Putting more into it

[drop bear]

Ok so Google as always has the answers, like I said in my first post. I looked at a few studies and sights. You can Google it yourself like I did.
"Optimal practice time to learn a skill"
The takeaway I got was...
Even for top world class performers across many topics,
Mindful "deliberate practice" was the key. Mindless practice was counter productive as it in grains bad habits. Mindful practice of one hour sessions totaling no more than 4 hours a day is best. The greatest benifits were gained in the first 20 minutes and would decline the longer practice was done.

Here is a thing. Mindfull practice takes conditioning. One of the reasons I do fitness. So I am not that guy standing in the corner getting his breath back.

Sparring is evident of that. If I do ten rounds I will be better than if I do two.

 

[Blindside]

I don't want to misrepresent myself. I have always put in more time than everyone else that was training. If the standard training was twice a week I was there five, if people were at the dojo for 2 hours, I was there four hours. I will do more investigation into this, but something tells me that the brain is most efficient at learning a skill with XX hours repeated every day and that to double those hours a day would not shorten the time it takes to learn that skill.
But like was said the way the time is used is important.

There may be some optimal time, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't continue to learn, it just wouldn't be as efficient. But from your experience did your added practice time allow you to progress in your chosen martial art faster than your classmates?

 

[hoshin1600]

There may be some optimal time, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't continue to learn, it just wouldn't be as efficient. But from your experience did your added practice time allow you to progress in your chosen martial art faster than your classmates?

My opinion is that more practice time is a factor when it comes to improvement but not a stand alone metric. I feel other factors are more important. As for myself when I first started the defining factor for me was that I kept a note book that I would write everything down in. I found out many years layer that this was a common trait many successful people in their respective field. A second important factor was my determination and self confidence. Natural ability plays a major role. My own personal journey is unique in that I was 13 years old working out with full adults. I don't think I was any better than anyone else else. But I did out last everyone. so I got better because everyone else quit and im still going. I am not a competitive sport martial artist so I may have a different view point than those who are.

 

[PiedmontChun]

I don't practice JKD but I imagine this is a fairly universal thing.....
There is sort of a "law of diminishing returns" that comes into play wherein there is no longer an equal correlation between time / effort invested and visible progress as you ramp it up. This point can be different for different individuals. Some people can train 3 hours daily and see incredible progress; for some individuals they would not gain much more than had they just stopped at 1-2 hours daily, to make an example. The brain can only adapt so much so quickly, and the body is only capable of so much as well. I would imagine Bruce Lee, as well as others, were / are elite in the sense their minds and bodies could adapt and maximize their training.

Ask someone to punch a bag 500 times per day, every day. Its hard but gets easier and instills the mechanics of punching, dissipating force, etc. Then ask that person to punch a bag 1000 times instead, even if ramped up gradually...... they are more likely to have their technique go to $&!! as they push harder, rather than continue to make progress in the same manner that have made previously. The correlation between work put in and progress narrows as it is ramped up.

That said, I am jealous of a fellow classmate of mine who can make it to class every weekday, and even early for private instruction. He has surpassed 2-3 year students within 1 year (in skill, not grade) with steady growth and not the same plateaus and smaller steps older students had to break thru.

 

[Orange Lightning]

I don't practice JKD but I imagine this is a fairly universal thing.....
There is sort of a "law of diminishing returns" that comes into play wherein there is no longer an equal correlation between time / effort invested and visible progress as you ramp it up. This point can be different for different individuals. Some people can train 3 hours daily and see incredible progress; for some individuals they would not gain much more than had they just stopped at 1-2 hours daily, to make an example. The brain can only adapt so much so quickly, and the body is only capable of so much as well. I would imagine Bruce Lee, as well as others, were / are elite in the sense their minds and bodies could adapt and maximize their training.

Ask someone to punch a bag 500 times per day, every day. Its hard but gets easier and instills the mechanics of punching, dissipating force, etc. Then ask that person to punch a bag 1000 times instead, even if ramped up gradually...... they are more likely to have their technique go to $&!! as they push harder, rather than continue to make progress in the same manner that have made previously. The correlation between work put in and progress narrows as it is ramped up.

That said, I am jealous of a fellow classmate of mine who can make it to class every weekday, and even early for private instruction. He has surpassed 2-3 year students within 1 year (in skill, not grade) with steady growth and not the same plateaus and smaller steps older students had to break thru.

Something to be said about this diminishing returns thing. It might be obvious, but I feel the need to point it out.

If I'm doing some exercise, benchpress, squats, running, whatever, it's not the initial moments that matter the most. I need to get past these initial sets to get to the hard part that will really push me further.
Obviously, I'm going to reach a point where I can, technically speaking, continue the exercise, but I'm asking for injury or a huge recovery time. But until that apex of fatigue is reached, I wouldn't get nearly as much out of it as I could. I would say that until that apex is reached, it's actually the opposite of diminishing returns.

