Question about joining a dojo

[Chris Parker]

Tricky. That kind of depends on how vindictive the head of the system is. The way it seems to have been, the students would only stay with an incomplete licence holder (for want of a better term) if they showed remarkable skill, or were moving into their own art (rare, but not unheard of). Often, they would simply up and leave for another teacher. Remember, though, all the ranking, including that of the students, can be revoked if hamon is applied.

To give an example, Hatsumi Sensei in his youth was spending an exorbitant amount each month to learn "a certain kobudo from a teacher". This teacher was Ueno Takashi, and he taught Hatsumi Bokuden Ryu Jujutsu, and Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu. Hatsumi was such a quick study that he achieved Menkyo Kaiden in Asayama Ichiden within three years. At that point (according to Hatsumi), Ueno Sensei told him that he had no more that he could teach, Hatsumi would need to meet Ueno's teacher. That lead to the meeting of Hatsumi and Takamatsu for the first time. As a result, Takamatsu told Hatsumi that if he wanted to learn from him, he must accept hamon for the systems Ueno had taught him.

As I said, that is Hatsumi's version. There are others, which indicate that Ueno was more a colleague of Takamatsu who shared their martial knowledge together, rather than Ueno being Takamatsu's student. Other versions have Ueno being furious with Hatsumi, and issuing hamon for other reasons, which don't need to be entered into here.

 

[Cryozombie]

Wow,
Cryo I have never disrespected you. A douchebag, no most of them that I have met I wouldn't call that.
Mislead maybe.

cripes I am sorry I entered to the discussion.

I apologise if you feel that was directed at you. I have specific issues with a specific person mentioned earlier in this thread who claims to be a Soke of thier own Ninja Ryu, and I just quoted the number you posted because I personally don't understand why so many people need to call themselves "ninja"... What does it accomplish?

Maybe I need to start calling myself the Pope, and teaching my Bujinkan skills as "Catholic Prayer Study"

It amounts to the same thing.

 

[Cryozombie]

I personally think that any Japanese martial art that has traditional methods of stealth, espionage, and other "ninja-ish" tactics could be considered an authentic ninja art. Feel free to disagree though.

Ok Emilio.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Ok Emilio.

AHHHHH! I take it back!


Seriously though, If you go back to the kung maky ung ryu thread I state what I believe my criteria are for something to be considered ninjutsu.

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1108526#post1108526
it's post #45.

 

[Bujingodai]

Here pick on me a bit.
I call it Ninjutsu. But I don't claim any lineage, other than the training I got from the Kan and other sources.

 

[Cryozombie]

Here pick on me a bit.
I call it Ninjutsu. But I don't claim any lineage, other than the training I got from the Kan and other sources.

Dave...

It was a pretty good video, and most of the techniques seemed good. I didnt see much Ninjutsu in it tho... A lot of various techniques from some of the other Ryu to be sure... Didnt see much from the Ninjutsu ryus tho.

I'm curious, and I'm NOT picking on you... I'm trying to understand: in your opinion, what makes it Ninjutsu as opposed tojust Budo oreven just Taijutsu?

 

[Bujingodai]

I think I call it that as that is where I got my training. I have never taken another art myself so I guess it could just be called Taijutsu or Budo.
Now mind you, there isn't an inth of what we do on this vid. If you are speaking of anything outside of Taijutsu. Mind you there was a small excerpt of tracking skills on that video.

I can assure you, I actually never sought out to start a school. It happened quite by accident. It just sort of occurred and kept rolling. However over that time, things improved and we developed our thing. But at the very least I didn't create a story about it.

I have for many years felt like i would change it to Canadian Combatives or something of that nature, to be honest. I am taking the next 6-8 months off as I am moving to the city. I am focusing on my other love Paranormal Investigation, that I have been doing for some time and is going quite well.
I am afraid the politics surrrounding the arts, even in my own dojo is enough to make anyone want to push the refresh button, as I need to

Hey for craps and giggles here is a video of all our accidents.

 

[Bujingodai]

And no there isn't much there from the Ninjutsu ryu. I also didn't edit the video. I just asked for highlights to be in there.
Not to mention, I am not qualified to teach Togakure or whathaveyou so I am not going to highlght it as that.

 

[Bujingodai]

Sorry more thoughts.
Now is that a comment based on what your opinion of what encompasses Ninjutsu?
Now are you speaking of movement such as tobi waza, if so we do that but it's just not for a video. If you are speaking of movement that would be considered aggressive in certain ways offensively, no I don't put that on their either. Taisabaki and angles being used, Sanshin etc etc. Again all used just not on the vid.
Now are you also speaking of the Ninjutsu Ryu ha that you know, well I can't teach those. So then you are speaking of your own opinion. I don't teach that. So our Ninjutsu may encompass other avenues and opinions as to what makes it that.

