Quarantining Dissent

[loki09789]

And yes ... Paul ... there is a bit of 'Tone' in this message. Because, it seems as if you have left the ability to reason somewhere else this morning. Is there anything this administration can do that would cause you to say .. 'gee that's wrong' .... Maybe a hummer in the oval office?

Yup, just the same way that past administrations have done things that I could say "that was wrong" too. But to attack basic security procedures is digging as far as I am concerned. The POTUS does not come up with these Standard Operating Procedures, security specialists develop them and supervisors approve of them. After training in PSD/Executive Security and such first hand (never had to do the job, but was oriented on it), the principle - in this case the POTUS - can chaif all he wants, but the security team dictates security. They don't have to like it, but they do have to adhere to it. Stories in Secret Service circles are rampant of the Clintons absolutely HATING secret service presense - Hillary is reputed to have told a secret service agent who moved in front of her to open a door to "get the 'F*&K' out of" her way. She didn't like it but they were a required frustration.

The biggest failing I can see in the current adminstration is to clearly demonstrate a lack of interest in humanitarian support/policies/incentives foreign and domestic. In true old school Republican form, money is the answer to everything. School voucher systems as an educational incentive, give a cash back tax incentive (ohhh! $500 dollars, that solves the social services/support problem), supporting business and the middle american eco strata (because they are statistically the strongest voting population, win/lose sway demographic). Yes the war on terrorism is important, yes the war in Iraq needs to be resolved quickly - and was spun to be linked to the Afg. campaign, but information and discussion of domestic reforms - if any - other than Patriot Act stuff would be nice.

Converesly, prior adminstrations have been guilty of putting too much incentive/faith in building the domestic at the expense of foriegn diplomacy/security - consequences 9/11 and a lack of Mid East intelligence networks. Complain... complain...complain... what can we do about it other than vote, run for office, exercise lawful protest.

Criticising Secret Service for enforcing/implimenting security policies is like attacking troops for fighting the war.

 

[MisterMike]

Hall, who has difficulty walking, said she had already complied with two requests from police to move when officers asked her to move again. She said they did not give her a good reason.

Well, um, that's just tough titty. I don't see why people come crying every time some idgit refuses to follow orders, rules, regulations, laws, and all that other fluff that society puts in place. Gosh life would just be so much easier.

Oh, what was it that the pro-life sign holders were doing wrong? Seemingly nothing since no major news corp decided to cover it.

And why can't these Bush protesters at least put something of substance on their signs, like "No Defense" or "Tax Us More" or "Buy me medicine" rather than "Bush is bad for America."

 

[loki09789]

Well, um, that's just tough titty. I don't see why people come crying every time some idgit refuses to follow orders, rules, regulations, laws, and all that other fluff that society puts in place. Gosh life would just be so much easier.

Oh, what was it that the pro-life sign holders were doing wrong? Seemingly nothing since no major news corp decided to cover it.

And why can't these Bush protesters at least put something of substance on their signs, like "No Defense" or "Tax Us More" or "Buy me medicine" rather than "Bush is bad for America."

Amen, MM, this harkens to TGACE's comment about tone: bash the power as opposed to reform/improve the status quo.

 

[michaeledward]

And why can't these Bush protesters at least put something of substance on their signs, like "No Defense" or "Tax Us More" or "Buy me medicine" rather than "Bush is bad for America."

Could it be that thoughtful loyal opposition can't reduce comments to four words, like 'My Abortion Hurt Me' (which I point out, the person stating this at least had the legal right to that procedure - how much more might it hurt, if an abortion had to be performed with the threat of prosecution?).

It's kind of difficult to put on a sign ...

" Mr. President, you told us that we needed to invade Iraq in order to prevent Iraqi terrorists from striking at the United States with a Nuclular weapon (smoking gun in the form of a mushroom cloud). We have had soldiers looking in that country now for more than 8 months, we have assembled many of the high-ranking Iraqi officials for questioning, we have offered them money to assist us, and yet there seem to be no weapons of mass destruction. Can you explain to me, Mr. President, why our soldiers are being killed and wounded for something you call 'Weapons of Mass Destruction Related Program Activities'?

Mister President ... what exactly is a Weapons of Mass Destruction Related Program Activity? .... Is that, like a drawing, on a piece of scrap paper, as to what an atomic weapon might look like when attached to a missle?"

Or

" Mr. President, Did you know, as the Republican leaders of the House of Representatives were twisting arms, and holding the roll call vote open for 12 times longer than allowed by the house rules in order to coerce a YEA vote on your Medicare Perscription Drug plan, that this plan was going to INCREASE the size of government, and that your numbers were incorrect by more than 100 billion dollars? Did you know you were lying about that too?"


mike

 

[loki09789]

Could it be that thoughtful loyal opposition can't reduce comments to four words, like 'My Abortion Hurt Me' (which I point out, the person stating this at least had the legal right to that procedure - how much more might it hurt, if an abortion had to be performed with the threat of prosecution?).

It's kind of difficult to put on a sign ...

" Mr. President, you told us that we needed to invade Iraq in order to prevent Iraqi terrorists from striking at the United States with a Nuclular weapon (smoking gun in the form of a mushroom cloud). We have had soldiers looking in that country now for more than 8 months, we have assembled many of the high-ranking Iraqi officials for questioning, we have offered them money to assist us, and yet there seem to be no weapons of mass destruction. Can you explain to me, Mr. President, why our soldiers are being killed and wounded for something you call 'Weapons of Mass Destruction Related Program Activities'?

Mister President ... what exactly is a Weapons of Mass Destruction Related Program Activity? .... Is that, like a drawing, on a piece of scrap paper, as to what an atomic weapon might look like when attached to a missle?"

Or

" Mr. President, Did you know, as the Republican leaders of the House of Representatives were twisting arms, and holding the roll call vote open for 12 times longer than allowed by the house rules in order to coerce a YEA vote on your Medicare Perscription Drug plan, that this plan was going to INCREASE the size of government, and that your numbers were incorrect by more than 100 billion dollars? Did you know you were lying about that too?"


mike

MM's examples got the point across clearly to me - and were far shorter than yours. Three words or one hundred, isn't it ironic that the same little old granny who is carrying a sign with 'Bush is Bad for America' on it will tell her grandchildren that it is wrong to use character attacks like 'you stink' when they are fighting amongst themselves? As parents, we are advised to say that what you are doing is bad, not that you are bad.... wouldn't that be the same point that MM is making. Fix the problem, not the blame? Same tactic, different scale.

If we are critical of the character and faults of our officials, but are guilty of the same faults in our forms of protest, how much better will we be when said group get into power....same faults different goals.

I am looking at this story from the perspective of security and procedure, and I see protection as the primary motivation - based on the info in the article. Notice no interview or sound bytes from a Secret Service or gov press rep is in the article. If you are looking for incidents of opression, everything will look like it.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Can somebody tell me why spend is better than tax and spend. I'm just a dumb hick up here in Spokane Falls. It just seems that reducing the quality of living for your children, in the future, is more sinster than balacing the budget when you can.
Sean

 

[rmcrobertson]

Security, my ***. And if you guys can't recognize a deliberate, overt, decided-from-the-top attack on civil liberties when one runs up and smacks you in the face with a wheelchair, y'all need to go back and read a little.

I particularly liked the hilarious assertion--thank you, Michael Savage--that this was All OK Because They Use Grannies To Carry Bombs All The Time. Have you lost your mind?

Still, congrats on finding the same excuses that these clowns have been using since the days of the Tsars and their worthy successors, the NKVD. And how ARE you doing with the collected works of Lavrenti Beria?

If you go back and look at the LA convention in 2000 when the Republicans--and it was the Republicans--started this nonsense, it was explicitly done to keep certain viewpoints swept out of the TV coverage.

Aren't you guys the crowd that gets yer back all up whenever anybody restricts gun rights? What's the deal--guns si, speech nyet?

It just astonishes me. Apparently some of you think that free speech and dissent mean that everybody has a right to agree with you. Apparently, some of you cannot tell the difference between personal attack (ad hominem arguments...look it up) and discussion, heated or otherwise, of ideas.

Take a gander at the recent Clark thing on Bush, Clinton, and what they laughably call, "our security." I see everybody's pissed at Clark...as they should be, since he's got 'em...but Clinton's arguing the issues and facts, while Bush's henchies, like Rice, are attacking the man personally. And yes, there's a difference between some idiot getting stupid at a Kerry rally and attacking a protester who has every right to be there, and the Bush people deliberately going after any and all protest, with the aid of cops and the Secret Service.

You might wonder why it is that Kerry keeps getting confronted by Bush supporters at his rallies, and Bush never seems to have to answer indignant questions from some disgruntled Democrat. Too damn bad if they're embarassed...both SHOULD be embarassed...but could it be that the two campaigns have different policies about dealing with opposition?

Shame on you for attacking the right of Americans to peaceably assemble and protest policies with which they profoundly disagree. I guess that's one of those liberal thingies we should abolish...

Thanks, though. Nothing is funnier than reading the intellectual/political contortions of people who are trying to justify having the cops haul off an 84-year-old woman in a wheelchair because she's holding a protest sign. Especially when they've previously been arguing that Liberals Are Going To Take Over the Country and Crush Our Liberties.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Oh, and while we're putting the Real deal on signs, how 'bout:

THANKS FOR TAXING US LESS AT A FEDERAL LEVEL IN THE WAKE OF REAGAN'S "NEW FEDERALISM," WHICH HAS LEFT THE COUNTRY WITH FEWER AND FEWER SERVICES, FEWER COPS AND FIREMEN, MORE CLOSED LIBRARIES AND ART PROGRAMS, FEWER TEACHERS AND DOCTORS, FEWER STUDENTS, WHILE SIMULTANEOULSLY JACKING UP ALL SORTS OF COSTS LIKE "FOREST ADVENTURE," PASSES SO NOW WE HAVE TO PAY FOR WHAT OUR TAX DOLLARS USED TO COVER. THANKS FOR JACKING UP OUR LOCAL TAXEES AND FEES BEYOND BELIEF SO WE CAN HAVE FRILLS LIKE SEWERS AND FIRE HYDRANTS. THANKS, TOO, FOR CUTTING REGULATORY AGENCIES SO WE PAY MORE FOR POWER, WATER, MEDICINES AND EVERY OTHER FRICKIN' THING, AND YOU AND YOUR BUDDIES GROW WEALTHIER. THANKS FOR 'TORT REFORM,' WHICH MADE IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR ME TO SUE AFTER ONE OF YOUR CRONIES' COMPANIES SOLD POORLY-TESTED DRUGS TO MY SISTER AND HER ELDEST DAUGHTER DIED. THANKS FOR CLEVERLY SHIFTING BLAME ONTO SO-CALLED 'LIBERALS,' WHILE MAKING IT HARDER TO GET ACCESS TO EDUCATION SO PEOPLE COULD FIGURE THINGS OUT. OH YEAH, AND THANKS FOR THE UNNECESSARY AND UNDECLARED WAR, WHICH WILL LEAVE THE MID-EAST IN WORSE SHAPE OVER TIME, BUT WHICH WE WON'T CARE ABOUT BECAUSE WE'LL BE GONE. AND PPS, MY GRANDDAUGHTER THANKS YOU FOR STICKING HER WITH THE BILLS FOR TOYS LIKE THE B-2 AT TWO BIL A COPY, AS WELL AS THE COMPLETE COLLAPSE OF THE SOCIAL SECURITY AND MEDICARE SYSTEMS THAT YOU GUTTED SO YOU AND YOUR CRONIES IN THE SUCCESSORS TO TYCO AND ENRON AND BECHTEL COULD MAKE A FEW GOOD BUCKS. HER DAUGHTER THANKS YOU, TOO, FOR THE ATTITUDE OF TOTAL CYNICISM ABOUT POLITICS AND PATRIOTISM, AFTER YOU TURNED SUCH HONORABLE IDEAS INTO OBVIOUS CHEAP COVERS FOR YOUR OWN GREED AND STUPIDITY.

Which 84-year-old's gonna carry that one? Jack LaLane?

 

[MisterMike]

Oh brother. Thank goodness less and less people are buying that crap, and it didn't take them "8 yeas o' grad' skool" ta figure it out.

 

[loki09789]

Security, my ***. And if you guys can't recognize a deliberate, overt, decided-from-the-top attack on civil liberties when one runs up and smacks you in the face with a wheelchair, y'all need to go back and read a little.

I particularly liked the hilarious assertion--thank you, Michael Savage--that this was All OK Because They Use Grannies To Carry Bombs All The Time. Have you lost your mind?

Still, congrats on finding the same excuses that these clowns have been using since the days of the Tsars and their worthy successors, the NKVD. And how ARE you doing with the collected works of Lavrenti Beria?

If you go back and look at the LA convention in 2000 when the Republicans--and it was the Republicans--started this nonsense, it was explicitly done to keep certain viewpoints swept out of the TV coverage.

Aren't you guys the crowd that gets yer back all up whenever anybody restricts gun rights? What's the deal--guns si, speech nyet?

It just astonishes me. Apparently some of you think that free speech and dissent mean that everybody has a right to agree with you. Apparently, some of you cannot tell the difference between personal attack (ad hominem arguments...look it up) and discussion, heated or otherwise, of ideas.

Take a gander at the recent Clark thing on Bush, Clinton, and what they laughably call, "our security." I see everybody's pissed at Clark...as they should be, since he's got 'em...but Clinton's arguing the issues and facts, while Bush's henchies, like Rice, are attacking the man personally. And yes, there's a difference between some idiot getting stupid at a Kerry rally and attacking a protester who has every right to be there, and the Bush people deliberately going after any and all protest, with the aid of cops and the Secret Service.

You might wonder why it is that Kerry keeps getting confronted by Bush supporters at his rallies, and Bush never seems to have to answer indignant questions from some disgruntled Democrat. Too damn bad if they're embarassed...both SHOULD be embarassed...but could it be that the two campaigns have different policies about dealing with opposition?

Shame on you for attacking the right of Americans to peaceably assemble and protest policies with which they profoundly disagree. I guess that's one of those liberal thingies we should abolish...

Thanks, though. Nothing is funnier than reading the intellectual/political contortions of people who are trying to justify having the cops haul off an 84-year-old woman in a wheelchair because she's holding a protest sign. Especially when they've previously been arguing that Liberals Are Going To Take Over the Country and Crush Our Liberties.

Never said had to agree with me, and I would think that waving guns within effective range of the POTUS or Kerry or who ever Secret Service is appointed to protect, would be part of the criteria for 'moving them out of range' as well.... I happen to remember a protester who got right on stage with the POTUS during a speech years back (don't remember the POTUS right now, because I was looking at it from a martial/security view, first.)

Again, how many people here, whining about civil liberties and such have ever had to do/been trained in executive protection/personnel security? What measures would you take to ensure the protection of your children. Similiar mentallity with different dangers. Never said that it happens all the time, but gee whiz didn't really consider a commercial jet as a flying gas bomb either did we?

You are looking at it from ONE perspective of reasoning - the infringement of amendment rights. Okay, I can see it from that perspective, but if that is the case, write a press release, get the news to cover an event you are having and GO FOR IT! No one is telling these people that they can't EVER present their issues, just not within a threat distance to 'my principle'.

I am presenting it from another perspective - security. That means that you research/study the assasination/terrorist trends in the world, the capabilities of theoretical attacks and implementations of tactics and strategies that minimize the threat to the principle. I am discussing this single incident, not a 'conspiracy of silencing' a groups right to protest. Any outside details are an attempt to put a security consideration perspective on my point of view on this incident.

Disagreement yes, not claiming that you HAVE to agree with me. How hillarious is it to consider to think that an attack on your principle can be disguised as anything/anyone in a world where suicide bombers pose for pictures with their children infront of flags like team shots for youth sports, bombs have been used to disrupt Olympic events, ....

Before the paranoia fingers start pointing at me, remember that this same 'lyfestyle' of martial arts/self defense we claim to live has been criticized and I/we have been accused of living in fear, when I don't really feel afraid BECAUSE I have trained to develop confidence in my ability to be calm/adaptive and appropriate under pressure. Distance control in sparring/street pre-contact scenarios is standard for us when we percieve a threat. Why should it be any different for a team of professionals who make it their job to keep a principle alive?

 

[michaeledward]

MM's examples got the point across clearly to me - and were far shorter than yours.

But the point, as expressed in three words is not accurate ... and probably not even truthful. Which is what I think I said.

Again, how many people here, whining about civil liberties and such have ever had to do/been trained in executive protection/personnel security?

So only those who have been trained in executive protection are eligable for civil rights ... Got It!

What measures would you take to ensure the protection of your children.

No measures available can provide total protection. With liberties come risks, I understand this.

No one is telling these people that they can't EVER present their issues, just not within a threat distance to 'my principle'.

You can not practice the first amendment right of Freedom of Speech if there is no one around to hear you.


Mike

 

[rmcrobertson]

Dear Mike:

Once again, I apologize for having read books. I apologize, too, for knowing what I'm talking about, and for presenting a, "liberal," argument that favored neither political party and militated for free speech for everybody.

Sincerely,
Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, AKA John Kerry.

Dear "loki:"

And also my apologies. I should've realized that all those right-wing NRA types, abortion protesters, states'-rights guys, paramilitary Christians, and others whose signs we see so frequently around Hizzoner would never, never, never pose any sort of physical threat. It really IS just necessary to watch out for the elderly in wheelchairs.

Sincerely,
A Concerned Citizen
Waco, Texas

 

[loki09789]

So only those who have been trained in executive protection are eligable for civil rights ... Got It!

You can not practice the first amendment right of Freedom of Speech if there is no one around to hear you.

Mike

Not the point, only that to really appreciate the possible motives/intentions other than Quarantine of Dissent, like security, some experience in another perspective is helpful.

And there are a lot of other options other than waving a poster in front of the POTUS to get attention/voice your opinions.

 

[loki09789]

Dear Mike:
Dear "loki:"

And also my apologies. I should've realized that all those right-wing NRA types, abortion protesters, states'-rights guys, paramilitary Christians, and others whose signs we see so frequently around Hizzoner would never, never, never pose any sort of physical threat. It really IS just necessary to watch out for the elderly in wheelchairs.

Sincerely,
A Concerned Citizen
Waco, Texas

Again, we are discussing a neat little article that got the publisher and the lady a lot of attention, with out presenting the complete story -from both sides. Is this the type of ranting that I use to hear from those I was issuing tickets on base during my MP days? Why yes, "don't tell me what to do (even though your job is to exercise authority to do your job) but give me what I want (because I pay your salary), keep channeling those dead Romans.

 

[MisterMike]

Not the point, only that to really appreciate the possible motives/intentions other than Quarantine of Dissent, like security, some experience in another perspective is helpful.

And there are a lot of other options other than waving a poster in front of the POTUS to get attention/voice your opinions.

No Loki, other perspectives are NOT ALLOWED in the Study forum.

Hehe, seriously, a granny was hauled off - point taken. That being: If you are going to stand in the way of a presidential motorcade, plan on staring thru some bars for the evening. Sign or no sign, it wasn't the area she was supposed to be in. I don't think it is too hard to comprehend.

Does anyone even think that the police (because it was the local police) are going to have some responsibility if an attempt to harm the president is successfull. I don't blame them for not playing games, and when you've already been asked twice to get out of the way, well...shouldn't take a lot of explaining. Police shouldn't be in the biz of babysitting.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Hate to mention reality, but the picture posted showed her on the grass, out of the way.

Jimmy Carter woulda got out of the limo, apologized, and asked if he could get by if he had to. But then, he and his wife walked through town to get to the Inauguration, and he's a Christian.

Love that Imperial Presidency! "POTUS?" Light on the Tom Clancy, eh? This is George Bush Jr. we're talking about, ain't it?

 

[MisterMike]

So do you have a better idea of how to define a safe zone for the president?

Where would you draw the line, at the edge of the lawn, the curb, the roadway shoulder or breakdown lane?

 

[Touch Of Death]

So do you have a better idea of how to define a safe zone for the president?

Where would you draw the line, at the edge of the lawn, the curb, the roadway shoulder or breakdown lane?

Well, for a man as polarizing as GWB, there is no safe zone.
Sean

 

[michaeledward]

If you are going to stand in the way of a presidential motorcade, plan on staring thru some bars for the evening.

She was not standing in front of a presidential motorcade. She was on a lawn adjacent to the road.

I don't blame them for not playing games, and when you've already been asked twice to get out of the way, well...shouldn't take a lot of explaining.

She had been asked to move twice ..AND.. she moved twice. It wasn't as if she declined their invitation to move.

 

[michaeledward]

So do you have a better idea of how to define a safe zone for the president?

MARS!

for this president, anyway.