi Yoshin Ryu began as a weapons-based system, coming out of (primarily) 2 arts focussed on Sojutsu, with the Jujutsu portion only beginning from the second head, who had some run-ins with the head of the Takenouchi Ryu, and found his Jujutsu sadly lacking. Later, when it came in contact with Kukishin Ryu, it dropped it's weapon systems in favour of Kukishin's, with Kukishin leaving behind it's original Jujutsu syllabus in favour of the Takagi methods (to elaborate, the modern teachings of Kukishinden Ryu Dakentaijutsu are either from an earlier branch school, or, as some think, constructed by Takamatsu Sensei to combat the more popular karate and judo that was around. According to the same theory, at this time, and possibly in conjunction with Takamatsu Sensei, Ueno Takashi developed his Tenshin Koryu system for the same reasons).

With Koto and Gyokko, both systems originally had much larger syllabus', including a range of weaponry. Gyokko was said to feature Bo, Tanto, Spear, and Sword (Tachi), whereas Koto was very similar, but had some unique aspects to it's swordsmanship, such as Mangetsu no Kamae (to collect rain in the bo-hi), and a left-handed grip (to make the opponent think you were an amateur. So they were originally ninjutsu arts, but most of that has probally been lost, only Hatsumi Sensei could tell you for sure.

 

[Aiki Lee]

1st of all, thanks for pointing out the error of my quote. I actually had no idea it was from that play.

From my perspective though if Gyoko ryu is a form of koshijutsu, then that means that koshijutsu canbe applied to other japanese martial arts with similar tactics and principles (though I can not think of any that I know of), Koto ryu is a form of koppojutsu so any martial art that breaks the bone alinement of it's attackers as one of the main methods of unarmed fighting. Therefore if Togakure ryu is a ninjutsu system because of its practices and tactics and purpose, then a similar Japanese martial art should be able to claim itself as ninjutsu as long as it has the history to back it up.

 

[EWBell]

I think it is important to remember that koppojutsu does not necessarily mean just bone breaking, but also attacks with the bones of the body. Either way, you'll find bits of koppojutsu and koshijutsu in a great deal of martial arts, but that doesn't mean the art can be called that. If I remember correctly Yagyu Shinkage Ryu has a section of ninjutsu in its curriculum, but it isn't a ninjutsu school per se. It is all semantics if you really get down to it. Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu (koshijutsu and koppojutsu respectively) are said to have been the fighting arts used by some ninja. Does this qualify it to be called ninjutsu? Depends on perspective I guess. I don't have enough experience to make that call, and I believe only a handfull of people can. We don't know what the kuden might be at say menkyo kaiden level. There may be more than has been shown that would qualify them totally as ninjutsu schools. Has anyone ever asked Mr. Hatsumi or Tanemura Soke? Mr. Manaka? These are the men who would know.

 

[Dale Seago]

From my perspective though if Gyoko ryu is a form of koshijutsu, then that means that koshijutsu canbe applied to other japanese martial arts with similar tactics and principles (though I can not think of any that I know of). . .

Certainly the term could be applied IF it was used historically (during the feudal era) in reference to those other Japanese martial arts.

Koto ryu is a form of koppojutsu so any martial art that breaks the bone alinement of it's attackers as one of the main methods of unarmed fighting.

It would be appropriate to refer thus to any other martial art IF the term was historically used by its practitioners to refer to that art.

Therefore if Togakure ryu is a ninjutsu system because of its practices and tactics and purpose, then a similar Japanese martial art should be able to claim itself as ninjutsu as long as it has the history to back it up.

IF the "similar Japanese martial art" was historically used by the folks we today refer to as "ninja", then yes.

 

[Chris Parker]

The other thing to realise, Himura, is that various schools may use the same title or term, but that is never a sign that the technical aspects are the same, or even similar. For example, Bokuden Ryu Jujutsu and Takenouchi Ryu both use the term Koshi no Mawari, but mean very different things by it (for the record, Bokuden Ryu use it to refer to the bulk of their Jujutsu syllabus, which is suhada, or unarmoured, and primarily unarmed, whereas Takenouchi Ryu mean it to refer to the use of various small weapons when fighting in armour).

So just saying that different schools use similar terminology doesn't mean they are similar in approach, and arts that are similar in approach cannot necessarily be described with the same terminology. And if this is confusing to you, you're not alone!

 

[Aiki Lee]

Very good points by the last three posts +1 to everybody It seems to me to be a matter of perspective, but I can certainly understand and agree with all your comments.

 

[kelkenhans]

And thank you for mentioning the "Kyushin Ryu in Australia"... you know I try everyday to forget they exist, and often succeed. Oh, well.

What makes you say this?