We do work and seminars on outdoor survival, lock picking, entering and evasion, strategic deploymemt, urban survival, exotic weapons, etc etc etc. And I have no interest in joining the army to learn it either. I've had some of them train with us and it's not always too impressive.
I think that is a brainwashed cop out.

So yeah I call it that, I'm not likely to change it. I don't call myself or anyone else Ninja. I don't call myself Soke, I didn't inherit the system.
So I am not lying. And I don't present this as anything else to a student. They know right off the bat the history.
Would you care to see some vids of the other indie schools at Tai Kai's?

 

[Cryozombie]

I generally take an academic approach to the Subject... "Ninjutsu" being a specific set of skills taught by one of the 70 or so specific ryu, of which three are known to still exist, and bits and pieces of others are still known/presumed to be contained within the scrolls from some other arts but not generally taught.

Military Training, modern lockpicking, etc are all SIMILAR skills, but to me, they are what they are... Military training, lockpicking etc... after all, I don't consider the average burglar or stealthy paintballer or the kids on youtube showing how to pick locks students of "Ninjutsu" any more than I would have considered most mountain bandits in feudal Japan ninjas...

In short, I think its possible to learn similar skills, Stealth, Evasion, etc, and be Ninjutsu-like, but not actually be Ninjutsu, in much the same way I can take a VW Beetle and put a simliar Lambo body kit on it, but not actually have a Lamborghini. Thats where I'm coming from anyhow. Your milage may vary.

 

[Bujingodai]

OK fair enough I see your point.
My training for the foundation was Bujinkan, so I guess it was all I knew then to another form of the art so the name stayed.
Opinions will vary.

 

[Cryozombie]

Ya know I was thinking about it last night... Specifically Togakure-ryu and the principles it seems to follow. Mind you, I may be off base here, as these are my observations mixed with some insight shared by one of the Shihan who has done some seminars up here... The principle of Togakure-ryu SEEMS to me to be about NOT engaging in combat, but rather utilizing a "hit and run" strategy: ie, strike/throw/cut the opponent quickly in a manner that allows you to flee rather than fight... At least that's how much of the Bikenjutsu suff I've seen from the Togakure ryu was explained to us, and I believe I see that principle in the tonsugata (sp?) techniques as well. So, I would suppose if one is teaching their taijutsu with those principles and philosophies of the "ninjutsu" side of the arts perhaps one could say they were teaching "ninjutsu"... but of course not everyone would agree with this.

 

[Bujingodai]

I agree.

Now I do want before certain people jump on what I wrote about the other things we do. Lockpicking, one of my senior students is a locksmith. So we practiced it more for the "oh thats a neat little skill" than the hey I can make money cracking into homes. It has come in handy on a lockout situation at least 1X.
Just before people equate us with roving bands of idiots and LARPers.

Here at this Tai Kai, we have Ways of the Winds, Godaishin dojo, Nindo etc etc

 

[Aiki Lee]

I generally take an academic approach to the Subject... "Ninjutsu" being a specific set of skills taught by one of the 70 or so specific ryu, of which three are known to still exist, and bits and pieces of others are still known/presumed to be contained within the scrolls from some other arts but not generally taught.

Military Training, modern lockpicking, etc are all SIMILAR skills, but to me, they are what they are... Military training, lockpicking etc... after all, I don't consider the average burglar or stealthy paintballer or the kids on youtube showing how to pick locks students of "Ninjutsu" any more than I would have considered most mountain bandits in feudal Japan ninjas...

In short, I think its possible to learn similar skills, Stealth, Evasion, etc, and be Ninjutsu-like, but not actually be Ninjutsu, in much the same way I can take a VW Beetle and put a simliar Lambo body kit on it, but not actually have a Lamborghini. Thats where I'm coming from anyhow. Your milage may vary.

Would you consider a samurai art that has methods for training spies and sabatours as a kind of ninjutsu? My teacher's teacher trained in a smaller koryu school called kyu shin ryu (not to be confused with a different kyu shin ryu found in Austrailia), and this art has what could be considered by me to be ninja applications because it has this training. Or so I've heard.

 

[Chris Parker]

Would you consider a samurai art that has methods for training spies and sabatours as a kind of ninjutsu? My teacher's teacher trained in a smaller koryu school called kyu shin ryu (not to be confused with a different kyu shin ryu found in Austrailia), and this art has what could be considered by me to be ninja applications because it has this training. Or so I've heard.

Hi, Himura,

I personally wouldn't. I would probably equate it with something like Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, which is a very classical samurai system, yet includes teaching an aspect which they refer to as "ninjutsu". In this section, they basically teach some espionage (information gathering) skills, and infiltration. However, if you were to refer to the practitioners of Katori Shinto Ryu as "ninjutsu practitioners", they would most heartily disagree (and possibly get quite offended!).

The "ninjutsu" portion of their curriculuum is more theoretical, and based in principles and concepts, rather than the techniques we are used to. As a result, the art studied in Katori Shito Ryu is a samurai art, with aspects of information gathering. Oh, and for the record, the Katori Shinto Ryu shares a number of other aspects with the ryu of the Bujinkan, with teachings of Kuji and Ketsu-In, in fact, the same basic sequence is taught as exists in Kukishinden Ryu, and is founded in a number of books.

And thank you for mentioning the "Kyushin Ryu in Australia"... you know I try everyday to forget they exist, and often succeed. Oh, well.

 

[Aiki Lee]

so then what distinguishes in your mind a ninjutsu ryu and a samurai ryu with similar practices? Is it spiritual practices? The orgin of the art?

To me, a rose by any other name still smells as sweet.

 

[Chris Parker]

Well, more than anything, the use and original practitioners define a (Japanese) system in this sense. In that regard, I am with Cryo, I just don't quite limit it to Togakure.

Togakure Ryu is probably the most "ninja" of the arts, but the Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Kumogakure Ryu, and Gyokushin Ryu all have histories that give them claim to the Ninjutsu title (as well as probably Gikan Ryu, which along with Gyokushin Ryu came from Gyokko Ryu, itself originally refered to as Gyokko Ryu Ninpo, and possibly Shinden Fudo Ryu and Kukishin Ryu. Kukishin Ryu, in some of the origin stories, have mention of characters who are refered to as a "Kishu Ninja", either from Kishu Ryu, or Kishu Province). There is a very valid point of contention as to whether you class systems such as Kukishin, Gikan, or Shinden Fudo as Ninjutsu or Samurai (personally, I count them as Samurai systems), Gyokko and Koto appear to have been both at different times in their history, and Takagi is definitively Samurai. Togakure, Kumogakure, and Gyokushin are still listed as Ninjutsu ryuha, so I would say that if you aren't training these particular arts, then it's not Ninjutsu.

Probably the best indications for this distinction between ryu is the changing of the Bujinkan title from (originally) Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu, to Bujinkan Dojo, to Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, as well as the Genbukan's method of distinguishing between their ninpo curiculuum and the Samurai methods (Genbukan and Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei respectively). This shows that ninjutsu/ninpo is such because of it's history, as much as it's methodology.

So that brings us to how they were defined as such in the first place. Well, who used them and how were they used? Were they used by Samurai, acting under their lord, or as ronin, or were they used by mountain groups, not under the direction of a lord, basing their skills in the defence of themselves and their homes? This should hopefully help explain why there can be no "new" ninjutsu, as there are no ninja (in the original sense) anymore. However, there are ninjutsu practitioners, but that is different.

Oh, and I like the Shakespeare quote, but it's a little out of context. The full quote is something like....

"Romeo, O Romeo, wherefore art thou Romeo?
Deny thy father and refuse thy name
O What's in a name?
That which we call a rose by any other name
Would smell as sweet."

The context, therefore, is that Juliet is arguing that the name, although just a word, gives the popular perception of the thing. She then imagines a way to get around this problem, but is really just a fanciful, harmless attempt to get away from the reality as presented to her. Oh, well, she is just (nearly) 14, after all.

 

[Cryozombie]

Well, more than anything, the use and original practitioners define a (Japanese) system in this sense. In that regard, I am with Cryo, I just don't quite limit it to Togakure.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not limiting it to Togakure-ryu either... I cited that as my example because it's where I have the most experience with actual "Ninjutsu" techniques.

To me, a rose by any other name still smells as sweet.

Ha, Chris beat me to it, I was going to explain how this quote actually meant that calling a thing somthing it isn't doesn't change what it actually is to what you called it...

 

[Chris Parker]

Cool. Yeah, it doesn't help that Kumogakure and Gyokushin have really not been taught much... but one day, hopefully! That does leave Gyokko and Koto, but as I said, thta comes down to personal interpretation.

 

[Cryozombie]

Cool. Yeah, it doesn't help that Kumogakure and Gyokushin have really not been taught much... but one day, hopefully! That does leave Gyokko and Koto, but as I said, thta comes down to personal interpretation.

Yeah, Me porsonally, I've always seen Koto's focus as breaking the bodys structure/position, and gyokko as focusing on Koshijutsu... not so much what I would consider Ninjutsu, but then again, thats just me and where I have been at with them...