Putting yourself into the Form

[paihequan]

With respect ....

How many of you in your studies actually place yourself into the form you study?

What I'm talking about is instead of simply "doing" the form (Kata, Taolu etc) how many of you try to internalize the form making it your own?

Have any of you had to slightly modify the form in order to execute same perhaps as a result of an injury, lack of flexibility etc?

Looking forward to your views


:asian:

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by paihequan
What I'm talking about is instead of simply "doing" the form (Kata, Taolu etc) how many of you try to internalize the form making it your own?

This is a common mistake made by begginers.

I had the good fortune to have a real master teach me Chuan Fa. The first time I tried to make the form "my own" he set me straight in no uncertain terms.

You learn the form and let it guide and shape you. You go into it without any preconceptions or expectiations. You let the teacher tell you what to do and expect. After you have mastered it as per the teacher's instructions, only then can you make something your own. A student, by definition, does not know anything of value. Trying to make something his own means making something made by someone who knows nothing.

Of course, there are many people in the West who do not bother to learn from others before they try to impose their own egocentric views on the arts. This is why there are so many inferior artists we can point to. This is why I feel that being able to trust your teacher is so much more important than anything else.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Don,

Nice post.
I believe what we are talking about is Shu Ha Ri.
A concept that is often lost on many practitioners be they Asian or Westerners.

Basic Definition of Shu Ha Ri with a Chinese twist.......
The Chinese character Shou in Chinese and Shu in Japanese is composed of two parts, House and Law. Hence the house of laws. The character means "to abide by; to defend". Shou(abide by) Shi(time) is being punctual, and Shou(abide by) Xin(trust) is being trustworthy.

Po in Chin. & Ha in Jap. is composed of two parts, Stone and a phonetic part. It means "to break".

Li in Chin. & Ri in Jap. is composed of two parts, Bird and a phonetic part. It means "to leave; to depart". Li(to leave) Hwen(marriage) is divorce.


Here is an interesting take on the definition also:
http://www.advdojo.org/shuhari.html

Teaching and Shu-Ha-Ri
The traditional Japanese method of knowledge transmission

By Yukiyoshi Takamura, edited by Nanette Okura
Republished by permission of Stan Pranin, Aikido Journal

[Note: Takamura Sensei wrote this essay for inclusion in the Shindo Yoshin Kai instructors’ manual. Although specifically written for instructor-level members, I find so much value in this essay that I have decided to make it available to all members. I will include it in the next printing of the school’s student handbook. - Toby Threadgill.]

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yukiyoshi Takamura (1928-2000)

"Shu-ha-ri" literally means embracing the kata, diverging from the kata (prearranged solo form - S.D.) and discarding the kata. The pursuit of training in a classical Japanese endeavor almost always follows this educational process. This unique approach to learning has existed for centuries in Japan and has been instrumental in the survival of many older Japanese knowledge traditions. These include such diverse pursuits as martial arts, flower arranging, puppetry, theater, poetry, painting, sculpture and weaving. As successful as shu-ha-ri has been into the modern era, new approaches to teaching and learning are altering this traditional Japanese method of knowledge transmission. Whether traditional Japanese arts and endeavors are successfully passed to the next generation of practitioners is up to the sensei (teachers) of today and their wisdom in confronting the inherent strengths and pitfalls of shu-ha-ri. In this essay I will focus on shu-ha-ri and its unique application in the honorable martial discipline of Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin-ryu jujutsu.