Since we don't want to dilute technique with bad form from fatigue (alliteration!) might time be better spent doing exercise instead of practice to push ourselves past that physical apex where skill starts to diminish, if so desired?

 

[PiedmontChun]

Something to be said about this diminishing returns thing. It might be obvious, but I feel the need to point it out.

If I'm doing some exercise, benchpress, squats, running, whatever, it's not the initial moments that matter the most. I need to get past these initial sets to get to the hard part that will really push me further.
Obviously, I'm going to reach a point where I can, technically speaking, continue the exercise, but I'm asking for injury or a huge recovery time. But until that apex of fatigue is reached, I wouldn't get nearly as much out of it as I could. I would say that until that apex is reached, it's actually the opposite of diminishing returns.

Since we don't want to dilute technique with bad form from fatigue (alliteration!) might time be better spent doing exercise instead of practice to push ourselves past that physical apex where skill starts to diminish, if so desired?

Valid point and question. But martial arts is more than just physical challenge, so that is only one limitation that presents itself. There are brain pathways being formed thru repititon, muscle memory being developed, touch reflex (expecially within my Wing Chun experience), etc. Hard to produce data to prove it, but it seems like your body can only do so much so quickly when it comes to some of those other barriers. A lot of it iss mental, or the will, even. My ability to keep and execute proper form dimishes greatly at my limits, and when form calls apart the practice falls apart (with the exception of maybe heavy sparring, where you learn to just keep pushing no matter what happens with your form and structure).
If martial arts were more like power lifting or running, then yes it would be as simple as that last 5-10% at or near our body's peak, or attempting to push past our limits would be what produces gains.

 

[Orange Lightning]

Valid point and question. But martial arts is more than just physical challenge, so that is only one limitation that presents itself. There are brain pathways being formed thru repititon, muscle memory being developed, touch reflex (expecially within my Wing Chun experience), etc. Hard to produce data to prove it, but it seems like your body can only do so much so quickly when it comes to some of those other barriers. A lot of it iss mental, or the will, even. My ability to keep and execute proper form dimishes greatly at my limits, and when form calls apart the practice falls apart (with the exception of maybe heavy sparring, where you learn to just keep pushing no matter what happens with your form and structure).
If martial arts were more like power lifting or running, then yes it would be as simple as that last 5-10% at or near our body's peak, or attempting to push past our limits would be what produces gains.

Agreed. There is only so much your mind can absorb in a certain period of time.

This didn't occur to me until just now. Should exercise (weight lifting etc.) be kept on a different day from martial arts to get the most possible muscle memory ingrained in one day? Or do you think that sort of exercise wouldn't make a difference in that sense?

 

[Blindside]

Agreed. There is only so much your mind can absorb in a certain period of time.

This didn't occur to me until just now. Should exercise (weight lifting etc.) be kept on a different day from martial arts to get the most possible muscle memory ingrained in one day? Or do you think that sort of exercise wouldn't make a difference in that sense?

I think it matters, my workouts are on different days than my classes. If you are too physically exhausted to practice your technique properly, or tired enough that you cannot get good reps in then your practice isn't going to be very valuable.

 

[Orange Lightning]

I think it matters, my workouts are on different days than my classes. If you are too physically exhausted to practice your technique properly, or tired enough that you cannot get good reps in then your practice isn't going to be very valuable.

It made sense to me in the way that technique will be degraded when tired. Even though I've experienced the issue, I forgot to consider that a lack of energy will slow down my reps and sets. Supersetting really goes out the window doesn't it?

 

[PhotonGuy]

Bruce Lee was SO exceptional and SO singleminded over his learning, his preparation, his philosophy and his physical training I would wonder if OP is not only 'not for everybody' and but not for most people???

The point Im making is that the harder somebody works and the more time and effort they put into it, the faster they're going to learn and the faster they're going to accumulate knowledge and skill. Bruce Lee is an extreme example just like Bobby Fischer with Chess and most people are not going to take it to anywhere near his level but the bottom line is that the more you put into it the more you get out of it and you get it faster within limits. As its been said on this thread there comes a point when you hit diminishing returns. Training 100 hours a week is really overdoing it and you will probably end up hurting yourself and it will be detrimental.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The point Im making is that the harder somebody works and the more time and effort they put into it, the faster they're going to learn and the faster they're going to accumulate knowledge and skill.

Not necessarily. There are some people who will just never get it.

 

[Blindside]

Not necessarily. There are some people who will just never get it.

Of course you can find an exception to the rule, but in general I would agree with the statement, those who put more time and effort in the faster they are going to learn. Are you really saying that this is an unusual statement?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Of course you can find an exception to the rule, but in general I would agree with the statement, those who put more time and effort in the faster they are going to learn. Are you really saying that this is an unusual statement?

