Push-ups or techniques?

[Brandon Fisher]

10 to 15 minutes tops on warmups. Strength training should be done but not during class that is the indviduals responsibility. Especially considering that each person is different.

 

[Carol]

My old school always had a warmup period, but what we did for warmups always varried. Sometimes it was calesthenics, sometimes it was bag work, sometimes it was running, and sometimes it was techniques along with cardio (run to the opposite side of the mat and do {name of tech} then run back).

Forcing myself to concentrate through my tiredness has been an exercise that IMO is quite practical. Plus, it has helped my mental discipline.

In addition, I've learned a bit from doing calesthenics with the rest of the class....such as doing pushups from the knee in the beginning because I wasn't strong enough to do many pushups from the toes. I've had a gym membership for about 20 years and I had never learned that from being at the gym or working out with a personal trainer.

:idunno: IMO I think the PT is a good thing.

 

[Flatlander]

but there is an old saying, "there is being in shape and there is being in kung fu shape".

I'm in agreement with nearly everything you're posting here. However, I believe you said upthread your classes were quite long - 3 hours or something? What I think the primary disagreement here is within the context of a shorter class.

I was curious about how everyone feels about long bouts of calisthenics in a class before the actual training starts. My wife has been having arguments about this with the instructors from her former (now sister) school. They have two 90 minute classes each week. Of that time, they spend a minimum of 30 minutes doing PT(often times it's more like 45).

If I'm there for an hour and a half, I want more than 45 minutes of instruction, bag work, sparring, drilling, etc. I want an hour and a half. I'll do the rest on my own time.

However, I can also respect that there are going to be instructors out there who insist on training only people whom are completely committed to being the very best they can. In that regard, perhaps they'll only accept people who will commit to paying for supervised calisthenic times, thus enabling the instructor some level of surety that the student will be able to perform at a higher level.

Perhaps this is more a question, though, of responsibility. Does the responsibility for a student's ability to achieve their highest potential lie with the student or the teacher?

A chemestry expert didn't become so by only sitting in chemestry classes reading the periodical table. Your example is flawed, but I would say yes you do need clculus to perform true chemestry. Its flawed because your trying to make it one demensional and its not. The physical application of learned techniques takes physical activity so you can't remove physical fitness from the learning process. I'm not talking about running 5 miles in class, but a 20 - 30 minute warmup is certainly not going to take too much time to learn something.

I mainly agree with this. I just think that a mathematician ought teach calculus and the chemist teach chemistry. Particularly at more advanced levels.
30 minutes isn't unreasonable if it includes stretching, and perhaps rolling, leaping, drills, and such relevant items.

Its not the pushups or the "ripped chest" they give that is the benefit in my opinion, its the exhausting of the chest and arm muscles before having to use them to perform martial behaviors that gives benefit.

Measurably more benefit than not having worked out to this degree immediately before having to use them? Why?

 

[7starmantis]

I'm not condoning being out of shape and having absolutely no muscle/endurance at all. Shoot, even if you take the "flight" rather than "fight" path, you better be able to run faster than your opponent LOL

True, very true!

So, what happens when you get older? You no longer have speed, your strength has probably diminished, and you won't have as much endurance. What you do have is technique. I've met -alot- of older guys I'd not want to fight. Its not that they could run faster, jump higher, strike harder, but they had an understanding of the art (in my case bujinkan) that does not require you to be the strongest on the block to defeat your foe. Alot of times in my class I get told "relax" rather than trying to muscle through a technique. You know what? When I'm relaxed, the technique sure works alot better. This is probably not consistent w/ other arts (boxing, muay thai, ect), but I've found that to be true in my training. Some of the less strong people in my class still had strong technique.

Ok, I agree with you to a point here. First I'll say that my system is principle driven rather than technique driven so I would say all you have is your principles. However, not all you have is your techniques. If you have at one point had endurance, speed, strength, etc then you have learned to dynamically apply your techniques. So its not just a learned technique that you have but an alive understanding of how to actively apply said techniques. Thats my point in the heavy working out part of training. Its not to increase any body's endurance or stamina (20 minutes isn't enough for that anyway) but to put the learning of techniques in the right environment and include the needed "pre-reqs" to really learn the technique and how to apply it. I believe there is a huge difference in learning a technique and learning how to apply a technique.

Your right, the older guys had an understanding of the art, that in my opinion can only come from applying it in many different situations and the abilities that tie together to create a true understanding of a technique must also be present. I practice 7 star mantis kung fu which is principle driven and relys not on strength but on principle. In fact, we are heavily taiji-ish in our applications and fighting. Hearing "relax" is a common occurance in our school. So I understand your point about the technique over strength. But I'm not speaking of strength in determining the technique. I'm talking about stamina and endurance and learning how to apply a technique under various conditions. I just think there are millions of variables to learning to effectively fight (or defend yourself which is considered fighting) and among them is working out. That being said I simply think its a mistake to remove hard workouts and warmups from a martial arts class, even in styles that do not require strength to perfrom their techniques. I practice Tai Chi and still believe the same way about warming up and working out, its simply a part of the objective and so should be part of the training.....just my own personal opinion. Others agree or disagree at will. I will say though that strong technique comes from a combination of many things, not just learning how to do the moves. Take the same person who is not strong but has strong technique, make them fight for their lives for a few minutes, introduce all the effects of adrenaline etc and lets see how their technique is then. Thats all I'm saying, you need to address all the issues of self defense fighting.

Exactly. You have prerequisites for chemistry. Relating this to martial arts, what are the prerequisites? What are the set of skills you should pick up on your own vs pick up in class? Certain exercises may be great for your style. I have no problem with that. A boxer wants to lift weights while training, or a TKD person wants to do 100 kicks. That works! More power to you! I don't expect the same from an aikidoka though.

Well in your example of university is the goal (effective fighting) the chemestry class or the graduation and receiving the diploma? There are many different needed skills for martial arts and without learning them together you must try and apply them together for the first time in a real situation where mistakes may mean your life.

Life is sure dynamic isn't it <img alt="" title="Smilie" border="0"> Props to those who develop in that fashion. Boxers train different than aikidoka because they need to be in different types of shape to effectively execute their goals. I agree that fitness can help you overcome alot of obsticles, but its not the final answer in things. Would you rather fighting someone that can run 10 miles and bench press 300 lbs or some shihan w/ buckets of knowledge on how to make your life miserable? Granted, its great if he is in shape, but I'd wager on the shihan over the muscle man.

Actually I would rather fight both of those guys than the one who runs 10 miles (I could care less about weights) and actively trains his martial arts knowledge with physical training. Knowledge is useless without the bodies ability to perform the needed task. If I could run 10 miles and was attacked by this shihan that couldn't, I could just out run him

I agree different styles require different levels of "shape" but there is a base level of physical learning that needs to take place, in my opinion.

then you hold no value in an art like Aikido? I'm not condoning just learning a technique mentally. You have to apply it of course. Thats why we train.

Let me explain my art a bit more. I would actually say what I train is "softer" or more relient on others energy than even aikido is. I just think the higher levels of endurance and stamina only serve to increase the effectiveness of these types of techniques.

Art specific, as I've mentioned. One group will train differently than another. I'm not saying a sniper sits around drinking coke all day <img alt="" title="Smilie" border="0"> Of course they are out, getting in shape. I've got all respect for those guys. Just requires a different set of skills when sniping vs tactical.

Yes but those different set of skills are honed and advanced by each other. Also learning your set of skills under pressure is allways a benefit to the skill set and increasing the "non needed" skills still increases the needed skills so they are actually related, ie the heartrate issue where you need a low heart rate, but the best way to achieve a lowered steady heart rate under heavy pressure and adrenaline is to be in great cardiovascualr shape as well as having practice staying relaxed under the pressure of physical confrontation etc. So while the skill of running is not needed in the sniper skill set, learnign to shoot well before, during, and after a run is needed and is used in training. Also, the benefits running gives are benefits to the shooting skill set. While running alone will give you some benefits, running while training to shoot gives you the understanding and ability to perform your needed behavior under various stressful situations.

Fighting is physically confronting someone. Its quite possible to diffuse a situation w/out coming to blows. Thats survival. Hopefully you can diffuse before having to fight. Thats my point..

Hopefully, but when attacked for no reason which happens alot (or for a reason) you may not have the option of a peacfull exit. Survival covers many different skill sets, not just defusing a situation. Your thinking only about situations that can be defussed, there are mnay that cannot. Having someone attack you who might be under the influence of mind altering drugs or simply crazy with rage or something similar is most certainly a situation of survival. There are drugs that hinder the feelings of pain and give strength....what then? When the arm lock doesn't work and you go to the break and the break just pisses him off even more? Forrest Griffin of UFC fame fought and knocked out an opponent after having his arm broken in a fight....that was just a ring fight, not even life or death. You must consider these types of situations or your "self defense" is lacking.

2 scenarios:

1: Someone approaches you with a knife/gun, wants your wallet. Take it out. Give it to him. Go home. Cancel your credit cards.

2: Someone approaches you with a knife/gun, wants your wallet. You attack. Someone gets injured. Maybe you, maybe him, maybe both. Maybe someone dies.

I know its not always so cut and dry, but its just a different approach to solving a problem. Even in scenario 1, you may still get attacked. Life is dynamic. Just one scenario of many, I know...

Well if we are seriously talking about survival...in either scenario I have pulled my concealed handgun and either defused the situation or dropped the attacker before reaching me or my family. Sure the situations may change and if I was unable to defend myself I would for sure hand up my wallet, but there comes a time that they may still attack you, at that point you better be well versed in survival fighting which would include very physical activity and endurance as well as a million other variables. I never believe there is a time to give up and accept defeat in a life or death situation. I'm not suggesting attacking someone who pulls a gun of knife on you but what if they attack you with it after you were complient?

Of course you need to move your body around if it comes to a physical attack. However, if its simply a matter of the strongest/fastest, then you better be careful! Someone out there is in better shape than you! I'm not saying being out of shape is fine, I've said that a few times. However, if your art is based on muscle more than technique, you will inevitably come up w/ someone bigger and badder than you!

Exactly my point. That is why my system is not resting on who is faster or stronger, but if skill and technique is even you better be faster and stronger. Also, the physical fitness will only serve to enhance your ability to apply these types of technqiues. Being "faster and stronger" and better skilled will even give you better odds of being victorious.

one of the best workouts I got was when I was testing. Had to do techniques quickly and often for about 2 hours. Great workout! Not only was I applying techniques, but I was getting some cardio done. Doing 100 pushups may get you stronger, but its not (stictly speaking) the equivelant of punching. I'd much rather do a workout w/ technique than something I could easily be doing at home. It would be fun to have classes like that more often... That I would enjoy.

See, I warned you guys about my rants! This is exactly what I'm talking about. The workout must include techniques. We never do more than 30 pushups in a workout, many times not doing any. I would say that a test is suppoed to push you but I allways try to make my workouts harder than tests...just my personal training habits. This is the type of warmup I'm talking about doing for the 20 or 30 minutes. Sure you work into it with stretching and such, but this is the key.


I guess I'm really off topic here, sorry. I new if I started a rant I would go off on a tangent! The thread was originally about the initial warmup and I would still say I like the idea of a warmup at the begining. I am bothered by the mentality that you must receive a certain amount of material or a certain amount of "learning time" in one class. I did a whole class this morning learning nothing new just refining many of my techniques. This mentality implies that there is nothing to be learned from these "warmups" or workouts, I believe that to be false, if technique or art specific principels are involved you learn alot.

Sorry for the long rants....

7sm

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Hey 7sm, it could have been worse. It could have been an XS rant.

Jeff

 

[Haze]

I feel the need for warm ups and drills but to spend half the class doing circut training like bag then pushups then jumping jacks then situps back to bag work, This is not MA training. My training and teaching shoulf give one the knowledge and desire to get/keep oneself in shape. I/we as teachers should not spend our time making students get in shape. Bottom line, come to test and fail because you could not get through it physicaly, maybe you will train harder on your own conditioning.

We get near brown belt and our students are going to have to run, they know it and we can not spend class time getting them ready for it.

I say warm them up, stretch them out and ino technique/kata, grappling or what ever it is you have planned for the session.

 

[zDom]

Forcing myself to concentrate through my tiredness has been an exercise that IMO is quite practical. Plus, it has helped my mental discipline.

Exactly. One thing my instructor likes to remind us of is: Predators seek easy prey.

If you ever have to defend yourself, it probably won't be when you are feeling good. You may be hot and tired, or cold and stiff, or exhausted from working in the yard. Techniques are MUCH easier to remember and execute while fresh and warmed up, ready for action.

Try that same technique when your brain is fighting for its share of oxygen.


Another point to consider is:

A good instructor is looking out for the well-being of his/her students, and is responsible for their safety.

This may not apply to all martial arts, but hapkido as we train it is very intense. If you don't have a certain level of core strength and flexibility, the chance for injury from training technique goes up.

I'm not going to be the type of instructor who just shrugs his shoulders and says "Well, they should have done their abdominal workout at home! It's not MY fault!"

I'd rather make SURE they are ready for technique by regularly doing calisthenics with them and keeping an eye on their progress.

Also, just to clarify, I'm just saying calisthenics *are* an important part of the curriculum.

Some of the best workouts I've had have been doing 1,000 kicks, or several hundred "fits" (throwing practice where you lift them up, then set them down instead of completing the throw).

But then, I guess all folks are different. I'd rather get it ALL at the dojang in a couple 2 or 3 hour sessions than spend 1 hour at the dojang, another hour at the weight lifting club, and another hour running around a track. Or sitting at home doing situps all by myself (yawn!).

 

[matt.m]

Actually pop has said for years that you are most likely going to have to defend yourself on your absolute worst day. You and I are on the same page regarding physical fitness Scott.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I do agree someone that is truly training should be in good shape and I am more then happy to help someone train for strength and endurence. But, not in a group class.