Shoden: The beginning level of training

Shu (Embracing the kata)

The kata or form is the educational core of all traditional Japanese knowledge schools. It is the most visible representation of a school’s knowledge packaged into one seemingly simple set of movements or concepts. Because the kata is so accessible it is often mistaken to be the most important aspect of determining a students ability or progress. In fact, properly taught, the kata does contain within it the ura or hidden level of information, but this information lies beneath the surface or omote of simple observation. Without first devoting oneself entirely to the mastery of the omote of the kata, the student is destined to remain forever a beginner, never able to progress towards the true depth of knowledge that rests hidden in the ura before him. To experience shu and embrace the kata, the student must first resign himself and his ego to a seemingly random series of repetitious exercises. Often these beginning or shoden level kata are by design intended to challenge the students concentration levels and devotion to learning. In some of the more rigorous traditions, kata are intended to create physical discomfort in addition to this exercise. Overcoming physical discomfort in this type of kata is just the first level of training the student to mentally focus exclusively on one task. As the student progresses through the various kata, different aspects of stress and distraction are encountered. As these challenges grow more intense the student’s mind learns to process information and stress in a much more efficient manner. In time different neuro-muscular processes become intuitively ingrained in such a way that they are no longer consciously realized by the student. Once this level of kata is absorbed and executed satisfactorily, the student has reached the first level of his or her training. Other more advanced kata will be presented throughout training which present greater and more diverse challenges, but the mental methodology for learning is now in place. The most basic reason for kata training has been achieved.



The pitfalls of teaching at the shoden level

At this level it is possible for kata to teach all by themselves. They are after all physical repetitions that challenge and instruct in an almost totally private experience. Although it might seem an exaggeration, anyone who knows the basic movements of a kata can take a student to this first level of training. It is even possible for some students to reach this level of training entirely by learning from a device like a book. However, this hands-off approach to learning by the sensei places the student in a perilous situation, especially in the teaching of paired kata. The most common downfall here is a sensei’s lack of diligent attention to physical form and proper timing. Simply stated, many low-level instructors teaching ability suffers due to their own mediocre instruction. Due to this they now instill poor habits into their students that must be unlearned at a later time. This is not only potentially dangerous, but can be quite frustrating to the student. This teaching flaw has resulted in many excellent prospective students becoming disenfranchised from their training experience and discontinuing their pursuit. Diligent instruction even at the most basic level of kata training is absolutely mandatory. Basics are at the core of any pursuits proper execution and should never be undervalued.



Chuden: The intermediate level of training

"Shu" at the chuden level

At the chuden level kata study includes a new element. This element is the application or bunkai. The deeper reason for the kata and its construction is now presented to the student. The scenario in which the kata exists is also studied and evaluated. This study and evaluation is however strictly limited to the pure execution of the kata without variation. Only through this strict study can the kata accurately demonstrate its relevance to the student at a level he can comprehend. During this process the sensei helps the student begin to grasp the existence of the ura, those aspects that lie hidden beneath the surface of the physical form. For some students this realization is a revelation while to others it has been obvious for some time. Either way, the sensei must now accurately present basic concepts on a more abstract level than before. This paves the way for the second aspect of shu-ha-ri.



Ha (diverging from the kata)

In the traditional Japanese concept of shu-ha-ri, ha is the first hint of creative expression allowed the student. It is when the henka waza or variation is first experienced. It has been called the "divergent form existing within the form" or the "orthodox variation that co-exists within the confines of the strictly defined greater kata." This is when the student is encouraged to consider any response to a failure within the pure kata. Extremely attentive instruction is required by the sensei at this juncture because too much deviation will lead to sloppiness or bastardization of technique, while too much restraint can cripple any underlying intuitive talent. Encouraging intuitive creative talent is the purpose here but this creative experience must be diligently tempered by the confines of the greater kata. The kata must remain recognizable as the kata. If the kata diverges too far from the norm, it is no longer related to the original kata and becomes an altogether different expression of technique. It is imperative that such a deviation be avoided at this level of learning.


Ha, at the chuden level

Once the student discovers the boundaries of his training within the greater kata he will find the possibilities of learning almost endless. Progress comes now in leaps of ability not experienced in the past. Most excellent students first demonstrate their real potential during this stage of their study. The concepts and forms of the ryu integrate in a manner that intellectually stimulates the student’s mind. He now more fully appreciates the kata and recognizes the technical wisdom that exists within it. Consequently, many sensei find this time the most rewarding in a student’s progress. The fruits of a sensei’s labor manifest themselves powerfully during this period.