No. I am saying exactly what I wrote.
Worded as a possibility or even a probability, it's perfectly correct. Written (as it is in the OP) as an absolute, it is incorrect.
The point of diminishing returns is not really an exception. It applies to everybody. Exactly where that point lies varies widely, but it nonetheless exists for all of us.

 

[drop bear]

Something to be said about this diminishing returns thing. It might be obvious, but I feel the need to point it out.

If I'm doing some exercise, benchpress, squats, running, whatever, it's not the initial moments that matter the most. I need to get past these initial sets to get to the hard part that will really push me further.
Obviously, I'm going to reach a point where I can, technically speaking, continue the exercise, but I'm asking for injury or a huge recovery time. But until that apex of fatigue is reached, I wouldn't get nearly as much out of it as I could. I would say that until that apex is reached, it's actually the opposite of diminishing returns.

Since we don't want to dilute technique with bad form from fatigue (alliteration!) might time be better spent doing exercise instead of practice to push ourselves past that physical apex where skill starts to diminish, if so desired?

If you were to compete. You will generally get to that point within ten seconds.

So training fatigued may get you used to fighting hard.

Otherwise you don't have to have poor technique just because you are tired. You can still be mindful of it.

 

[drop bear]

Not necessarily. There are some people who will just never get it.

And there are talented guys who wont be any good because they don't work hard.

 

[Jenna]

The point Im making is that the harder somebody works and the more time and effort they put into it, the faster they're going to learn and the faster they're going to accumulate knowledge and skill. Bruce Lee is an extreme example just like Bobby Fischer with Chess and most people are not going to take it to anywhere near his level but the bottom line is that the more you put into it the more you get out of it and you get it faster within limits. As its been said on this thread there comes a point when you hit diminishing returns. Training 100 hours a week is really overdoing it and you will probably end up hurting yourself and it will be detrimental.

Perhaps. You say earlier "Well its not for everybody and there are limits as to just how much you can cram".. I am interested to know for comparison what would be those limits for you personally? I am also interested to know what other part or parts of your own life would you sacrifice in order to reach this more rapidly advanced state?

 

[PhotonGuy]

The point of diminishing returns is not really an exception. It applies to everybody. Exactly where that point lies varies widely, but it nonetheless exists for all of us.

Sure it does, that's why I said there's limits as to how hard you can work and how fast you can learn before it becomes detrimental.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Perhaps. You say earlier "Well its not for everybody and there are limits as to just how much you can cram".. I am interested to know for comparison what would be those limits for you personally? I am also interested to know what other part or parts of your own life would you sacrifice in order to reach this more rapidly advanced state?

For me? I usually train at least a couple hours each day. Sometimes I train as much as five or six hours a day but I found that sometimes I improve more when I take extra time off after a hard workout. There was this one time when I threw over 10,000 kicks in one day and it took me about 13 hours but that was just a one time challenge, not something I do on a regular basis. Training as much as I do is not something a beginner should do since a beginner wouldn't be ready for it and they would be going beyond their limits. You can raise your limits but you've got to work up to it, I've been doing martial arts for more than a score.
As for how much else I would sacrifice that would depend. For me martial arts is a full time job but for somebody else working a different full time job they wouldn't be able to sacrifice as much. How much a person will sacrifice depends on factors such as their situation and how much passion they have for the martial arts.

 

[Jenna]

For me? I usually train at least a couple hours each day. Sometimes I train as much as five or six hours a day but I found that sometimes I improve more when I take extra time off after a hard workout. There was this one time when I threw over 10,000 kicks in one day and it took me about 13 hours but that was just a one time challenge, not something I do on a regular basis. Training as much as I do is not something a beginner should do since a beginner wouldn't be ready for it and they would be going beyond their limits. You can raise your limits but you've got to work up to it, I've been doing martial arts for more than a score.
As for how much else I would sacrifice that would depend. For me martial arts is a full time job but for somebody else working a different full time job they wouldn't be able to sacrifice as much. How much a person will sacrifice depends on factors such as their situation and how much passion they have for the martial arts.

That sound like you have a balanced approach.. is good! what would happen if you went beyond your limits? I have heard it said limits are arbitrary constructs of the mind??

 

[PhotonGuy]

That sound like you have a balanced approach.. is good! what would happen if you went beyond your limits? I have heard it said limits are arbitrary constructs of the mind??

The idea is to go beyond your limits but you don't want to push it too hard. Somebody who is just starting out wouldn't want to try training 100 hours a week or they might kill themselves. As a matter of fact I can't imagine anybody training 100 hours a week on a regular basis, that would leave less than 7 hours in a 24 hour period as free time to eat, sleep, ect.