Question about a technique against a tackle

[rmcrobertson]

Dear Rainman:

Thanks for the energizing discourtesy; I particularly enjoyed the, "McDojo," crack, given that I am a student at Mr. Tatum's in Pasadena--which, I believe, you know very well.

However, let me take up the issue you raised.

Some time ago, I had a brown belt show me Thrusting Prongs against a distant charge. After the thumb healed, I thought a bit about the logic of standing there until the last minute and waiting to receive a hug of some sort from a distance. it seem to me that it makes about as much sense as practicing, say, Lone Kimono with the attacker charging from ten feet away, or Twin Kimono with the dummy coming in like Frankenstein from a distance.

Could there be situations in which this might happen? Sure. Attackers, like defenders, do all sorts of dumb things. There might be situations in which you would want to jump left in response not only to a charge and attempted tackle, but to a second attacker. Can you choose to stand there and await a charge? Absolutely; I just don't think that makes a lot of sense, given that there are far easier ways to respond to somebody charging in with their head down--like stepping off-line and delivering a couple of kicks, for example.

As for your contention of, "two steps, ten feet, one second," I am afraid that I am doubtful. Do you have evidence for this contention? Not only does it seem unlikely--even Darryl Liner takes longer, as I've had occasion to discover--but you are assuming that the defender isn't doing anything during that second other than standing there and waiting for the arrival. Why do that?

I am always perfectly happy to discuss ideas. I would suggest that even you might from time to time find discussion helpful, provided that you can put aside your insistence upon personal attacks, and simply present your own ideas also. Regrettably, however, I suspect that you will find it necessary to respond with some further piece of vituperation. And, I suspect, this has ultimately far more to do with my instructor than my simple disagreement.

Please feel free to slang. I will not be responding to further bad manners, for the same reason that I would not be standing directly in front of, say, Gokor as he charges in from ten feet plus. I couldn't bear the sound of his giggling, as I threw my very best knee and hammer to small effect.

 

[pete]

robert, i agree with your assessment of the technique, the nature of the attack, regardless of where and with whom you receive instruction.

i look at the nature of the attack as having a descending force. the attacker is within striking distance, and rather than striking he decides to dive at you thighs to take you down... you, as the defender borrow force and meet his descending force with an ascending knee. if he's seriously diving, the knee will probably be wedged into his sternum and your hammer will come down on his back and you can push your right elbow into the back of his neck... if he's slower or you're quicker, the knee will be placed into his face and the hammer will strike the back or side of his head.

if the guy is coming in from a mile away, the force is more horizontal. he's probably hunched down a step or 2 before he reaches you... in this case we have an old kenpo tecchnique called Tackle Techniques,which you step back and chop out to his neck or clavicle and do some other nasty stuff, but keeping him in front of you.

if he's coming on strong and you can't keep him in front, well do the matador technique we call Charging Ram.

lotsa good stuff, no need for name calling...

"sneaky" pete

 

[Michael Billings]

Just an FYI (and yes, I did note the discourtesy), in law enforcement we count an actual second with a timer - 10 feet is only 2-3 long steps sprinting. This is done in the "Surviving a Knife Attack" scenarios and we cannot draw and clear without retreating since we KNOW you can reach at least 10' - 15' in a second to a second and a half.

That being said, regarding Intercepting the Ram: Stepping off the line, dropping your center as you throw the knee strike, the hammerfist to the back of the opponent's kidney, and subsequent elbow & hammerfist to keep the opponent's heigth in check by effectively suppressing the H & W zone, while the knee should have helped control depth and Heigth, seems very effective to me. An inserted neck break after the hammerfist, the sequential flow down and up the circle give you a great amount of power for the follow-through. I have had no problem with the hands if I really strike at least hard enough to get a reaction.

-Michael

 

[rmcrobertson]

Reasonable points, gentlemen, especially since you've checked, Michael. I do tend to agree with Pete--I guess it's because my point really boils down to saying that nobody's going to come at you with an obvious tackle from very many feet away--I suspect that, as Pete noted, they're going to start high and drop when they're close.

I also agree that the school should be irrelevant. I just resented the "McDojo," remark, made by somebody who should know better, so I stuck in the name, which I rarely do.

Anyway, thanks.

 

[Seig]

I would like to make a point about the 21' "rule". It is not universally true. At my last "Defensive Tactics" refresher class, I proved that an officer that is trained properly and that practices regularly can in fact clear and fire his weapon at least twice in that time frame. Where the real problem arises is in the momentum of the attacker, if you do not move off line from the attacker as you are firing, he may still reach you.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I would like to make a point about the 21' "rule". It is not universally true. At my last "Defensive Tactics" refresher class, I proved that an officer that is trained properly and that practices regularly can in fact clear and fire his weapon at least twice in that time frame. Where the real problem arises is in the momentum of the attacker, if you do not move off line from the attacker as you are firing, he may still reach you.

Knew a cop who got his shots off on a Samoan closing and firing at the same time. Capped the guy, but ended up underneath him till backup peeled the bad guy off.

 

[Karazenpo]

Remember, in the prearranged training environment you always know it's coming and you will always be better prepared to react quicker. So, personally, I feel no matter how many rounds one can accurately get off in training, one cannot count on the same performance in reality. You have to leave room for a 'buffer' zone. I also don't like going into a one-point balance position on a guy who's diving for my legs to take me down, it may lead you into going down much easier. If you mean a knee strike after you avert his attack, I agree, but I wouldn't intercept his attack with one. I had a guy go for my legs in an in-close situation while trying to take him in. I went into a 'wrestler's sprawl' and then manipulated him into a frontal headlock. It worked for me.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

As far as grappling and the tackle technique. Most grapplers don't start 10 feet out then shoot in. Maybe the guy off the street who has no training what so ever will do this. We usually start from about 3-4 feet or even closer to get an effective tackle.

Now to the defense of this tackle. We usually try and sprawl on the guy, while shoveling his head to the ground. A cross face neck crank can be gotten from here. If they happen to catch a leg, will shoot the leg back, which helps to drive them down. once down on the ground knees to the head and follow up hand strikes.

If they get an effective tackle on me, I will pull guard on them and try to finish them off with strikes or some kind of submission technique.

Overall to defend the tackle, one must have good balance, keep attacker from getting too close to the legs and be ready to fight from the ground if needed.

 

[hedgehogey]

Aww man. Everyone was being really amusingly candid with the one legged anti-grappling, and you two just HAD to inject a dose of reality and ruin my amusement, didn't you?

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. Always read the earlier posts, before feeling excessively superior. Several people made the specific point that a tackle is going to come from fairly close.

2. Ya might want to think through the notion that one person's dreams of perfect technique are necessarily superior to another's, simply because they invoke grappling. Or, you might want to recognize that you too are relying upon the same notions of technology that you keep decrying.

3. The point, in the end, is to develop options.

 

[Karazenpo]

As far as grappling and the tackle technique. Most grapplers don't start 10 feet out then shoot in. Maybe the guy off the street who has no training what so ever will do this. We usually start from about 3-4 feet or even closer to get an effective tackle.

Now to the defense of this tackle. We usually try and sprawl on the guy, while shoveling his head to the ground. A cross face neck crank can be gotten from here. If they happen to catch a leg, will shoot the leg back, which helps to drive them down. once down on the ground knees to the head and follow up hand strikes.

If they get an effective tackle on me, I will pull guard on them and try to finish them off with strikes or some kind of submission technique.

Overall to defend the tackle, one must have good balance, keep attacker from getting too close to the legs and be ready to fight from the ground if needed.

I completely agree with Kempojujutsu, it appears to me he's 'been there, done that'!

 

[Karazenpo]

Aww man. Everyone was being really amusingly candid with the one legged anti-grappling, and you two just HAD to inject a dose of reality and ruin my amusement, didn't you?

Good point when you say 'reality'. Theories and concepts can be interesting but there's nothing like reality fighting to know what is applicable in the real world vs. the dojo.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

1. Always read the earlier posts, before feeling excessively superior. Several people made the specific point that a tackle is going to come from fairly close.

2. Ya might want to think through the notion that one person's dreams of perfect technique are necessarily superior to another's, simply because they invoke grappling. Or, you might want to recognize that you too are relying upon the same notions of technology that you keep decrying.

3. The point, in the end, is to develop options.

artyon: artyon:

Not sure if your points are directed at me. But where did I post that my techniques were superior or perfect to anyone elses? I just listed what I would do in that situation. I do agree with you on the distance of the tackle being done. That was the only thing that I repeted in this post. Can I have a say so in the matter? Or is this just your thread to post in? I will be glad to leave and not give any more input.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Perhaps if you read the post immediately before my last, to which I responded...

However, if you insist upon jamming the glove on your hand, I will say that it seems to me that every time these arguments begin, the, "grappling," contingent insists upon technique in a fashion that is exactly the same as the fashion of the, "stand-up," guys they are attacking. They simply prefer rasslin', and different techniques.

I'd have thought you'd want the common ground that the mention of, "options," afforded....

 

[Andrew Green]

Based on a untrained person trying to tackle with the intent of wrapping there arms around you, you should have no trouble getting double underhooks, adda partial sprawl and you are now on your feet and ready to start unloading those knees.

But keep both feet on the ground until you stop his forward momentum if you want to have any feet left on the ground afterwards...

 

[Karazenpo]

Based on a untrained person trying to tackle with the intent of wrapping there arms around you, you should have no trouble getting double underhooks, adda partial sprawl and you are now on your feet and ready to start unloading those knees.

But keep both feet on the ground until you stop his forward momentum if you want to have any feet left on the ground afterwards...

Another one who has obviously 'been there, done that'. Andrew, I couldn't have said it any better!

 

[marshallbd]

Another one who has obviously 'been there, done that'. Andrew, I couldn't have said it any better!

Joe,
I was up your way last month and was planning on dropping in to say hello but ran into some difficulty and could not make it. Sorry I missed the cup of joe with joe! I am going to head that way again next summer and I'll give it a second try then.
Beau

 

[Karazenpo]

Joe,
I was up your way last month and was planning on dropping in to say hello but ran into some difficulty and could not make it. Sorry I missed the cup of joe with joe! I am going to head that way again next summer and I'll give it a second try then.
Beau

Hey Beau, sorry we missed each other, next summer it is! "Joe"

 

[GAB]

Hi,
The idea to shoot some one as they come in to tackle is...well, and then you have the running tackle scenerio, and the close in, putting their arms around you, and then you have 140 pound person against a 240 person, it depends which is which. :idunno:

It's pretty hard to discuss, unless we are talking apples and apples and no other item like an orange or a lemon.

If the person has a weapon, what kind of a weapon, are you authorized to
take a life or does the situation determine the right to take a life? Or just defending your self.

Which state do you live in? What are the "Rules or Laws" in allowing to taking a life or great bodily harm?? What country are you in?

I think the word, "option" is probably the best in regard to any situation, also each situation must be decided on the particulars. Opinion is another way to put it when discussing these hypothetical situations.

If you have only been taught the, right cross, then you are in trouble.

In the school of thought I will address this with, is, we have the 3foot, 6foot, and 12 foot, situation.
Many situations for each distance and many ideas for each situation.

So we have a thought that is, conceptualization, taking everything and putting it in the brain and with the amount of training and the degree of expertise will determine the response. Processing the input then coming up with a tactic. :whip:

Training has a lot to with what you will do, also policies if you have them (some Dept you work for) or just a rough and tumble.

Yes options is the key, and one of them is how long do you train?

How many schools teach a two month basic or a three month, then go on from there?

Then there is the carrot with the stick attitude, yep, options and training.

Last but not least.
I was working out with an LEO yesterday, we talked about different systems Aikido, Kaju etc. He said he used to take Kajukenbo, but stopped because it was not within his Dept. policy. To brutal. :idunno:

So see we have another thought to contend with, which form of training are you going to have to take, if you are under the thump, sort of.

Regards, Gary :asian:

 

[BlackCatBonz]

getting out of the way of speeding cars is a surefire way of not getting hit by them

shawn