7starmantis said:
When it comes to survival and defending your life or the life of a loved one, being able to do it faster, stronger, or for longer than someone else plays a major major role. This is my biggest issue, everyone thinks they can learn a technique and be proficient at it without working on it from every possible scenario and such. Everyone seems to want to seperate speed, strength, endurance from effective fighting. Thats simply not possible and to do so is just unrealistic. What if the person who attacks you is faster, stronger, and has more endurance than you? People seem to think their perfectly learned techniques will overcome all these issues, thats simply not the case. Ok, say it does...you go home...say it doesn't...what then?
I'm not condoning being out of shape and having absolutely no muscle/endurance at all. Shoot, even if you take the "flight" rather than "fight" path, you better be able to run faster than your opponent LOL
So, what happens when you get older? You no longer have speed, your strength has probably diminished, and you won't have as much endurance. What you do have is technique. I've met -alot- of older guys I'd not want to fight. Its not that they could run faster, jump higher, strike harder, but they had an understanding of the art (in my case bujinkan) that does not require you to be the strongest on the block to defeat your foe. Alot of times in my class I get told "relax" rather than trying to muscle through a technique. You know what? When I'm relaxed, the technique sure works alot better. This is probably not consistent w/ other arts (boxing, muay thai, ect), but I've found that to be true in my training. Some of the less strong people in my class still had strong technique.
Yet your still required to know and use the calculus in the chemestry class. In some cases it may even be a pre requisite class. Now niether of these are proper examples as they do not deal with the same issue. Do you need to know how to handle glassware in the chemestry lab? Do they go over that in every chemestry lab. What about lab safety, do you have to learn and practice a certain routine of safety everytime you come to lab, you certainly do, its part of what you need to perfrom the needed behavior correctly.
Exactly. You have prerequisites for chemistry. Relating this to martial arts, what are the prerequisites? What are the set of skills you should pick up on your own vs pick up in class? Certain exercises may be great for your style. I have no problem with that. A boxer wants to lift weights while training, or a TKD person wants to do 100 kicks. That works! More power to you! I don't expect the same from an aikidoka though.
To a degree, yes I am. I dont "pump iron" at all, but I do run, do body weight, etc. Your still viewing this as a process to create physical fitness, its not so. Its a part of physical training. A 20 - 30 minute warmup is not going to increase physical fitness or give you any real level of fitness, so that viewpoint of the warmup is moot. Its not there to increase or create physical fitness, its there to help learn martial skill. You cannot learn a martial art or a martial skill without the things that are martial in nature such as kicks, punches, cardio work etc. Just not going to happen. As far as self defense, if the attacker is in good shape, has some fighting skill, what happens when your self defense technique doesn't work too well and you still have to deal with the attacker? Fighting is a strange thing, endurance, cardio fitness, and mental stamina can overcome many many techniques and even injury or trauma. I've seen people fight off several attackers with bullets in their body, odd fixtures impailing them, etc. To ignore the conditioning of the body for fighting is a serious mistake. Learning self defense is only partly academic. You must also learn and teach your body to perform the needed behaviors associated with defending yourself. Working out in the gym is simply not the same thing as conditioning you body for fighting. the cardio and such can transfer to a point, but there is an old saying, "there is being in shape and there is being in kung fu shape". Its simply different muscle groups, movements, reactions, etc.
Life is sure dynamic isn't it
Props to those who develop in that fashion. Boxers train different than aikidoka because they need to be in different types of shape to effectively execute their goals. I agree that fitness can help you overcome alot of obsticles, but its not the final answer in things. Would you rather fighting someone that can run 10 miles and bench press 300 lbs or some shihan w/ buckets of knowledge on how to make your life miserable? Granted, its great if he is in shape, but I'd wager on the shihan over the muscle man.
Well, maybe its all a matter of intent, but I for one am wanting to destroy a person if they make me believe my life or my family's life is in danger. Its a grave mistake to assume that you can learn a technique mentally and then be able to apply it to all possible scenarios and situations. Its also a grave mistake to assume any technique can and will difuse any self defense situation and allow you to calmly walk home. If your attacked and your life is in danger you may be able to difuse it quickly, but you may also be in for the fight of your life....I dont place odds on which one I will come across first.
then you hold no value in an art like Aikido? I'm not condoning just learning a technique mentally. You have to apply it of course. Thats why we train.
Ok, lets use this example. A sniper needs a lowered heart beat, which means good cardiovascular health....how do you think one gets that? You could say running is not needed when "sniping" but yet we see that it is most certainly needed and the benefits are shared. I dont think you are trying to say that tactical shooting doesn't require hitting the target or hitting the exact mark. That is not true and having a slower heart rate and steady hands is most certainly a benefit to a tactical shooter....again one doesn't get those benefits by target practice. Now a shooting course may not have you out running miles in the sun, but there are many that have you running with your weapon to get you to a certain state and then requiring you to shoot. This is objective specific PT which is exactly what a 20 to 30 minute warmup in a martial arts class is.
Art specific, as I've mentioned. One group will train differently than another. I'm not saying a sniper sits around drinking coke all day
Of course they are out, getting in shape. I've got all respect for those guys. Just requires a different set of skills when sniping vs tactical.
I'm really confused by this statement. I guess this is where our training differs. I just dont see one defensive manuver saving anyone from a serious life or death self defense situation. Plus, what happens if you do remove yourself from the situation and he comes back at you again? Its simply unrealistic to put faith in any one manuver or technique, especially without the base of cardiovascular endurance and stamina. To not take multiple attacks on your opponent or to try some type of non violent defusing of a violent self defense situation is suicide in my book. You must remove the threat of violence and that includes lots more than one manuver. The one hit one kill mentality is and has been proven wrong.
Not interested in a "one hit one kill" mentality. Nor am in interested in learning just one defensive technique. Real life confrontation is going to be dynamic. Situations will change. Numbers will change. Thats one reason I train. Can one technique diffuse something? Quite possible. Might require more. Me being able to run further than my opponent(s) or bench press more may be important, but knowledge of the opponents body and my art are equally important. For instance, it takes very little force to break a knee. Very little torque to induce great pain in the joints. What if the person pulls back suddenly? Transition to a different technique.
Personally, I've been in some bad situations. However, I've never had it come to blows. Being rational and being able to diffuse a situation verbally often gets you out of trouble. I'm not one to leap in fists first if someone is upset. Sometimes that can't happen, so thats why you train physically.
I disagree 100%. In martial arts when discussing violent physical attacks, survival is most deffinitely physical. I dont care if I have the label of "great fighter" or not either, I only care about taking myself home safely and in one piece. I would love to go through life without having to fight, sadly that has allready come to pass in my life. Its not about discipline or being drilled. Its about learning objective specifc skills in objective specifc environments. Its not the pushups or the "ripped chest" they give that is the benefit in my opinion, its the exhausting of the chest and arm muscles before having to use them to perform martial behaviors that gives benefit. How can you learn speed that applies to fighting if you never work on speed in fighting? You simply can't seperate the academic portion and the physical portion of martial arts.
Fighting is physically confronting someone. Its quite possible to diffuse a situation w/out coming to blows. Thats survival. Hopefully you can diffuse before having to fight. Thats my point..
2 scenarios:
1: Someone approaches you with a knife/gun, wants your wallet. Take it out. Give it to him. Go home. Cancel your credit cards.
2: Someone approaches you with a knife/gun, wants your wallet. You attack. Someone gets injured. Maybe you, maybe him, maybe both. Maybe someone dies.
I know its not always so cut and dry, but its just a different approach to solving a problem. Even in scenario 1, you may still get attacked. Life is dynamic. Just one scenario of many, I know...
Of course you need to move your body around if it comes to a physical attack. However, if its simply a matter of the strongest/fastest, then you better be careful! Someone out there is in better shape than you! I'm not saying being out of shape is fine, I've said that a few times. However, if your art is based on muscle more than technique, you will inevitably come up w/ someone bigger and badder than you!
one of the best workouts I got was when I was testing. Had to do techniques quickly and often for about 2 hours. Great workout! Not only was I applying techniques, but I was getting some cardio done. Doing 100 pushups may get you stronger, but its not (stictly speaking) the equivelant of punching. I'd much rather do a workout w/ technique than something I could easily be doing at home. It would be fun to have classes like that more often... That I would enjoy.
A chemestry expert didn't become so by only sitting in chemestry classes reading the periodical table. Your example is flawed, but I would say yes you do need clculus to perform true chemestry. Its flawed because your trying to make it one demensional and its not. The physical application of learned techniques takes physical activity so you can't remove physical fitness from the learning process. I'm not talking about running 5 miles in class, but a 20 - 30 minute warmup is certainly not going to take too much time to learn something. Why is there some rule of how much must be learned in one class? Your workout comes from the techniques your learning and doing them during class, but to get your body ready for that takes some warmup. Also, learning realistic self defense cannot be approached from a purely academic standpoint, you must get in there and apply it alot to really "own" it.
20-30 minutes may not be too much... however, in what I wrote earlier, if you have an hour class, thats about 1/2 your class time. 2 or 3 hour class, I don't see 20 minutes as too much of a problem though. I guess thats just me
of course, you can't approach it from purely academic standpoints. Thats why we train and not just read self-defense books. How one group trains will be different from how another trains. Different arts, different philosophies. The philosophies/physical practices engrained in the art is the responsibility of the teacher. I'd be equally suprised to see an Aikidoka pumping iron as a boxer not training cardio in some fashion.
The chemistry arguement is not quite one dimensional. You need calculus to do chemistry, but you learn/study calculus in a different environment. Same way, you need physical fitness to do martial arts (to an extent) but I'd personally prefer to see it in a different environment (my own gym/time). Alot of people don't like that. I don't have a problem with that. This is just my preference.
The fact remains that to tie your shoes requires no conscious thought, but that didn't come from watching a diagram of shoe tying nor from practicing on a model shoe and learning each step. It came from the continued tying of your own shoes in real time when actually needed. Lets take your "riding a bike" example. We must define what the action of riding a bike really is. Is it understanding the needed requirements to opporate a bike or is it the actual physical riding of a bike? Knowing how to ride a bike and being able to ride a bike are very different things. I would suggest that for true life or death self defense more than a knowledge of what would be needed to fight for your life would be desireable....I may be the only one...but I desire more than that. You said:
