Qi Explained
- Thread starter wingerjim
- Start date
And, goes quite well with mustard.
oaktree
Master of Arts
放屁 it's like 气。
Mmmm....fried Qi.And, goes quite well with mustard.
Ben S
Orange Belt
Whether you believe in chi or not, think about the simple ability to move your limbs through the simple intention to do so - all living things can do this. You want to pick up a cup - you first look at the cup, your 'intention' goes out to the cup first, then your hand. Something allows you to do this - right or wrong, I think of intention implementing movement as being chi energy. As applied to martial arts, it is probably the sense of one's own body energy that would be considered chi to oneself - when you start your warm-up exercises and the energy circulates and stuck areas of your body start to open up, that's chi energy - the body's bio-chemical - electrical energy. But who can say, really? Just my two cents.
Grandmaster Yue men quan
Orange Belt
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2017
- Messages
- 88
- Reaction score
- 4
Chi Its another name for the,sympathetic nervous system. Coupled with the canabinoid system. If you are talking acupuncture. If you are talking martial arts it's a energy usage there are many of them like rubbing, twisting, pressing, pushing, breaking, throwing, contacting while moving forward backward left right center, multiple strikes, and distanceing. If you are talking in nature yada,yada,etc.... it is a way to decribe something from natural perspective instead of getting into the science of it.
oaktree
Master of Arts
经络 And 气 are different words. The rest of the words have different hanzi then 气。 natural phenomenal do sometimes have the word 气 in them.
Energetics
White Belt
- Joined
- May 6, 2017
- Messages
- 7
- Reaction score
- 1
Simplest meaning = air
More complex = breathing
Even more complex = the energy derived from breathing
Most complex = the energy that is life
Everything that lives has Qi no matter how simple or complex. A plant derives energy from breathing / taking in carbon dioxide, we do it with oxygen. Each one give the other Qi as a waste product - balance - yin/yang - tao
Qi at higher levels communicates and can be used as all energy can, it is first learning to observe it, then learning to move it, then learning to use it.
Most Qi is under genetic control, each human organ and function has a dedicated Qi. There is also free Qi which is the energy we can play with.
As humans we live in a state of constant noise created by ourself and others, the monkey brain chatters, it wont shut up. Still your mind and still your body and what you see/feel is Qi.
Qigong simply means working with Qi. You start by learning how to breath and follow the energy, you end up many many years latter understanding why you live and what you live for, and how to die.
More complex = breathing
Even more complex = the energy derived from breathing
Most complex = the energy that is life
Everything that lives has Qi no matter how simple or complex. A plant derives energy from breathing / taking in carbon dioxide, we do it with oxygen. Each one give the other Qi as a waste product - balance - yin/yang - tao
Qi at higher levels communicates and can be used as all energy can, it is first learning to observe it, then learning to move it, then learning to use it.
Most Qi is under genetic control, each human organ and function has a dedicated Qi. There is also free Qi which is the energy we can play with.
As humans we live in a state of constant noise created by ourself and others, the monkey brain chatters, it wont shut up. Still your mind and still your body and what you see/feel is Qi.
Qigong simply means working with Qi. You start by learning how to breath and follow the energy, you end up many many years latter understanding why you live and what you live for, and how to die.
Wrong! Every westerner knows the Three Charities gave us Char. The root term in charge, char-coal, or charming. That chi stuff is just hoodoo, man.
Energetics
White Belt
- Joined
- May 6, 2017
- Messages
- 7
- Reaction score
- 1
The martial side of energy usage is different, and has many levels, from basic, soft with hard, energy within force up to energy used on it own, which you will of course call Hoodoo. But not many get to feel a true master there are few left, my one died in 2007, but he left things that may help *some people* and may cause derision in others, that is normal human nature.
Q (Yao).
Shifu (Teacher), remember when I first started boxing, I asked you a question about taiji’s energy? You told me then that after I learned the 8-Section Brocade, you would discuss this with me. Did your father (Tian Zhaolin) also teach you in this manner?
A. (Tian).
When my father was alive, he often told me of Mr. Yang Jianhou telling him, “Force is square; energy is round”.
To put it simply, we can say that power is dead but energy is flexible. For most learners, however, without at least three to five years of boxing practice, they can hardly expect to understand this concept. If they only have half-baked knowledge, it will only make it more difficult to comprehend later.
Q.
I often wonder, there must be some reason for the existence of this energy. We are already in the 21st century and science is very advanced. Why have we still not solved the energy problem? What is this energy?
A.
This is probably because tradition emphasised literature while de-emphasising martial art in Old China. In olden days many martial artists had very little opportunity to learn much of anything regarding literature. Even if they had excellent skills, even if they reached near perfection, they were not able to write down their own understanding or thoughts, let alone explore the science and theory behind this energy. Chang San Feng, Wang Zongyue, Chen Xin – those people were excellent and rare because they excelled in both literature and the martial arts. There are only a few people like them throughout history of humanity. Besides that, at that time the fields of physics and other sciences were hardly developed yet into our modern sciences. Therefore, for those previous generations, literature and science were beyond their reach and could hardly be understood. Also, unless the learner practices to a certain level they are not likely to even understand when reaching certain awareness.
Q.
Can one say that people who do not practice boxing have no way to understand this Energy? In other words, is there an objective standard to measure this energy?
A.
We must answer this question from two perspectives. First, without practice you will not feel the energy. So, if the student is unaware of it, how can he study it?
Secondly, energy, according to reason, must have some scientific basis. The question of this energy is mostly restricted to people of martial arts discussing the boxing school’s gestures within the martial arts’ field. Non-martial artists do not believe they need to study this energy and are mostly not even aware of it. Most of them believe that with such tools as we have in modern technology now and with modern weaponry there is no need to study the old martial arts.
Q.
I still do not understand the energy problem. Teacher, you are the engineer. Can you explain this energy from the scientific perspective?
A.
Well, although I have some scientific training and knowledge, I still have a long way to go. Also, because boxing is such a vast field and such a refined area, even as an engineer, I wouldn’t dare to comment with certainty or with complete confidence.
Today you explored somewhat the relationship between force and energy. This problem is simple; at the same time it is very complicated. I only offer you my personal understanding and personal perspective on this issue.
How do they differ? - First, force originates from muscle extension and contraction. When all the combined forces reach your hands through your joints, they will total approximately several tens of pounds. Most of these forces are exhausted going through the various joints. However, the whole body energy can be mobilized to send it to a particular point. This is why the practice of boxing requires all the joints be connected properly.
Consider that a lion or a tiger are kings of all the forest animals. Yet, their real force is not that much greater than that of a cow. So, how can they fell a cow? Also, consider that the leopard is an extremely fast running animal. May be you can achieve some awareness or enlightenment from observing their situation and their use of force versus energy?
Secondly, force is visible often for a relatively lengthy time period but it is somewhat rigid and unchanging. Energy, on the other hand, even if seen as a mere flash, is highly flexible. Then, consider that although a martial artist may hardly be able to lift an object weighing one hundred pounds, he can easily knock a person down.
Third, when a learner enters middle age, their force will always diminish but their energy will stay at the same level.
Fourth, force travels in a straight line, therefore, if you wish to use small force to overcome big force, you will have to induce an opponent and make him miss the target. Or, you must follow his momentum and detect the point from which to launch. There is no other way of dealing with an opponent’s force. But, small force can be used to change direction of a big force. So, when we combine forces, large and small, basically you may decide the resultant direction in accordance with a vector parallelogram.
On the other hand, energy may not only be straight; it may also be twisted. When reaching a high level of taiji skill, it is kind of like a microwave type of thing. Energy may be thought of as a wave. This is why in the practice of taiji, five bows are required in your body. All boxing movement has peng, a lifting energy. Peng is round. Peng is supportive. Peng is elastic.
Q.
If energy comes out like a wave, then can we say energy is a wave?
A.
Yes, yes, and this is why I say when you have personal experience you will get his idea right away. Just consider that when boxing books discuss energy, they also mention the shaking, penetrating, and tip-weaving energies, and also exploding energy.
Q.
Certainly that shows the seriousness and the consistency of the sciences. Do force theory and wave theory conflict?
A.
There is no conflict. Consider an airplane flying. The plane generates sound. Sound is a wave manifestation.
Q.
Can we practice force and energy at the same time?
A.
Yes, however, if we are discussing how to learn boxing, we should first learn force, learn the gestures. Then later practice energy, practice the circle, and practice qi. Once the learner is familiar with these, they may be combined.
Q.
Can you explain to me how force is described in physics?
A.
Yes, F = MA, where “M” represents the quality, mass, and “A” represents velocity. If the quality is maintained and the velocity increases, then the force increases in direct proportion. This is precisely why small force should not attempt to confront big force. However, because there is direction inside, a small force may influence a larger force. Therefore, in boxing, if you use force to hit and should you miss, you will have momentum that is difficult to change.
Energy is not like that. Note that when you throw a pebble in a pool of water or into a quiet pond, the wave goes out in all directions. Yet a leaf floating on the surface of the water does not change location because of the wave passing underneath. In other words, a wave can pass from one point to another point, in the water medium, yet all the water molecules remain in their original location. That is characteristic of wave phenomena.
Q.
When I first arrived at the farm, every harvest season, I noticed the huge fields of wheat. I especially enjoyed watching how the wind created waves that rolled across those fields of wheat. Often I wonder, okay, wheat has roots, then how can such a wave be created? I am not joking.
A.
Well, it is not a joke. Many, many have practiced taiji their whole life yet still do not understand energy theory.
Q.
What do you mean?
A.
Look, taiji boxing emphasizes “listening”, transformation, grabbing, and launching jins. Even just a discussion of “listening” jin will puzzle many people. Some believe that push-hands only practices the sense of touch. They insist on deleting the word “listening”. When my father was alive, he said, “You cannot change even one single word.”
“Listening is the most appropriate word.” Just consider how we are able to hear a sound from the other side of a wall.
Q.
Since sound is a wave phenomenon, it can propagate in many directions?
A.
Yes, remember the word “listening” is the key to understanding energy. Energy is a wave.
Q.
After hearing your explanation I understand much better now. Then, this is why when a fist hits the front-side of a person, they feel pain on their backside. The concept of mere force could hardly explain this phenomenon. But if we use wave theory, it is easy to understand it clearly. So, that is how energy is able to penetrate. Force can only be reflected; it cannot penetrate. that probably is one meaning of “force is square’ energy is round”.
A.
You, my pupil, are so observant. You have such talent to so easily comprehend and gain enlightenment.
Q.
Oh, you give me way too much credit. I have another question – can we say, in a fight, when hitting the other person’s body, that penetrating energy is always used?
A.
Not necessarily. Penetrating energy is only one term used to describe wave phenomena. A wave has many forms. Two different waves can somehow, without interrupting one another, pass through one another. They can also move together to create a group of waves. For example, cold jin, disruptive jin, inch jin – they all have momentum and also exhibit pulse. These kinds of waves are very short waves. Take, for example, three pool balls placed together, touching one another on either side aligned in a single, straight row. Now remove an outer ball and use it to hit the next in line. The farther ball will move outward at the same speed as the striking ball. What does this show?
Q.
Can we say it is because the wave passed through the second ball to the third ball?
A.
Yes, and if you understand this idea, you can understand the concept of launching others in taiji. You only see them touch hands, he does not appear to move, yet somehow the other is moved away.
First you, yourself, must have enough energy internally. This means that in your dantien you must have a strong wave, vibration.
Second, you must take advantage of the opportunity afforded in momentum.
Third, all the body’s points must be properly connected; there should be no internal resistance.
With these then, you may understand why the previous teacher Yang Shaohou advised: “First you must do the frame; second, you must know push-hands; third, you must learn how to practice launching jin.” It is more difficult than merely using force to hit others. But, it also has a much more clever method. This again is why we say, “Force is dead but energy is alive. Energy is flexible.”
After I heard your previous response, I remembered an old boxing discussion with an excellent description – “First become familiar with the gestures; then you may reach understanding energy. From understanding energy, you may reach the level of the immortal.”
Q.
Teacher, can we say that every time we touch hands we must use “listening” energy”
A.
Taiji sparring emphasizes “listening” energy. Certainly, without listening energy you can spar, however, to do so will show you still do not understand taiji.
Q.
Relying solely on one’s own force in touch hands seems to be instinctual. Why does taiji place such emphasis on the use of “listening” energy?
A.
The use of force or energy is a measure of a person’s skill level. Only when people reach the level of understanding energy can they go on to reach the level of the immortal. In addition, since taiji means to start from wuji, or of being utterly void of qi in the extreme, it is the mother of yin and yang. This kind of birth is not merely for motion. It also means there is a kind of soul inside there.
Q. How can one understand that?
A.
Think about that radio over on the table. That radio is more than just singular electronic resisters, capacitors, wires, and other devices. It is not merely an assembly of these various devices. Only when you use these devices, put them together in a certain way, can you receive radio transmissions. You could say that from nothing came something in there. Otherwise, it is just a combination of odds and ends, of useless iron, copper, and plastic, etc.
Q.
How is this related to boxing?
A.
Taiji boxing is not the mere grouping of the different components. When we discuss yin and yang, opening and closing, when you breathe, when you move energy, you must follow a certain sequence. When touching hands, how you realize your own personal situation, you must use listening. “Listening”, transformation, grabbing, and launching, the true purpose is to use a circle to transform your disadvantaged situation into an advantaged situation. This is how and why taiji was created. Taiji has no beginning; there is no end. Everything, everywhere contains change. Everything must necessarily have some different states of advantage/disadvantage condition, succeeding or losing, becoming prosperous or going through a state of deterioration. This is the so-called “taiji everywhere”. This is how you should use listening, transformation, grabbing, and launching to do transformation.
Q.
Then, can we say that “listening” is not just the physical listening but has other meanings?
A.
Oh yes, yes, “listening” has many more dimensions. But just practice “listening” jin well. Then you will be able to open energy. This opens the wave. I use our understanding of the wave phenomena to reason. This represents a higher level of taiji philosophy. The more educated people become, the more they become interested in the philosophy of taiji.
Q.
It is not easy to understand “listening”. Sometimes when people touch hands they just feel the other’s arm but cannot change to listening. I want to understand how “listening” and touching are related.
A.
The early stage of the boxing practice is characterized more by the use of force and less by energy. You use touching and groping. Everyone who learns taiji must go through this stage. However, after you understand energy, the other’s intention will pass down to you through their energy-based wave. If you still use touching and groping to feel the other, then you can hardly receive and sense those waves. Then, being unable to receive and sense, how can you know yourself and know others?
For example, we “listen” to the radio. Only if you understand the language, understand the topic of discussion, or understand the music and the meaning of the music, does the hearing become meaningful, otherwise, it is just sound or noise. If you cannot decipher those sounds, how can you know yourself and know others? This was is called, “If you want to understand music, you must have the ear for music.”
Q.
Based on what you have just said, “listening” is very similar to what I think is the American scientists’ discussion of how people communicate. The communication model is that first there is a sort of transmitter with the information, a channel, a decoder, and the receiver.
A.
But that is only one aspect of the issue. We can say that listening, transformation, grabbing, launching, this circle, can be called an information and feedback control system. “Listening” first identifies information. Then, you change and send out new information. So it is based on the feedback you receive to reach your goal.
Q.
But what is the purpose of it?
A.
In taiji boxing there is the phrase, “Stay in the middle”. This means to use the least amount of energy to reach your goal of having an advantage and creating disadvantage for the opponent. My father often said, “If you come, come in; if you leave, I will send you out”. Please just try to understand this by yourself.
Q.
Teacher, can we say that listening comes from touching but only if you understand energy does it become real “listening”?
A.
You can say it this way – If you understand the meaning, you will understand that if the other does not move, I do not move. If the other wants to move, I will move first. You should understand this theory.
Q.
Oh, you are talking about the difference between force and energy. After reaching “understanding” energy then listening reaches a much, much higher level?
A.
Yes, this is the key to learning boxing. First, you must practice. All boxing starts from the gestures.
Secondly, you must respect boxing and you must respect the teacher. Only when you respect boxing will you study carefully. Only when you respect the teacher will you get the teacher’s instruction. If you wish to discuss the real secret of learning taiji boxing – that is it.
Q.
I think the teacher’s instruction is very important.
A.
Well, it is not easy to learn boxing. But neither is it easy to teach. A gesture is the external form. The external form is easy to teach and also easy to learn. But energy is an internal quality. Internal things are difficult to teach and difficult to learn. People soon are at different levels and also have different ways to practice. Therefore, there is the Chinese saying, “If you miss by 1/10 of an inch in the beginning, the result will be off by a 1000 miles.”
Q.
Most scholars only emphasize the gesture. But if the gesture does not have internal energy, it can only enhance physical health. It will merely be like doing exercises in a gym.
A.
Yes, and this is why my father (Tian Zhaolin) said, “Good-looking gestures may not be applicable. What is applicable may not be so good-looking.”
Q.
Teacher, I still want to ask the question – when Yang Jianhou was alive, you say that he often said, “If you are light, then your are flexible.” How is this related to “listening”?
A.
Well, when you “listen” to other people’s energy, it is analogous to the use of a weight scale. If you use a large scale to weigh a very light material, of course, it will not be sensitive enough. This is why when dealing with diamonds or other precious jewels, we must use a very sophisticated scale capable of making very small measurements. This is the idea.
Q.
Can we say the lighter, the better?
A.
Here “lightness” must still carry information that will allow you to note a very, very small change. This is why we can say that you cannot add even one feather, cannot allow even one fly to alight on you without you sensing it. Otherwise, your listening energy is just not sufficiently sensitive. This means the “lightness” becomes floating. So, light is better; light is flexible, yet it must not float. Floating is an illness because there is not sufficient “listening” energy.
Q.
Today I just realized that my greatest benefit and goal is to understand “listening” and the theory of the system. Teacher, your taiji boxing comes directly from family tradition and legacy. Can we discuss how to make later generations understand this traditional value?
A.
Sure, but in boxing, I can never dare to reference myself to the previous generation. I know that there are lots of people better than me. Here today you mention taiji boxing’s value. I cannot estimate that. Boxing reaches the higher level when the internal/external can be connected. Then all the theory becomes one, regardless of whether you use soft or hard; develop to five yin and five yang. However, if you do want to strive and finally do reach this level, you will see that there is no end to it beyond that point.
So, therefore, the higher level people, when they touch one another, when they spar, they really know and can tell when the other person is developed to a higher degree. Chang San Feng said, “There is no fixed frame.” That says that boxing actually does not have a fixed rule. This refers to the gesture. This is only a way of thinking. But you have to learn those gestures first. That is how you enter the door. For example, if you learn to do painting, first you learn the framework, the basics. After you understand the framework, then you can get rid of the frame and paint at your will. My father, Tian Zhaolin, often said, “Taiji boxing is boxing guided by taiji philosophy. There is no beginning and there is no end. The beginning is the end; the end is the beginning. This is called ‘long boxing ’ ”. Everything, everywhere, in the universe continually transforms and changes. Everything is in this circle. But if you are really to understand this theory, you must have persistence and perseverance. When just reaching a most difficult part, perseverance is needed. Each time you step up to a new level you will reach a different understanding. This is the wonderfulness of taiji.
Q.
If everybody’s awareness is different, will that develop into different styles of taiji boxing?
A.
No. But, if you only see it as a boxing gesture, you could say that. But taiji boxing’s true meaning is not merely a gesture. For example, there is a book of literature entitled, “Stone”. People even make different interpretations of the content. So, taiji understanding, body awareness depends on the individual’s practicing method, progress, feeling, understanding, and awareness. This does not mean that, because you have a different awareness, you can change the essence of taiji boxing.
Q.
If this idea is so simple, why cannot everyone learn this?
A.
What you observe, you only see that on the surface. It is really not the real nature of the thing. When people try to understand the true nature (of the thing) they must make a really huge and difficult effort to get rid of the first, false perception in order to discover the true essence. They must get rid of the raw in order to discover the sophisticated nature, the true nature of what is being observed.
Taiji boxing deals with listening, transformation, grabbing, and launching jins. The beginning step is “listening”. Listening means exploration, investigation. When we deal with the concrete material, it first means that if others move fast – you move fast in response; if others move slowly – you follow slowly. However, it is not so easy to even reach the listening, transformation, grabbing, and launching levels.
Q.
Does taiji boxing have to reflect nature (listening, transformation, grabbing, and launching), so that if we have the gestures alone, can we call this taiji?
A.
If the gestures are really guided by taiji’s theory then they must show the boxing’s nature. Wang Zongyue’s boxing theory, along with the discussions of several other ancestors, all proved that, if the gestures show the boxing’s nature, it really matters not whether we call it taiji boxing. There are other names used for this, e.g., Chang Chuan (Long Boxing), soft boxing, pre-heaven boxing, and whole heaven boxing.
Q.
Teacher, this is very interesting. May I also ask, taiji as boxing – what is the initial meaning?
A.
My father, Tian Zhaolin, said, “I use boxing to understand how everything in the universe moves.” In other words, it is just “system theory” in today ’s language. We just discussed “listening”. We said that if you have a radio, if you combine all the component devices of that radio, together, combined in a certain manner, they become a new system. That is how taiji was produced. We are speaking here of our planet and the solar system, of silver atoms to electronics, of day and night. That is a system. You should understand taiji as a system that uses the circle to overcome an enemy. Understand how many circles, whether they move forward or backward; whether and how the circles are connected, visible, invisible, how they show all the theory of unity of opportunities, of yin and yang.
Q.
Teacher, how do you view the routine?
A.
The routine is also called, “making a frame”. Actually, from the beginning to the end, it is one circle. Like music, the starting rhythm changes from slow to intense; from exciting to explosion; then, returns to the slow. Similarly, repetition of gestures is necessary to run and change energy.
Q.
How do you see the different schools?
A.
All schools are good. You can reach the level of the immortal in any of them. Learning the traditional taiji boxing only means that you will use a shorter time and less physical strength to finally reach that higher level.
Q.
In taiji boxing there is the bagua with circle and xingyi’s straight lines. There is also the combination of external family’s hard energy and the internal family’s softness. Does this show that taiji is perfect?
A.
No, no, this is not the case. If you do not understand this, regardless of how hard you may try to combine everything, you are wasting your time. Know how to do 1,000 gestures is not as good as understanding one gesture completely. Boxing has no fixed law. The key is to obtain awareness of energy through being accustomed to the gestures. Then you may achieve the level of the immortal. Finally, you may reach the level of true awareness. But even this is not the end. You may go even higher.
Q.
Why do you emphasize that “listening” must come first in practicing taijiquan?
A.
This is the essence of taiji. When you respond, it depends entirely on listening, transformation, grabbing, and launching. The computer was first invented for use by the military. The purpose and function was to decipher enemy communications, calculate missile trajectories, and to make predictions on future events. Predicting future events involves “listening”. Modern weapons are very advanced. Launching missiles and defensive missiles are really based on listening sensitivity. Only when you understand listening can you change your disadvantageous situation into an advantageous position.
Q (Yao).
Shifu (Teacher), remember when I first started boxing, I asked you a question about taiji’s energy? You told me then that after I learned the 8-Section Brocade, you would discuss this with me. Did your father (Tian Zhaolin) also teach you in this manner?
A. (Tian).
When my father was alive, he often told me of Mr. Yang Jianhou telling him, “Force is square; energy is round”.
To put it simply, we can say that power is dead but energy is flexible. For most learners, however, without at least three to five years of boxing practice, they can hardly expect to understand this concept. If they only have half-baked knowledge, it will only make it more difficult to comprehend later.
Q.
I often wonder, there must be some reason for the existence of this energy. We are already in the 21st century and science is very advanced. Why have we still not solved the energy problem? What is this energy?
A.
This is probably because tradition emphasised literature while de-emphasising martial art in Old China. In olden days many martial artists had very little opportunity to learn much of anything regarding literature. Even if they had excellent skills, even if they reached near perfection, they were not able to write down their own understanding or thoughts, let alone explore the science and theory behind this energy. Chang San Feng, Wang Zongyue, Chen Xin – those people were excellent and rare because they excelled in both literature and the martial arts. There are only a few people like them throughout history of humanity. Besides that, at that time the fields of physics and other sciences were hardly developed yet into our modern sciences. Therefore, for those previous generations, literature and science were beyond their reach and could hardly be understood. Also, unless the learner practices to a certain level they are not likely to even understand when reaching certain awareness.
Q.
Can one say that people who do not practice boxing have no way to understand this Energy? In other words, is there an objective standard to measure this energy?
A.
We must answer this question from two perspectives. First, without practice you will not feel the energy. So, if the student is unaware of it, how can he study it?
Secondly, energy, according to reason, must have some scientific basis. The question of this energy is mostly restricted to people of martial arts discussing the boxing school’s gestures within the martial arts’ field. Non-martial artists do not believe they need to study this energy and are mostly not even aware of it. Most of them believe that with such tools as we have in modern technology now and with modern weaponry there is no need to study the old martial arts.
Q.
I still do not understand the energy problem. Teacher, you are the engineer. Can you explain this energy from the scientific perspective?
A.
Well, although I have some scientific training and knowledge, I still have a long way to go. Also, because boxing is such a vast field and such a refined area, even as an engineer, I wouldn’t dare to comment with certainty or with complete confidence.
Today you explored somewhat the relationship between force and energy. This problem is simple; at the same time it is very complicated. I only offer you my personal understanding and personal perspective on this issue.
How do they differ? - First, force originates from muscle extension and contraction. When all the combined forces reach your hands through your joints, they will total approximately several tens of pounds. Most of these forces are exhausted going through the various joints. However, the whole body energy can be mobilized to send it to a particular point. This is why the practice of boxing requires all the joints be connected properly.
Consider that a lion or a tiger are kings of all the forest animals. Yet, their real force is not that much greater than that of a cow. So, how can they fell a cow? Also, consider that the leopard is an extremely fast running animal. May be you can achieve some awareness or enlightenment from observing their situation and their use of force versus energy?
Secondly, force is visible often for a relatively lengthy time period but it is somewhat rigid and unchanging. Energy, on the other hand, even if seen as a mere flash, is highly flexible. Then, consider that although a martial artist may hardly be able to lift an object weighing one hundred pounds, he can easily knock a person down.
Third, when a learner enters middle age, their force will always diminish but their energy will stay at the same level.
Fourth, force travels in a straight line, therefore, if you wish to use small force to overcome big force, you will have to induce an opponent and make him miss the target. Or, you must follow his momentum and detect the point from which to launch. There is no other way of dealing with an opponent’s force. But, small force can be used to change direction of a big force. So, when we combine forces, large and small, basically you may decide the resultant direction in accordance with a vector parallelogram.
On the other hand, energy may not only be straight; it may also be twisted. When reaching a high level of taiji skill, it is kind of like a microwave type of thing. Energy may be thought of as a wave. This is why in the practice of taiji, five bows are required in your body. All boxing movement has peng, a lifting energy. Peng is round. Peng is supportive. Peng is elastic.
Q.
If energy comes out like a wave, then can we say energy is a wave?
A.
Yes, yes, and this is why I say when you have personal experience you will get his idea right away. Just consider that when boxing books discuss energy, they also mention the shaking, penetrating, and tip-weaving energies, and also exploding energy.
Q.
Certainly that shows the seriousness and the consistency of the sciences. Do force theory and wave theory conflict?
A.
There is no conflict. Consider an airplane flying. The plane generates sound. Sound is a wave manifestation.
Q.
Can we practice force and energy at the same time?
A.
Yes, however, if we are discussing how to learn boxing, we should first learn force, learn the gestures. Then later practice energy, practice the circle, and practice qi. Once the learner is familiar with these, they may be combined.
Q.
Can you explain to me how force is described in physics?
A.
Yes, F = MA, where “M” represents the quality, mass, and “A” represents velocity. If the quality is maintained and the velocity increases, then the force increases in direct proportion. This is precisely why small force should not attempt to confront big force. However, because there is direction inside, a small force may influence a larger force. Therefore, in boxing, if you use force to hit and should you miss, you will have momentum that is difficult to change.
Energy is not like that. Note that when you throw a pebble in a pool of water or into a quiet pond, the wave goes out in all directions. Yet a leaf floating on the surface of the water does not change location because of the wave passing underneath. In other words, a wave can pass from one point to another point, in the water medium, yet all the water molecules remain in their original location. That is characteristic of wave phenomena.
Q.
When I first arrived at the farm, every harvest season, I noticed the huge fields of wheat. I especially enjoyed watching how the wind created waves that rolled across those fields of wheat. Often I wonder, okay, wheat has roots, then how can such a wave be created? I am not joking.
A.
Well, it is not a joke. Many, many have practiced taiji their whole life yet still do not understand energy theory.
Q.
What do you mean?
A.
Look, taiji boxing emphasizes “listening”, transformation, grabbing, and launching jins. Even just a discussion of “listening” jin will puzzle many people. Some believe that push-hands only practices the sense of touch. They insist on deleting the word “listening”. When my father was alive, he said, “You cannot change even one single word.”
“Listening is the most appropriate word.” Just consider how we are able to hear a sound from the other side of a wall.
Q.
Since sound is a wave phenomenon, it can propagate in many directions?
A.
Yes, remember the word “listening” is the key to understanding energy. Energy is a wave.
Q.
After hearing your explanation I understand much better now. Then, this is why when a fist hits the front-side of a person, they feel pain on their backside. The concept of mere force could hardly explain this phenomenon. But if we use wave theory, it is easy to understand it clearly. So, that is how energy is able to penetrate. Force can only be reflected; it cannot penetrate. that probably is one meaning of “force is square’ energy is round”.
A.
You, my pupil, are so observant. You have such talent to so easily comprehend and gain enlightenment.
Q.
Oh, you give me way too much credit. I have another question – can we say, in a fight, when hitting the other person’s body, that penetrating energy is always used?
A.
Not necessarily. Penetrating energy is only one term used to describe wave phenomena. A wave has many forms. Two different waves can somehow, without interrupting one another, pass through one another. They can also move together to create a group of waves. For example, cold jin, disruptive jin, inch jin – they all have momentum and also exhibit pulse. These kinds of waves are very short waves. Take, for example, three pool balls placed together, touching one another on either side aligned in a single, straight row. Now remove an outer ball and use it to hit the next in line. The farther ball will move outward at the same speed as the striking ball. What does this show?
Q.
Can we say it is because the wave passed through the second ball to the third ball?
A.
Yes, and if you understand this idea, you can understand the concept of launching others in taiji. You only see them touch hands, he does not appear to move, yet somehow the other is moved away.
First you, yourself, must have enough energy internally. This means that in your dantien you must have a strong wave, vibration.
Second, you must take advantage of the opportunity afforded in momentum.
Third, all the body’s points must be properly connected; there should be no internal resistance.
With these then, you may understand why the previous teacher Yang Shaohou advised: “First you must do the frame; second, you must know push-hands; third, you must learn how to practice launching jin.” It is more difficult than merely using force to hit others. But, it also has a much more clever method. This again is why we say, “Force is dead but energy is alive. Energy is flexible.”
After I heard your previous response, I remembered an old boxing discussion with an excellent description – “First become familiar with the gestures; then you may reach understanding energy. From understanding energy, you may reach the level of the immortal.”
Q.
Teacher, can we say that every time we touch hands we must use “listening” energy”
A.
Taiji sparring emphasizes “listening” energy. Certainly, without listening energy you can spar, however, to do so will show you still do not understand taiji.
Q.
Relying solely on one’s own force in touch hands seems to be instinctual. Why does taiji place such emphasis on the use of “listening” energy?
A.
The use of force or energy is a measure of a person’s skill level. Only when people reach the level of understanding energy can they go on to reach the level of the immortal. In addition, since taiji means to start from wuji, or of being utterly void of qi in the extreme, it is the mother of yin and yang. This kind of birth is not merely for motion. It also means there is a kind of soul inside there.
Q. How can one understand that?
A.
Think about that radio over on the table. That radio is more than just singular electronic resisters, capacitors, wires, and other devices. It is not merely an assembly of these various devices. Only when you use these devices, put them together in a certain way, can you receive radio transmissions. You could say that from nothing came something in there. Otherwise, it is just a combination of odds and ends, of useless iron, copper, and plastic, etc.
Q.
How is this related to boxing?
A.
Taiji boxing is not the mere grouping of the different components. When we discuss yin and yang, opening and closing, when you breathe, when you move energy, you must follow a certain sequence. When touching hands, how you realize your own personal situation, you must use listening. “Listening”, transformation, grabbing, and launching, the true purpose is to use a circle to transform your disadvantaged situation into an advantaged situation. This is how and why taiji was created. Taiji has no beginning; there is no end. Everything, everywhere contains change. Everything must necessarily have some different states of advantage/disadvantage condition, succeeding or losing, becoming prosperous or going through a state of deterioration. This is the so-called “taiji everywhere”. This is how you should use listening, transformation, grabbing, and launching to do transformation.
Q.
Then, can we say that “listening” is not just the physical listening but has other meanings?
A.
Oh yes, yes, “listening” has many more dimensions. But just practice “listening” jin well. Then you will be able to open energy. This opens the wave. I use our understanding of the wave phenomena to reason. This represents a higher level of taiji philosophy. The more educated people become, the more they become interested in the philosophy of taiji.
Q.
It is not easy to understand “listening”. Sometimes when people touch hands they just feel the other’s arm but cannot change to listening. I want to understand how “listening” and touching are related.
A.
The early stage of the boxing practice is characterized more by the use of force and less by energy. You use touching and groping. Everyone who learns taiji must go through this stage. However, after you understand energy, the other’s intention will pass down to you through their energy-based wave. If you still use touching and groping to feel the other, then you can hardly receive and sense those waves. Then, being unable to receive and sense, how can you know yourself and know others?
For example, we “listen” to the radio. Only if you understand the language, understand the topic of discussion, or understand the music and the meaning of the music, does the hearing become meaningful, otherwise, it is just sound or noise. If you cannot decipher those sounds, how can you know yourself and know others? This was is called, “If you want to understand music, you must have the ear for music.”
Q.
Based on what you have just said, “listening” is very similar to what I think is the American scientists’ discussion of how people communicate. The communication model is that first there is a sort of transmitter with the information, a channel, a decoder, and the receiver.
A.
But that is only one aspect of the issue. We can say that listening, transformation, grabbing, launching, this circle, can be called an information and feedback control system. “Listening” first identifies information. Then, you change and send out new information. So it is based on the feedback you receive to reach your goal.
Q.
But what is the purpose of it?
A.
In taiji boxing there is the phrase, “Stay in the middle”. This means to use the least amount of energy to reach your goal of having an advantage and creating disadvantage for the opponent. My father often said, “If you come, come in; if you leave, I will send you out”. Please just try to understand this by yourself.
Q.
Teacher, can we say that listening comes from touching but only if you understand energy does it become real “listening”?
A.
You can say it this way – If you understand the meaning, you will understand that if the other does not move, I do not move. If the other wants to move, I will move first. You should understand this theory.
Q.
Oh, you are talking about the difference between force and energy. After reaching “understanding” energy then listening reaches a much, much higher level?
A.
Yes, this is the key to learning boxing. First, you must practice. All boxing starts from the gestures.
Secondly, you must respect boxing and you must respect the teacher. Only when you respect boxing will you study carefully. Only when you respect the teacher will you get the teacher’s instruction. If you wish to discuss the real secret of learning taiji boxing – that is it.
Q.
I think the teacher’s instruction is very important.
A.
Well, it is not easy to learn boxing. But neither is it easy to teach. A gesture is the external form. The external form is easy to teach and also easy to learn. But energy is an internal quality. Internal things are difficult to teach and difficult to learn. People soon are at different levels and also have different ways to practice. Therefore, there is the Chinese saying, “If you miss by 1/10 of an inch in the beginning, the result will be off by a 1000 miles.”
Q.
Most scholars only emphasize the gesture. But if the gesture does not have internal energy, it can only enhance physical health. It will merely be like doing exercises in a gym.
A.
Yes, and this is why my father (Tian Zhaolin) said, “Good-looking gestures may not be applicable. What is applicable may not be so good-looking.”
Q.
Teacher, I still want to ask the question – when Yang Jianhou was alive, you say that he often said, “If you are light, then your are flexible.” How is this related to “listening”?
A.
Well, when you “listen” to other people’s energy, it is analogous to the use of a weight scale. If you use a large scale to weigh a very light material, of course, it will not be sensitive enough. This is why when dealing with diamonds or other precious jewels, we must use a very sophisticated scale capable of making very small measurements. This is the idea.
Q.
Can we say the lighter, the better?
A.
Here “lightness” must still carry information that will allow you to note a very, very small change. This is why we can say that you cannot add even one feather, cannot allow even one fly to alight on you without you sensing it. Otherwise, your listening energy is just not sufficiently sensitive. This means the “lightness” becomes floating. So, light is better; light is flexible, yet it must not float. Floating is an illness because there is not sufficient “listening” energy.
Q.
Today I just realized that my greatest benefit and goal is to understand “listening” and the theory of the system. Teacher, your taiji boxing comes directly from family tradition and legacy. Can we discuss how to make later generations understand this traditional value?
A.
Sure, but in boxing, I can never dare to reference myself to the previous generation. I know that there are lots of people better than me. Here today you mention taiji boxing’s value. I cannot estimate that. Boxing reaches the higher level when the internal/external can be connected. Then all the theory becomes one, regardless of whether you use soft or hard; develop to five yin and five yang. However, if you do want to strive and finally do reach this level, you will see that there is no end to it beyond that point.
So, therefore, the higher level people, when they touch one another, when they spar, they really know and can tell when the other person is developed to a higher degree. Chang San Feng said, “There is no fixed frame.” That says that boxing actually does not have a fixed rule. This refers to the gesture. This is only a way of thinking. But you have to learn those gestures first. That is how you enter the door. For example, if you learn to do painting, first you learn the framework, the basics. After you understand the framework, then you can get rid of the frame and paint at your will. My father, Tian Zhaolin, often said, “Taiji boxing is boxing guided by taiji philosophy. There is no beginning and there is no end. The beginning is the end; the end is the beginning. This is called ‘long boxing ’ ”. Everything, everywhere, in the universe continually transforms and changes. Everything is in this circle. But if you are really to understand this theory, you must have persistence and perseverance. When just reaching a most difficult part, perseverance is needed. Each time you step up to a new level you will reach a different understanding. This is the wonderfulness of taiji.
Q.
If everybody’s awareness is different, will that develop into different styles of taiji boxing?
A.
No. But, if you only see it as a boxing gesture, you could say that. But taiji boxing’s true meaning is not merely a gesture. For example, there is a book of literature entitled, “Stone”. People even make different interpretations of the content. So, taiji understanding, body awareness depends on the individual’s practicing method, progress, feeling, understanding, and awareness. This does not mean that, because you have a different awareness, you can change the essence of taiji boxing.
Q.
If this idea is so simple, why cannot everyone learn this?
A.
What you observe, you only see that on the surface. It is really not the real nature of the thing. When people try to understand the true nature (of the thing) they must make a really huge and difficult effort to get rid of the first, false perception in order to discover the true essence. They must get rid of the raw in order to discover the sophisticated nature, the true nature of what is being observed.
Taiji boxing deals with listening, transformation, grabbing, and launching jins. The beginning step is “listening”. Listening means exploration, investigation. When we deal with the concrete material, it first means that if others move fast – you move fast in response; if others move slowly – you follow slowly. However, it is not so easy to even reach the listening, transformation, grabbing, and launching levels.
Q.
Does taiji boxing have to reflect nature (listening, transformation, grabbing, and launching), so that if we have the gestures alone, can we call this taiji?
A.
If the gestures are really guided by taiji’s theory then they must show the boxing’s nature. Wang Zongyue’s boxing theory, along with the discussions of several other ancestors, all proved that, if the gestures show the boxing’s nature, it really matters not whether we call it taiji boxing. There are other names used for this, e.g., Chang Chuan (Long Boxing), soft boxing, pre-heaven boxing, and whole heaven boxing.
Q.
Teacher, this is very interesting. May I also ask, taiji as boxing – what is the initial meaning?
A.
My father, Tian Zhaolin, said, “I use boxing to understand how everything in the universe moves.” In other words, it is just “system theory” in today ’s language. We just discussed “listening”. We said that if you have a radio, if you combine all the component devices of that radio, together, combined in a certain manner, they become a new system. That is how taiji was produced. We are speaking here of our planet and the solar system, of silver atoms to electronics, of day and night. That is a system. You should understand taiji as a system that uses the circle to overcome an enemy. Understand how many circles, whether they move forward or backward; whether and how the circles are connected, visible, invisible, how they show all the theory of unity of opportunities, of yin and yang.
Q.
Teacher, how do you view the routine?
A.
The routine is also called, “making a frame”. Actually, from the beginning to the end, it is one circle. Like music, the starting rhythm changes from slow to intense; from exciting to explosion; then, returns to the slow. Similarly, repetition of gestures is necessary to run and change energy.
Q.
How do you see the different schools?
A.
All schools are good. You can reach the level of the immortal in any of them. Learning the traditional taiji boxing only means that you will use a shorter time and less physical strength to finally reach that higher level.
Q.
In taiji boxing there is the bagua with circle and xingyi’s straight lines. There is also the combination of external family’s hard energy and the internal family’s softness. Does this show that taiji is perfect?
A.
No, no, this is not the case. If you do not understand this, regardless of how hard you may try to combine everything, you are wasting your time. Know how to do 1,000 gestures is not as good as understanding one gesture completely. Boxing has no fixed law. The key is to obtain awareness of energy through being accustomed to the gestures. Then you may achieve the level of the immortal. Finally, you may reach the level of true awareness. But even this is not the end. You may go even higher.
Q.
Why do you emphasize that “listening” must come first in practicing taijiquan?
A.
This is the essence of taiji. When you respond, it depends entirely on listening, transformation, grabbing, and launching. The computer was first invented for use by the military. The purpose and function was to decipher enemy communications, calculate missile trajectories, and to make predictions on future events. Predicting future events involves “listening”. Modern weapons are very advanced. Launching missiles and defensive missiles are really based on listening sensitivity. Only when you understand listening can you change your disadvantageous situation into an advantageous position.
oaktree
Master of Arts
Was that from an article or something?
mograph
Master of Arts
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
- Messages
- 1,885
- Reaction score
- 1,102
It seems so: Holding Page for interview
Energetics
White Belt
- Joined
- May 6, 2017
- Messages
- 7
- Reaction score
- 1
It is from my website. I wanted to give information not to be seen as promoting.
Holding Page for interview
Holding Page for interview
oaktree
Master of Arts
Well that explains things.
Grandmaster Yue men quan
Orange Belt
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2017
- Messages
- 88
- Reaction score
- 4
What will really fry peoples mind in the west is chi is a describing word for life. So you can translate tai chi chuan as grand ultimate fist. You can also translate it at bird energy fist. Meaning bird life fist. Or just fist of the bird. You can have wei jia external energy, nei jia internal energy. Or white energy and dark energy as translations for the same words. The reason people in the west mistake this is because we're taught that things have something to do with us personally. The language were studying from the language is used like we are describing something or an attribute of something. This way they build a picture out of there language. There kung-fu is also set up this way so that there performance is building a picture with there movements. Classically the language of martial arts was Cantonese now only Chinese red necks speak it because it isn't easily adapted to modern ways of thought. Just thought I'd share this with you. In American culture if I'm teaching someone martial arts I have no use for the Chinese terms or Japanese or any other languages. If however I'm teaching someone kung-fu they would have to understand this then I would introduce the Chinese word for it because some of the things there really is no western word for. Another part of Chinese thought that is implied in martial arts is wu chi, tai chi, pakua, I ching and the five elements, in western language it is circle, square, octagon, octagon's together, and strait line star. They are patterns of thought that are used in language, kung-fu and system building. So chi can be any component of any of the system as it is described in relation to the reference word that it is attached to. So tai chi chuan, tai and chuan are attached to it so tai bird and chuan fist are tied together by chi energy. Sure I'll get a lot of heckler's for this post but it's true.
oaktree
Master of Arts
太极拳 this 极 not this 鸡
Cantonese are not red neck equivalent actually Cantonese girls I think are cuter.
The rest of the Chinese words are not correct translated.
Cantonese are not red neck equivalent actually Cantonese girls I think are cuter.
The rest of the Chinese words are not correct translated.
Energetics
White Belt
- Joined
- May 6, 2017
- Messages
- 7
- Reaction score
- 1
In the beginning there was wuchi = nothingness with the potential of becoming something.
From wuchi emerged taichi = the supreme ultimate
From taichi emerged yin and yang = the opposed forces of opposites, the interaction of which that creates everything.
Mass and energy were formed in conflict, mass passes through energy, energy passes through mass. Mass confronts mass, energy confronts energy.
Both are required for there to be life.
Yi is mind, Li is body (muscle), Qi is energy. A three legged stool we all sit on.
You have a physical being, the one that you see in the mirror everyday, it is a biological organic machine that can break down and will wear out, being organic it is also subject to other biological machines hijacking it for their own purposes (fungi, bacteria and viruses).
You are also a reasoning and calculating being, this is the person doing the observing of you in the mirror. It is a biological organic computer that as with the modern electronic version can be subject to overload, information loss, or when the program gets corrupted, crashing.
Within these two physical personas is the energetic persona that makes it all work, and also provides the emotional aspects to your life. From the spark of life given to you at conception this energy is the means by which everything “works”, your energetic being. In Chinese. It is referred to as Chi (Qi), in Japanese Ki and in India Prana. It can manifest itself in many different ways that western science is only just beginning to understand.
Each organ and bodily function has its own energy dedicated to its correct function, dictated by your genetic programming and controlled by your unconscious mind. This energy causes the growth, sustaining, and ultimately the decline of our physical and mental being. The purist form of this energy is given to us at conception and is referred to in some cultures as soul or spirit, it is the last energy to leave the machine when the lights finally go out. All the other energy we use and retain throughout our lives comes from the food we consume and the air that we breath, and the quality of this fuel is important for the quality of the resulting energy.
From wuchi emerged taichi = the supreme ultimate
From taichi emerged yin and yang = the opposed forces of opposites, the interaction of which that creates everything.
Mass and energy were formed in conflict, mass passes through energy, energy passes through mass. Mass confronts mass, energy confronts energy.
Both are required for there to be life.
Yi is mind, Li is body (muscle), Qi is energy. A three legged stool we all sit on.
You have a physical being, the one that you see in the mirror everyday, it is a biological organic machine that can break down and will wear out, being organic it is also subject to other biological machines hijacking it for their own purposes (fungi, bacteria and viruses).
You are also a reasoning and calculating being, this is the person doing the observing of you in the mirror. It is a biological organic computer that as with the modern electronic version can be subject to overload, information loss, or when the program gets corrupted, crashing.
Within these two physical personas is the energetic persona that makes it all work, and also provides the emotional aspects to your life. From the spark of life given to you at conception this energy is the means by which everything “works”, your energetic being. In Chinese. It is referred to as Chi (Qi), in Japanese Ki and in India Prana. It can manifest itself in many different ways that western science is only just beginning to understand.
Each organ and bodily function has its own energy dedicated to its correct function, dictated by your genetic programming and controlled by your unconscious mind. This energy causes the growth, sustaining, and ultimately the decline of our physical and mental being. The purist form of this energy is given to us at conception and is referred to in some cultures as soul or spirit, it is the last energy to leave the machine when the lights finally go out. All the other energy we use and retain throughout our lives comes from the food we consume and the air that we breath, and the quality of this fuel is important for the quality of the resulting energy.
Grandmaster Yue men quan
Orange Belt
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2017
- Messages
- 88
- Reaction score
- 4
The ox cart trail the same as king Solomon's temple. I think they are both lineages of masonry but don't quite know where the intercession happened between the ancient church. Chi is shown by a pot of boiling rice classically to westerners. Steaming rice makes pot lid vibrate. It was a analogy for internal strengh. The more I play with empty force the more since this makes. When you lead someone to emptyness you really don't even have to move just charge your chi in the position you are in when you make contact. I see this train of thought when I think chi it really can take all shapes of anything. The internal work or external work in martial arts is what we study that could be a coffee cup or a fist. It all has a sorce of chi and each is different. On the wholeistic side I don't know what others are thinking.
