Question about joining a dojo

[HeisaaReborn]

Okay, this is an old thread, I know, but...

As you are making a point about the correct way of presenting certain words (ryu, in this case), we might as well get a couple of things straight. The term for full trasmission, or msatership is Menkyo Kaiden, not "meiko" or "meikogeiden" as you commonly use. Not even sure if that is a word at all... And I have never encountered such a term as sokeship menkyo, as soke is generally considered to be above the menkyo ranking system. However, as menkyo simply means licence, you could look at the scrolls as being such, maybe?

The techniques of a particular ryu are known as kata, which becomes gata when placed after certain phonetic sounds, I believe you are writing "gate" and "gates" in this place? I would also point out that Japanese doesn't feature pluralisation the way English does, so it is one kata, or many kata, not katas (or, as you wrote, "gates").

As for capitalisation of terms, you stated that ryu "should always be capitalised, for respect", gotta disagree here. When used as a proper name, in a part of a school, then yes, by all means, capitalise it (eg. Togakure Ryu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Katori Shinto Ryu). But when used, as it was, simply as a word, then no. By the same token, we use the word school without capitalising ("Did you have a good day at school today?"), but when naming a school, that changes ("Where do you study?" "I go to Such-and-such High school"). Make sense?

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "Yes this is one of the arts that Hatsumi Sensei teaches which he holds the sokeship menkyo for. However Hatsumi Sensei only holds the menkyo kaiden for one of 9 Ryus..." Hatsumi Sensei is Soke of 9 separate systems, which he chooses to teach as an amalgamated system based on the teachings of each different ryu-ha, while focussing on one in particular from time to time. And while I'm on this part, the correct title is not Hatsumisensei, as it is not an extension of his name, but Hatsumi Sensei (2 seperate words). And I'm not sure where you get your information about what Hatsumi teaches "only his senior students", nor why you would feel it is "sad" that not all students of the Bujinkan (might be a typo, but I've seen it in a few of your posts - BujiNkan, not Bujikan) know all the kata. There are many schools which are so large that the students don't know all the techniques for them, either, in fact, in many classical systems, you may not learn the actual scroll techniques until quite a way down the path.

I will say that I have quite a few typos and spelling mistakes up front - my spelling has always been horrible. My point is that I feel that particular system has become too large that it has become to the point where not all schools are able to teach from the scrolls. The fact that you don't know what the "gates" are - and yes I am using plural shows this. This is not the fault of Hatsumi Sensei he only did the same thing that Jigoro Kano did in his own art. When Ninja arts were illegalized he taught what he could publicly under the name of BujiNkan and then taught the rest to a small group of students he could trust. These are well documented facts in history. You also have other Ryus that stayed silent and chose to train in the shadows. My point is it is a very universal art that covers all spectrums from the most public to most private. An understanding of the "gates" was how I was taught distinguish one type of practicioner from another. Please do not get me wrong, I mean no disrespect towards BujiNkan or Hatsumi Sensei I am just saying that is not the only option for Ninjutsu training.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

As of this time they are the only lineage with a proven link to Japan. (Bujinkan or any of the X-Kans) That is until some thing else comes along and it can be traced. Not out of the realm of possibility but no one has come forth with it that is teaching and or claiming to teach a Japanese system of authentic Ninjutsu. Anyone who does not provide lineage is going to be questioned and that is just the way it is.

By the way the ninja arts were never made illegal to teach.

Heisaa,

Many people are finding difficulties with your Japanese as you have said the spelling leads a lot to be desired. To be taken seriously that would need to be corrected.

 

[Chris Parker]

I will say that I have quite a few typos and spelling mistakes up front - my spelling has always been horrible. My point is that I feel that particular system has become too large that it has become to the point where not all schools are able to teach from the scrolls. The fact that you don't know what the "gates" are - and yes I am using plural shows this. This is not the fault of Hatsumi Sensei he only did the same thing that Jigoro Kano did in his own art. When Ninja arts were illegalized he taught what he could publicly under the name of BujiNkan and then taught the rest to a small group of students he could trust. These are well documented facts in history. You also have other Ryus that stayed silent and chose to train in the shadows. My point is it is a very universal art that covers all spectrums from the most public to most private. An understanding of the "gates" was how I was taught distinguish one type of practicioner from another. Please do not get me wrong, I mean no disrespect towards BujiNkan or Hatsumi Sensei I am just saying that is not the only option for Ninjutsu training.

Okay, then maybe you can help us out with a couple of things...

By "that particular system has become too large that it has become to the point where not all schools are able to teach from the scrolls", are you refering to the Bujinkan organisation being too large for the instructors to know the Densho material? That is a little hard to follow for me, so do you mean that, or something else?

"The fact that you don't know what the "gates" are - and yes I am using plural shows this". If you aren't actually refering to kata, what are you meaning by "gates"? This is not a term I have come across in Ninjutsu, Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan, off-shoot organisations, Koryu systems, nor indeed any Japanese martial art at all. So if you could enlighten us, that would be appreciated.

"This is not the fault of Hatsumi Sensei he only did the same thing that Jigoro Kano did in his own art", yeah, not sure what you're talking about here... What are you saying Kano Sensei did? And what is Hatsumi Sensei meant to have copied from him? The only thing I can think of is Kano Sensei developing the Kyu/Dan coloured belt ranking system, and Hatsumi Sensei being the first to introduce a similar ranking system into Ninjutsu.

"When Ninja arts were illegalized he taught what he could publicly under the name of BujiNkan and then taught the rest to a small group of students he could trust. These are well documented facts in history. You also have other Ryus that stayed silent and chose to train in the shadows" Where exactly are you getting this from? The Togakure Ryu, arguably the most "ninja" of all the systems Hatsumi Sensei inherrited, was even used as the umbrella title for what would later become refered to as the Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. And, as Brian said, the arts were not illegal to be taught, and certainly never during the time Hatsumi has possessed them. So the Ninjutsu aspect of his teachings has taken centre stage from the beginning, not exactly "staying silent" on these "illegal arts".

"My point is it is a very universal art that covers all spectrums from the most public to most private. An understanding of the "gates" was how I was taught distinguish one type of practicioner from another" Again, not sure what you're trying to say here either. This seems to be a very general statement that can be shaped to suit anything you might say, without saying anything at all. And what exactly do you mean by "gates", if not kata?

"Please do not get me wrong, I mean no disrespect towards BujiNkan or Hatsumi Sensei I am just saying that is not the only option for Ninjutsu training". No offence taken (after all, I'm not Bujinkan myself...), but the only verifiable Ninjutsu left in the world are the arts left ot Hatsumi Sensei by Takamatsu Sensei, which are currently taught in the Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan, and various off-shoot schools. There are no others, or at least no others that have come out, even with many, many very well connected and dedicated people researching for them for years. And, yes, they really did want to find them. They just aren't there anymore.

 

[HeisaaReborn]

Okay, then maybe you can help us out with a couple of things...

By "that particular system has become too large that it has become to the point where not all schools are able to teach from the scrolls", are you refering to the Bujinkan organisation being too large for the instructors to know the Densho material? That is a little hard to follow for me, so do you mean that, or something else?

"The fact that you don't know what the "gates" are - and yes I am using plural shows this". If you aren't actually refering to kata, what are you meaning by "gates"? This is not a term I have come across in Ninjutsu, Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan, off-shoot organisations, Koryu systems, nor indeed any Japanese martial art at all. So if you could enlighten us, that would be appreciated.

"This is not the fault of Hatsumi Sensei he only did the same thing that Jigoro Kano did in his own art", yeah, not sure what you're talking about here... What are you saying Kano Sensei did? And what is Hatsumi Sensei meant to have copied from him? The only thing I can think of is Kano Sensei developing the Kyu/Dan coloured belt ranking system, and Hatsumi Sensei being the first to introduce a similar ranking system into Ninjutsu.

"When Ninja arts were illegalized he taught what he could publicly under the name of BujiNkan and then taught the rest to a small group of students he could trust. These are well documented facts in history. You also have other Ryus that stayed silent and chose to train in the shadows" Where exactly are you getting this from? The Togakure Ryu, arguably the most "ninja" of all the systems Hatsumi Sensei inherrited, was even used as the umbrella title for what would later become refered to as the Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. And, as Brian said, the arts were not illegal to be taught, and certainly never during the time Hatsumi has possessed them. So the Ninjutsu aspect of his teachings has taken centre stage from the beginning, not exactly "staying silent" on these "illegal arts".

"My point is it is a very universal art that covers all spectrums from the most public to most private. An understanding of the "gates" was how I was taught distinguish one type of practicioner from another" Again, not sure what you're trying to say here either. This seems to be a very general statement that can be shaped to suit anything you might say, without saying anything at all. And what exactly do you mean by "gates", if not kata?

"Please do not get me wrong, I mean no disrespect towards BujiNkan or Hatsumi Sensei I am just saying that is not the only option for Ninjutsu training". No offence taken (after all, I'm not Bujinkan myself...), but the only verifiable Ninjutsu left in the world are the arts left ot Hatsumi Sensei by Takamatsu Sensei, which are currently taught in the Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan, and various off-shoot schools. There are no others, or at least no others that have come out, even with many, many very well connected and dedicated people researching for them for years. And, yes, they really did want to find them. They just aren't there anymore.

I am referring to the eight gates that are your primary Shinobi skills:

Ninja no Taijutsu - techniques of unarmed combat and Shizen (natural) body movement.
Shinobi Iri - Silent movement and silent entrance skills
Ninja no Kiai - the warrior spirit and energy you hold inside thru shizen expression
Ninja no Soojutsu - Spear and Staff techniques. (Also covers multiple attackers).
Ninja no Kenpo - Sword techniques. Ken = blade & Po = Law. "Law of the Blade"
Ninja no Shurikenjutsu - Throwing blades. There are 3 throwing techniques.
Ninja no Kajutsu - utilizing fire. The art/way of Fire weapons.
Ninja no Ugei - The art of Deception and Disguise

Maybe they just have never been broken down and presented in this way. I honestly think it is a rough statement to make the Hatsumi Sensei is the only living student of Takamatsu Sensei is very shortsighted and close minded. Yes, lineages can be traced it is just a matter of whether or not we choose to be that public. In the OPINION of SOME (I am not saying you or making any statements of right or wrong here) this was never an art that was meant to be public. Publicly if you do research you will find there is one young lady here in the US who does hold the densho for one of the 9 Ryus - just throwing this in as a point of fact. This is a whole seperate legitimate organization from Bujinkan (is that N really capitalized one person said it was one said it wasn't I am not part of this organization so I do not know) and this organization was created in order to give credibility to those Ryus that did not wish to be public. And yes the Anshu in question also holds rank in Bujinkan.

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, we're starting to make some sense here. Let's take this part by part again.

The "eight gates" you are refering to are not anything I have seen in any legitimate group, but seem to be a portion of what is known as the Ninja Juhakkei (Eighteen Skills of the Ninja), reformed as a type of Happo Biken. Can you please give us a reference so we can see where this has come from and verify the authenticity?

"I honestly think it is a rough statement to make the Hatsumi Sensei is the only living student of Takamatsu Sensei is very shortsighted and close minded". I don't think anyone has stated that Hatsumi is the only student of Takamatsu left, just that he was the student that Takamatsu Sensei awarded Hatsumi and Hatsumi alone the Sokeship of the Ryuha in question. There are a number of other students, such as Akimoto Sensei, who was awarded the Gikan Ryu but unfortunately died early with the Gikan Ryu reverting to Takamatsu Sensei, Kimura Sensei, Sato Sensei, and a number of others. But they all acknowledged Hatsumi as the successor, with most going on to teach their interpretations of the arts they had been taught themselves.

"Publicly if you do research you will find there is one young lady here in the US who does hold the densho for one of the 9 Ryus - just throwing this in as a point of fact. This is a whole seperate legitimate organization from Bujinkan (is that N really capitalized one person said it was one said it wasn't I am not part of this organization so I do not know) and this organization was created in order to give credibility to those Ryus that did not wish to be public. And yes the Anshu in question also holds rank in Bujinkan". Here we go. The only person I can think of that you are refering to is Christa Jacobson. She and Hayes are the only people I can think of in the US who use the term Anshu, am I right? Christa has quite a history, and by bringing her into this, you are not really helping your credibility. Sorry.

Oh, and I capitalised the "N" in Bujinkan simply to show the fact that you seemed to almost universally miss that particular letter when you wrote the name Bujinkan. That was all. It is not usually capitalised.

 

[HeisaaReborn]

I am of kyu rank, I don't know what your ranking is but I have seen nothing of Anshu Jacobsen to question her credibility. I also know that she has been supported by Anshu Hayes. I guess that would go back to that whole lineage thing. I know that there are those that have certain beliefs but I do not share those beliefs. If that is going to make my credibility questionable than so be it I wish you peace. BTW- I am not of her school, but I am familiar with her.

 

[Chris Parker]

Christa Jacobson has been a member of the Bujinkan a while ago, but has since changed direction quite considerably. I'm not going into detail here, butif she was supported by Hayes, that would be along time ago, and I sincerely doubt it would be currently so.

That said, do you have an answer for the rest of my questions? Most especially, do you have a source we can check out for ourselves on the things you have stated? You seem to be saying that the research (information) is quite easy to find, but it all seems new to us, and we have been at this, in some cases for nearly 3 decades. Can't bear to think that there's something we've missed, maybe you could help out?

 

[Tsuki-Yomi]

I'm only a Shodan in the Bujinkan, but I have never heard the gate term used either.

 

[Bujingodai]

Jacobson Anshu is a Yondan under Dan Buckley, who is no longer with the Bujinkan. To my knowledge Dan now runs Bansenshukai Ninjutsu, which actually from the vids I have seen, he is a pretty skilled guy.

I may have an opppotunity to meet Jacobson at the upcoming Jinichi Kawakmai seminar in Jersey as she was invited. I see more the Tomo Ryu Shinobijutsu as having prominance in her art, of which I don't know anything about it.

I've trained with over 20 independent styles at various events etc, I also have not heard of the 8 gates.

I have not met Jacobson, I have shared some emails with her and get a monthly newsletter. She is very dedicated to what it is that she does, I will give her that. Very thorough and researched reads. Video, that can be very subjective. She looks skilled. I would make more a judgement when seeing and speaking with her. Just on that level of course. I am not a historian.

Chris, thanks for your posts you put it in a very clear way.

 

[Cryozombie]

What is it about these art that create so many "I'm a ninja ryu too!" groups?

Over 20 independent styles? Does this happen to other arts?

Are there 20+ independent styles of Epak?

Or 20+ independent styles of South Mantis, etc?

Or is it by and large just a bunch of Douchebags who may or may not be great artists capitalizing on "ninja" to gain notoriety and make money?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Are there 20+ independent styles of Epak?

More than that, the only common factor is Ed Parker.

 

[shesulsa]

Ladies and gentlemen, please remember to keep the conversation polite, respectful and keep to the topic of the thread please.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assist. Administrator

 

[Bujingodai]

Wow,
Cryo I have never disrespected you. A douchebag, no most of them that I have met I wouldn't call that.
Mislead maybe.

cripes I am sorry I entered to the discussion.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Wow,
Cryo I have never disrespected you. A douchebag, no most of them that I have met I wouldn't call that.
Mislead maybe.

cripes I am sorry I entered to the discussion.

Dave,

I do not think that cryozombie meant disrespect to you but instead why do people feel a need to create some thing and then place the label on it as ninjutsu. That is the crux of the issue here.

 

[Bujingodai]

I am going to be careful with what I say here in future.
The majority of people that did their own thing that I am aware of came from the Ninjutsu camp, mostly being X Kan. 90% of them didn't capatilize on the name of the art itself so they felt that was what they were doing. Or at the very least it was the closest to describing the spirit of what they were doing.
Hatsumi has the rights to the word Bujinkan and the ryu ha that is the soke of.
Ninjutsu is a word, like car. He does not own the word. So some use the word to describe their thing.

The reason to be a douchebag is not always so nefarious.
Lets also understand there are lots of "legit" practitioner that capitalize on the name as well.

I myself would love to capitalize on it, I could move it out of my basement.

It was a generalized statement. I have met far more douchebags that are taking advantage in the legit systems than the indies anyday.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Ninjutsu is a word, like car. He does not own the word. So some use the word to describe their thing.

you are right about that. The point of contention is that the word is misused.
It's like car is a perfectly good word that everybody can use. But calling a bike a car is wrong.
And if people are looking for a car, and the bike owner manages to sell them a bike by calling it a car (the customer doesn't know any better) then that makes the seller a fraud.

Now about the ryuha that was mentioned. Unless the teacher holds a menkyo kaiden in said ryu, he has no business teaching that ryuha outside of an X-kan while using that name. So if the matter of lineage is not legit, then the teacher is a fraud.

And even if the teacher holds a menkyo kaiden for said ryuha, if he starts making changes without being the soke, or wants to tear away from the soke, he has to follow certain naming conventions. For example, the Togakure Ryu that is taught in Genbukan is named Togakure Ryu Tanemura-ha

 

[Bujingodai]

Yes of course you are correct, if someone is teaching something that is not remotely attached to Ninjutsu they should call it something else.

And again correct about the name and the usage of ryu ha. I actually know few independents that teach or claim to teach and rank in the ryu ha that Hatsumi is the Soke of.

For arguements sake, Mark Grove teaches Kuroi Katori Ryu Ninjutsu. I am not arguing the validity but he is not awarding rank in say Togakure Ryu. That would be fraud. And not asking to stat a discussion of him.

Now, as part of this discussion the topic of Anshu Christa Jacobson comes up, now she has a Yondan in BBT. However I don't know if she is touting and ranking people in that specifically to my knowledge she is not. It is a part of her own resume and she ranks people in Budo Ryu, of which I know little of.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Now about the ryuha that was mentioned. Unless the teacher holds a menkyo kaiden in said ryu, he has no business teaching that ryuha outside of an X-kan while using that name.

This part of your statement I dissagree with. Menkyo Kaiden are pretty rare, but one can be given master's licences with permission to instruct.

Other than that I pretty much agree for the most part.

Now, I think if you have competant MASTER LEVEL training (regardless of whether you were given formal rank or not) in a legitimate ninjutsu system (i.e. the Takamatsu traditions) but you want to change certain things I think you could be considered a legitimate system. I personally think that any Japanese martial art that has traditional methods of stealth, espionage, and other "ninja-ish" tactics could be considered an authentic ninja art. Feel free to disagree though.

 

[Chris Parker]

Just to add to Himura's comment, Menkyo Kaiden was considered complete transmission of a system. Often when moving up through the ranks, the student would be granted permission to teach and train others up to the level below their current achievment. So at Shoden, you could teach the Kihon (Kirigami), at Chuden you could teach up to Shoden, at Okuden you can teach up to Chuden etc. depending on the particular ryu-ha syllabus.

Within the Bujinkan, it was established early on that Godan would be recognised as Shidoshi, a title that has been most often translated as "teacher of the warrior methods", but I prefer to translate as "passer of the methods/knowledge/tradition". Not exactly literal, butI like it. Anyway, the point is that Godan is not Menkyo Kaiden, but teaching is permitted at this level.

Where the Menkyo Kaiden holder differs is that they are permitted to make any alteration to their expression of the art they see fit, and can pass it on in any way they believe is best. I would say that unless someone is a Menkyo Kaiden holder, they are not permitted to licence someone in a particular ryu, but they can teach and often promote up to a certain level. With that said, some schools get very strict on only allowing promotion with the current heads' permission, and some teachers only promote with the heads' blessing as a show of deferance and respect.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Thanks for the correction.

From what I understand you are right that different teaching licenses can be issued, but I don't know if the license to teach is still valid if you leave the ryu. I know that the menkyo kaiden indicates mastership and allows you to teach the whole of it, no matter if you leave the ryu or not. would the same apply to lower menkyo in that case? (obviously not the whole system, but the part covered by the license)