The pitfalls of teaching at the chuden level.

Strict adherence to the core concepts of the particular tradition must be adhered to at this time. To deviate from the core concepts that define the ryu will allow the student to proceed in a direction not intended by the Ryuso (founder). The boundaries of the kata must be adhered to for the ryu to maintain its identity and focus. Stepping beyond the confines of the kata at this point can be disastrous and a student’s ultimate potential compromised. Sensei often fall into the trap of becoming too unstructured in their teaching at this level of training. They misread the student’s progress and take him too far beyond his level of comprehension. The student’s mind and technique must be constantly challenged during this intermediate stage of learning, but occasionally an overzealous student will attempt to move too far too fast. This tendency must be avoided or it will compromise further progress and learning.



Joden: The advanced level of training

Ri (discarding the kata)

Some practitioners of modern martial traditions dismiss kata and shu-ha-ri as being too confining or old fashioned. In truth, this position is flawed because they misinterpret the purpose of kata. Like so many armchair experts, they have not been properly trained beyond the shoden level in kata and are commenting on a subject about which they simply are unqualified and therefore unable to comprehend. Like most observers outside the experience of deep study, they see the kata as the art itself instead of a sophisticated teaching tool that is only a surface reflection of an arts core concepts. The kata, in their flawed interpretation "is" the art. This is like the flaw of assuming a dictionary to be a complete representation of language. Unfortunately, numerous older martial traditions in Japan unintentionally reinforce this misinterpretation by overemphasizing the kata. Often with these schools significant core elements and knowledge have been lost to antiquity so that all that remains is the omote or outer shell of the kata. With nothing left but the kata to embrace, these schools often reinterpret their mokuroku (technical syllabus), making the kata the primary driving force of the ryu. When this happens the ryu inevitably degenerates into a simplistic dance where the ura and applications of the kata become of secondary focus. These traditions are effectively dead. They are like skeletons attempting to represent a total person.



"Ri" What is it?

"Ri" is difficult to explain as it is not so much taught as it is arrived at. It is a state of execution that simply occurs after shu and ha have been internalized. It is the absorption of the kata to such an advanced level that the outer shell of the kata ceases to exist. Only the underlying truth of the kata remains. It is form without being conscious of form. It is intuitive expression of technique that is as efficient as the prearranged form but utterly spontaneous. Technique unbridled by the restriction of conscious thought processes result in an application of waza that is truly a moving meditation. For one who has achieved ri, observation becomes its own expression of reality. The mind is now free to operate on a distinctly higher level than previously possible. To the casual observer it appears that the exponent has become almost psychic, able to recognize an occurrence or threat before it actually exists. In truth the observer is just fooled by his own mind’s mental inertia. With ri, the lag time between observation and cognitive response is reduced to almost imperceptible levels. It is "ki". It is "mushin". It is "ju". It is all these things in combination. It is the manifestation of the highest level of martial ability. It is what we refer to in the Takamura ryuha as "wa".

The level of technical execution associated with ri is realistically beyond the ability of many practitioners. Most people are simply incapable of reaching this, the most advanced level of expression of a ryu’s potential. Frequently however, practitioners who never reach this level of technical execution make excellent sensei, able to take a student to the edge of mastery even though they themselves are incapable of making the jump to the intuitive execution that is ri. Some observers try to dismiss this recognition of limitation as elitist. I find this thinking odd. I would like to remind these observers that not all human beings are innately capable of mastery in all pursuits. As individuals we are endowed with certain talents and deficiencies. It is these individual talents and deficiencies that make us humans the diverse and unique species we are. To try to deny this truth is to deny what makes up our individuality. With this in mind it is imperative to remember that the humble individual realizes that mastery in one pursuit does not guarantee even average talent in another. Likewise, technical expertise does not necessarily guarantee teaching expertise.



Pitfalls of teaching at and beyond the joden level

Once a student has reached the level of realizing ri on a regular basis he has essentially achieved all the technical ability a sensei can strictly teach him. The process of instruction and teaching must now evolve. The relationship between teacher and student must be allowed by the sensei to evolve as well. At this point the student is charged by the traditions of his ryu and the vows of his keppan (blood oath) to maintain control of his ego and recognize that without the sensei and the ryu he would never have achieved his ultimate potential as a student. He must acknowledge that he owes all that he has learned to his sensei’s devotion to teaching and his sensei’s sensei. His behavior must reflect that he is forever in debt to the ryu and that he is compelled to be humbled in his teacher’s presence. Likewise, the sensei must now allow autonomy and self-expression by the student in a way never previously permitted. More a leader and pointer of the way, the sensei should proudly stand beside his student with a glad heart. He is likewise humbly compelled and called by his responsibility to the ryu to continue to live up to the principles and standards he impressed upon his student. His task of teaching is over. He is now a grandfather instead of a father.

Unfortunately, it is at this time--the time of a sensei’s highest calling to the ryu--that many fail. Instead of demonstrating confidence in themselves and pride in their students’ accomplishments they fall prey to vanity and insecurities of the spirit. The failing of a sensei now is usually associated with a perceived end of respect from the student, an end of respect that doesn’t actually exist. Frequently this problem manifests itself when the sensei attempts to reintroduce a strict student-teacher relationship that prevents the student from realizing his mature position of authority within the ryu. At this time some sensei perceive deviation from their own path as a students rejection of their teachings. In truth, some of a sensei’s teachings must be denied for a student to reach the highest levels of self-expression within the ryu. Some sensei are also unwilling to recognize that a deviation from their own teaching at this level is actually a manifestation of the student’s individuality and mature confidence. This confidence--it must be remembered-- was imparted by the sensei’s own teachings as part of the bargain between student and teacher. The sensei must remember his duty and charge as simply a member within the ryu. He must humble his heart and reacquaint himself with his own past as a student. This he must do to remain an effective leader of "the way."



Conclusion: White becomes black, becomes white again.

It is the calling of every member of the school to acknowledge his charge and regularly peer into the kamidana (household altar) mirror, the mirror that reflects undistorted truth. And to humbly ask the kami to assist him in viewing his own heart and motivations with a critical eye, to scrutinize that small voice that is the harbinger of vanity and rationalization. Only through the expression of truth can the process of shu-ha-ri successfully embrace student and teacher in the charge of passing the knowledge and wisdom of our school’s ancestors forward responsibly.



Yukiyoshi Takamura, 1986

 

[c2kenpo]

I think you can open a can or worms with this topic,

Forms as I have been taught them are designed to teach an idea and not be the principle itself. The first thing to do is yes learn the form in it's base format. From there you can begin to understand what the form teaches. AS time goes on I think every student eventually puts in his/her "self" into it. Making little adjustments in footwork and posture and stances, strikes, that make the form work for them wich injuries are a common adjustment (knees) wide kneel turns into a close kneel for me.

If everyone was the same body shape & size then yes we would only have one way of doing things with only one MA system. But our creators saw fit to give us diversity.

A form is a learning process from the begginning to the last one and the personal ones we create. Why, How, When, Where are the questions and what is the form teaching us? what is the forms principles? These are questions that if we can answer them then we understand the form and can then begin to put our "selfs" into it as long as we can explain those adjustments.

JMHO


Dave Gunzburg

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Don,

Nice post.
I believe what we are talking about is Shu Ha Ri.

I am familiar with what you are talking about, but the concept is really universal, is it not? In almost any culture of martial tradition I can think of, there is always a caveat along the lines of, "Try it my way until you not only know what I am trying to teach, but why I am teaching what I do and only then try to create something yourself."

Unfortunately, this seems to be the exception rather than the rule. Every street corner seems to be filled with ego monsters that after a little training declare that they "know" what they have learned and have gone off on their own path. I personally know only about enough to know just how much I still have yet to learn. It both humbles and inspires me just how much sheer mastery I have yet to see, the things I have yet to learn, the marrow I have yet to suck from the bones of those that have gone before me. I can't help but look at most McDojos and internet masters and laugh, but I relaize that compared with those I respect, I still have almost as much to go as the self proclaimed masters I laught at.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Don,

I couldn’t agree more. Every time I go to train with my teacher I realize how little I knew and can see I have so much more to learn…….I am always chasing the carrot and every once in a while I get a nibble of it…………with long dry spells in between.
I figure I train just as hard as everyone else and so I can’t help but fall off my bar stool laughing when someone that has trained about as many years as me, or sometimes less, says they are a “master” or some other “grand exalted pooh bah” rank.

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
I figure I train just as hard as everyone else and so I can’t help but fall off my bar stool laughing when someone that has trained about as many years as me, or sometimes less, says they are a “master or some other “grand exalted pooh bah rank.

That's the thing isn't it? We look at people who have no clue as to what they are doing because they have declared that they "know" something way before they are ready. Then, when we get to feel that we somehow "know" something we have been taught, the memories of how these idiots prance around haunt us and force us to go back and see if there is something we don't know.

I remember a quote, and I can't find it and have to go by memory, by Ayn Rand that goes, "nature, to be mastered, has to be understood." Anyone who knows Rand knows that she was not a person to loudly declare how little she knew. But even she understood that before you try to change things, you have to understand the "why" before you impose your own ego onto something.

We want to rely on nothing but ourselves instead of being mind numbed zombies following a master, but do we actually know when we are ready to strike out on our own or it is merely the tempting voices of the ego seeking to lead us off the path?

If that makes any sense. :shrug:

I guess I can sum it all up in the idea that you do not try to impose your will on the form. You try to suppress your preconcived notions and demons of ego and let the experiences of the masters before you mold you before you even think of fooling with the knowledge.

Of course, I may be totally wrong.

 

[tonbo]

I look at it this way (and this is also how I teach kata):

Learn the form *technically*. Move when you are told, how you are told, and lean the "whys" of the form. Go through the form (or pieces as you learn them) robotically for a while, just getting them down. Once you have all the moves in the form, then do it the "test way", i.e., the same generic way that all other students in the school are doing the form, as considered to be good technique for passing an evaluation/grading, etc.

Once you have learned the form technically, play with it a bit. Nothing fancy, just start imagining the attackers as they would be grabbing you in actual techniques.

After you are more advanced, start doing the form with different purposes in mind: ex. go through the form with the lowest stances you can, or focus on balance, hand/arm movement, work angles, etc. (i.e., work the "five animals").

Finally, after you have gotten more advanced, and are in the upper ranks, and have played with a few more variations, you can, and in my opinion, should, go all out and play with the form. See if you can see different applications in the form.....try doing it in different "styles" (can you do a karate form "Tai chi" style??)....play with the form as if it were an actual combat....slow some moves down and speed others up, as you might in a real conflict. In short, play with the form and make it come alive. Imagine that you have an audience, and that you will be somehow able to watch from outside your own body. Would you put people to sleep, or could they see the energy in your form?

Form can have a lot to teach, and a lot of ways to teach it. Yes, I believe you should play with the forms as you progress in them. After all, there are thousands of people who can do the same form you do, moving through it "technically"; that's how forms get passed down. However, when doing the form for *yourself*, it is YOUR form, and should reflect your personality and movement.

As always, just my 2 cents' worth.

Peace--

 

[paihequan]

Moving on, Mr. Roley, c2kenpo, Tonbo .... thank you for your replies. Some very interesting viewpoints worthy of great consideration.

I have a great deal to learn and your views certainly provide a great amount of wisdom and matter for future consideration.

Thank you for your time and your views.

:asian:

 

[fringe_dweller]

Removed
\QUOTE]

You were doing really well up until this point.... Whether or not you were what you said, you had handled yourself commendably. This comment could have been made by PM but you're most likely going to start another heated argument and send another thread trailing into the locked department. Stupid idea.

Respectfully,

 

[paihequan]

Sir,

I sincerely apologize for the above aspect of my post but I have cancelled my PM's because of Roberts messages to me. Sadly he seems intent on continuing to flame me and this was my way of stating that I would not enter into any such actions. I am sorry if it causes any offence.

Thank you for your advice, in retrospect I have since deleted that section of my post as it serves no other purpose than to lower myself and the board to a negative level. Once again thank you for your comments.

 

[Deathtrap101]

This is a good thread, it's reinforcing my faith in the value of kata.

 

[Matt Stone]

First, you learn the form the way it is taught.

Then, you learn the techniques contained within it, either by dissecting it and researching yourself, or by having some, part or all of it given to you.

Then, you play with the techniques, run the form fast and slow, make the movements feel natural (not "do them naturally," there's a difference and it's a big one). Eventually the form becomes "yours."

Then, when you do it, you fall into the form, and if you are lucky, eventually, the form "does you."

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[paihequan]

Yiliquan1:

Great post! that's exactly what I was getting at. Thank you!:asian:

 

[Don Roley]

paihequan,
This thread is not about how bad a person RyuShiKan is. Please keep it on topic instead of your constant digs at him. If you have troubles with PMs and the like, then forward them to the administrators. I, for one, am getting tired of your constant attacks on him.

I ask you to again redouble your efforts to reform yourself from your past behavior of lying, betraying others and causing trouble on other forums. After what you did to people that RyuShiKan admires, you can expect him to not feel warm and fuzzy towards you. But it was not he but you who is starting to cast stones in this thread. Please stop these complaints that attack his charecter and get back on subject. Do not bring in other subjectsin passing if you do not want the thread to go off in another direction.

This subject is about the form and putting yourself in it. Let us keep it that way and put aside your comments about RyuShiKan.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Ok....
Enough.

Next snide comment wins a vacation. That also applies to several other threads involving the same folks...

I suggest this thread stay focused on the original topic.

 

[Jill666]

My (limited) experience is that when you live with a form for awhile, you get past the stage of learning the motions, then visualizing the applications, to being able to do the form without conscious thought, and it becomes yours throught the power and energy and intention your express when you do the form.

My take on it is that you do not need to change the form to make it yours if you truly have the form, unless there is nothing in you to express through the motion.

 

[deacondad]

I had to adjust the forms I have learned over the years due to an injury to my elbow. I dislocated my elbow and now only have about 75% mobility in my right arm. Since I don't have full rotation of my arm nor am I able to fully extend it I have to "change" the form to fit my limitations.

 

[Jill666]

I was addressing the idea of changing the form for other reasons- not physical limitations. I went back to the first post and it seems that was the threads' intent.

As for having physical limitations, that is a whole different ball of wax.

Interesting problem. One of my classmates has a fused, partailly grown arm due to a stroke in utero. Another is missing an arm (a teenager/refugee from Croatia). They both have adapted the forms they can do, sometimes substituting a kick, depending on the application meant in the form. A few forms they don't do at all. They have a couple of one-armed empty hand and weapon forms (sai, kama) that they worked on together.

 

[Matt Stone]

In Yiliquan's Baxingquan (Eight Shape Form), the strikes and kicks that are "standard" not only can be substituted, but are intended to be substituted for other strikes and kicks from similar categories...

We categorize our strikes and kicks (e.g. thrusting strikes can be punches, spearhands, digital strikes, etc.), and the Shape Forms can be applied with selections from those categories. It changes the applications of the forms slightly depending on the nature of the change in strikes, but the forms are designed specifically to still function regardless of the changes made...

So a reverse punch, front snap kick, hammerfist could change into a spear hand, front thrust kick, knife hand, or a palm heel thrust, stopping foot kick and backwards elbow...

But the standard "show room" form is what is adhered to for teaching and testing. What you do in your own personal growth and practice is just that... Personal.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: