punching...

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by GouRonin

I think that while there are people who are truly fast I also think that speed can be learned or developed and is really a product of proper body mechanics IMHO.

I don't mean to sound contradictory here, but Gou's comment is overly simplistic...

All good technique stems from proper body mechanics... Power, speed, timing, etc., are all the result of proper body coordination.

Gou is correct in his comment, but it could have been worded a bit differently.

Just my BS 2 yen...

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1


Gou is correct in his comment, but it could have been worded a bit differently.

Lets stay on topic here, if his comment was correct, we don't need to correct his wording. This just brings about arguments, something we all can do without, right ?

7sm

 

[chufeng]

A little insight from one who lived with boxers...

!) When doing speed bag or heavy bag work the boxer wears a very thin leather glove...so his distance to target is not "off" secondary to boxing gloves...

2) The boxing glove does require that the boxer adjust his punch in the ring to deliver appropriate shock (adjusts distance)...For those that DO NOT adjust distance, the force is dissipated before shock is developed...this is what separates the experienced form the inexperienced boxer. (aside from ring generalmanship)

3) Both of my brothers were regional champions for 10 years...one went to the nationals twice...one fought for the USA overseas (France and Denmark) My father went on several overseas clinics to teach boxing in Africa and the Middle East (he went as a representative of the United States with full diplomatic privelege).

4) I witnessed my brother literally split the face of a guy who outweighed him by at least 100 pounds...the guy went over a railing in a bar and did not get up...WHY did my brother hit this guy so hard? Because he was threatening my other nrother who was one weight class below him...Do Not Underestimate the punching power of a "well-trained" boxer.

5) and yes, I can still kick his *** He is my little brother, after all.


:asian:
chufeng

 

[RyuShiKan]

My Grandfather fought in the Golden Gloves and did rather well from what I was told. He grew up in the Hispanic part of K.C. known as Armodale and being white had plenty of opportunity to "work-out".
I originally started off in a kick boxing style of Karate and after a few months asked my grandfather if he could show me some "moves" ..........................he handed me my *** in about a nano second.

 

[Carbon]

People always bring size into consideration when you are talking about fighting.

Yes this guy could of been 100 lbs. heavier then your brother but he could also be 2 inches shorter than your brother and be extremely obese.

I know that I may talk alot about Bruce Lee but to me he was a very amazing person and I bet that his size didn't matter and that he could probably knock you out anytime he felt like it.

I was trying to get a book The Tao of Jeet Kune Do but couldn't find it at half priced book stores and another one where he wrote about training and health. I was interested in reading the comments he made about speed training.

 

[Damian Mavis]

Carbon, Carbon, Carbon....sigh

Its not nice when your in a debate with someone to demand they tell you what prize fighters lived in their house or you want visual proof or their worthiness in the form of videos. Why not give them the benefit of the doubt? It still amazes me that a guy who gets all his info out of books is so opinionated while the rest of us are out there bleeding and sweating to discover the truth for ouselves. When you disagree with people here try not to act like they are liars MKAY? And telling people that Bruce Lee could easily knock them out is annoying as hell.

As for boxing... I box, and every boxer I know avoids getting into a street fight like the plague because and I quote "its so damn easy with our technique to break our hands" What he was referring to was the fact that boxers have excellent technique, so good that when the whole body is behind their punch like it is supposed to be it is easier to break on a hard surface.

I use to train by punching walls..... it seemed fine until I started boxing, theres no way in hell I'd ever throw a "proper" right cross at a wall. My hand would most certainly break.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

First, the punching skills of boxing should not be under or over estimated. They do what they do. It is not the punch alone, but the application of it by a skilled boxer that allows the punch to be so effective. It is really no different in MA. But it must be kept in mind that their are several issues that cause the two training areas to be significantly different.

Boxing punches are trained with wrapped hands/wrists and while wearing gloves. The wrapping of the hand and wrist eliminates the need for the student to develop the proper wrist strength and alignment that will allow his punch to be strong without the wrap. Didn't Mike Tyson injure his hand in a street fight while he was still an unconvicted non-felon? Why? Because he has never had to learn to hold his fist in the correct position - it was held there with canvas wraps. The gloves also figure into the equation of an effective unprotected punch. The point of contact of the glove can be anywhere from 1/2 inch to 2 inches from the actual fist. This destroys the understanding of distance in the technique, and may well cause punches to miss (and the arm to be hyperextended) altogether, or they will be buried too deeply eliminating the "shock" effect of MA punches when they penetrate just below the surface of the target.

I would reiterate what I said previously...

1) Wrapped hands do not allow for the proper strengthening that occurs from MA training.

2) Regular boxing gloves will throw off the distance of a punch, disallowing the transfer of shock desired in a MA punch.

This having been said, I would quote Chufeng's comments to reinforce the messages being sent here...

Do Not Underestimate the punching power of a "well-trained" boxer.

And

...this is what separates the experienced form the inexperienced boxer.

As I stated at the beginning of my post before, and at the beginning of the quote of my own post above, "the punching skills of boxing should not be under or over estimated. They do what they do. It is not the punch alone, but the application of it by a skilled boxer that allows the punch to be so effective."

Boxing is as much a martial art as judo, iaido, Shaolin chuan-fa, tae kwon do, pankration or anything else... It must always be understood that our comments, as generalized as they are, are meant to be applied to the rank and file, the unwashed masses, not the exceptional individuals that rise out of the morass of mediocrity to go beyond the limitations of their environments to develop truly noteworthy skills.

Just my opinions, for what they are worth...

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

Lets stay on topic here, if his comment was correct, we don't need to correct his wording. This just brings about arguments, something we all can do without, right ?

7sm

Okay, then, his comment was inaccurate though not incorrect.

It is inaccurate to say

I think that while there are people who are truly fast I also think that speed can be learned or developed and is really a product of proper body mechanics IMHO.

It is more accurate to say that speed, power and timing can be learned or developed and are a product of proper body mechanics.

Correcting wording only brings about arguments if people take the correction personally and are unable to see the legitimacy in making sure the intentions and ideas are fully explained and conveyed to the readers... Perhaps what is being said is "understood" on some other level, but given the nature of electronic communication media, it is best to be sure that you write exactly what you mean to say...

:asian:

 

[chufeng]

Carbon,

I witnessed the event I described....the guy was NOT short and FAT...

He was taller and heavier and NOTORIOUS for his street fighting skill...that is why John, my brother, stepped in...Drew would have had his hands full at 135 pounds (Drew was a really nice guy and probably would have been sucker punched before he realized the danger he was in)...John on the other hand LIKED to fight...

John warned the guy to back off...the guy said "or what?"
So John showed him...

My story is real...NOT hypothetical...so stop trying to back up your argument with imaginings.

Not all boxers can fight like John...
Some boxers may break their hands, BUT...not all boxers will break their hands when they hit you, either...

Boxers at Dad's gym were required to do push ups on their knuckles...and the wraps used in ameteur training really do NOT provide any protection for the wrist...just keeps the knuckles from getting scraped up (For competition they would reinforce the wrap with athletic tape...end result was like a cast)...Dad's boxers did not use a lot of "looping" punches (with the exception of the uppercut)...he emphasized "Straight" punches and lots of body shots.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Carbon]

I was not saying that your story wasn't true. I was just giving a situation where size could be different in two fighters but the outcome shouldn't be affected by it.

Now Daman Mavis lol, I still remember you yes. You say that I only read books? Well I'm sorry to say but books are where information is provided. I never said, "And telling people that Bruce Lee could easily knock them out is annoying as hell."

I don't know where you got the impression that I said Bruce Lee could knock you out. I was backing up my previous statement that size isn't always a factor in a fight.

Then went on to say that Bruce Lee wasn't a very big man but could probably knock you out.

Training by punching walls? You do realize that the bones in the human body already possess the strength to endure punches and kicks right? There is no need to try and strengthen bones.

Also I was just asking for video's. I mean the guy sounds like an extremely well fighter and I am always looking for videos of training and fighting and such.

And when I doubt someone on here you may say oh you haven't ever done that so how do you know its not true blah blah.

In a real situation trapping is worthless IMHO. If you want to discuss this I'll be glad to, but I am not trying to argue and a forum is for debate in certain situations I know.

 

[Bod]

Carbon - you can't go about quoting Bruce Lee as gospel and then say that trapping in real situations is worthless.

You do realize that the bones in the human body already possess the strength to endure punches and kicks right?

What is that supposed to mean? Send in a video of you being kicked by a mule, in every bone in your body and I'll believe it.

No, I'm not calling you a liar. I believe you are a skilled fighter, and I wan't to learn from you.

 

[fissure]

I believe you are a skilled fighter, and I wan't to learn from you.

Why would you assume that carbon, me or anyone else her is a skilled fighter based apon internet ramblings?

 

[Damian Mavis]

Carbon, I didnt think any of your comments were directed at me, whether about Bruce Lee or trapping or anything else. But reading your posts I realised that you have a hard time getting your point across without sarcasm and insults and I'm just telling you that people would probably be more open minded if every post you made didn't come with a barb of some kind.

And I was just reminding you that people are also going to have a hard time respecting your opinion when your entire knowledge base is from reading books...... you debate on a martial arts forum when you dont actually TAKE martial arts. But gosh darn it youve read some books! Right away people that are busy enduring the pain of rigorous martial arts training and learning the "truths" of combat the hard way are going to have a hard time taking your opinion seriously. All I'm saying is with your "background" in the arts you might want to be a little more amiable to other posters, try to have discussions without insinuating people are liars, I see you do that alot...all you've got to do is change the tone of your posts a little and you'll probably have better discussions and more people might even agree with you.

P.S. I hit hard surfaces like walls to toughen my skin and knuckles by building calluses and conditioning them to not feel pain as much, not to "strengthen" bone....... this is an ages old process and is not particularly healthy but does toughen your hands and even makes them feel like a more solid object. I wish I could remember the famous kung fu guys name that did that kind of training all his life... but now his hands look horrible but if he lightly "taps" you on the head it feels like you just got bonked with a steel bar. This is a similar process that Muay Thai practitioners use to toughen their shins so they can take full contact kicks shin on shin.


Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Wes Idol]

Originally posted by hand2handCombat

maybe u guys might disagree but i think most MA's punches are terrible. why?becasue they are more technique oriented. im gonna cross train in western boxing soon becasue i suck at punchin. what u guys think?

I fully support your journey into boxing. I've spent time with Jim Tunney (Gene Tunney's grandson), as well as time with Benny "The Jet" Urquidez, and many aspects of punching like a boxer only added to my understanding of punching. Interestingly enough, Kenpo instructors I've done extensive time with...Albert Cornejo, Frank Trejo, Bryan Hawkins and Mike Pick, have all exposed me to Ed Parker's American Kenpo while showing me some very similiar wrist and hand structures that are in American Boxing. Make no mistake, Ed Parker trained as a boxer when he was young. Boxing is not the only way, but it is part of our way.

Respectfully,

Wes Idol, HI
United Kenpo Systems
http://www.uks-kenpo.com

 

[chufeng]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

[. I wish I could remember the famous kung fu guys name that did that kind of training all his life... but now his hands look horrible but if he lightly "taps" you on the head it feels like you just got bonked with a steel bar. This is a similar process that Muay Thai practitioners use to toughen their shins so they can take full contact kicks shin on shin.


Damian Mavis
Honour TKD [/B]

Pan Shin Fu
Lives in Vancouver, B.C., currently.

 

[Damian Mavis]

Thankyou very much!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Carbon]

I would like to point out that the intention of my posts are not to call anyone a liar.

You say that have to be a MAist to actually fight? I mean what kind of ignorance is that? You say you work to find the truth about MA but what do you know about my life?

No I don't take MA but does that mean that I can't make educated decisions about the laws of physics.

Bod what I meant was that the way your body is built it is already capable of withstanding a punch that you throw or a kick that you throw.

Also Damian Mavis you should read an interesting article in Black Belt magazine where a MAist went to train in Thailand and was there to disprove all of the myths of them toughening their shins and how they cut the nerve endings out of their shins so they don't feel pain. I am not sure which article it is but I have it laying around here somewhere.

And if deadening the nerve endings in your hand is what you call training then thats fine. I just wouldn't reccomend it.

And me quoting Bruce Lee as a bible, I'm sorry no. I don't want to sound rude and I may be sounding rude but I don't know any other way to put it when I said that was my opinion and you are here telling me that my opinion is wrong?

Yes, I don't think trapping is effective in real situations sorry I haven't had a 26 year practioner to test this on, sorry I'm not an expert full contact fighter so I can prove or disprove anything I say.

Also fissure he said that he spars full contact all the time and that his application of fighting was effective, thats all I meant by skilled fighter

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
It is more accurate to say that speed, power and timing can be learned or developed and are a product of proper body mechanics...

No it isn't. Maybe in your opinion. Most speed is really the product of proper mechanics. Speed in itself is really an illusion because mechanics allow for it to occur in a certain manner. There are people who are generally faster than others but for the most part most people are not faster than others. Just more mechanically sound.

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Correcting wording only brings about arguments if people take the correction personally and are unable to see the legitimacy in making sure the intentions and ideas are fully explained and conveyed to the readers... Perhaps what is being said is "understood" on some other level, but given the nature of electronic communication media, it is best to be sure that you write exactly what you mean to say...

Actually I was going to chew your @ss out for correcting me because I said what I wanted to say. You just didn't agree with my version. But then you said this earlier:

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Boxing is as much a martial art as judo, iaido, Shaolin chuan-fa, tae kwon do, pankration or anything else...

So I won't. I appreciate this comment.

 

[Damian Mavis]

Carbon,

"You say that have to be a MAist to actually fight? "

No no not at all, I never said that. Plenty of people fight with no training and plenty win that fight.


"disprove all of the myths of them toughening their shins and how they cut the nerve endings out of their shins so they don't feel pain"

You dont really understand what I mean. What you state above is insane (cutting nerve endings, I've never heard of that myth), what I'm talking about is how I've been kicking the banana bag (a very hard punching bag that goes from the floor to the ceiling) for the past year and a half at Thai boxing and I no longer have the same sensations of pain when I kick shin on shin. Methods like this toughen your shins to the point were they become usable weapons and blocking tools. When I first joined I blocked a shin kick with my shin and fell over in agony...couldnt even walk for 5 minutes. Now I block the same kick with little to no pain felt. Now I'm telling you that Muay Thai conditions their shins to not feel as much pain...its a simple truth but you seem baffled by it. You cannot do what they do in the ring with their shins without conditioning them, even if the conditioning is just repreatedly kicking a hard punching bag with your shin for 3 years. Knock your shin lightly against a hard surface like a table and tell me after feeling that pain what you think it would be like if someone took a swing with a baseball bat at your shin. That is what its like in Muay Thai.

"And if deadening the nerve endings in your hand is what you call training then thats fine. I just wouldn't reccomend it"

Me neither, I started by punching the yellow pages phone book and worked my way up to hard surfaces like wood, brick and walls etc. I did that for a long time until I found out that it could cause arthritis when I was older and I didn't think having fists that were like rocks to knock someone out was worth the pain down the road so I stopped.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[fissure]

Too Carbon;
1: I wasn't directing my comment to you. I was refering to Bod's comment about you:

No, I'm not calling you a liar. I believe you are a skilled fighter, and I wan't to learn from you.

hence me responce to Bod:

Why would you assume that carbon, me or anyone else her is a skilled fighter based apon internet ramblings?

2: posted by you:

You say that have to be a MAist to actually fight? I mean what kind of ignorance is that? You say you work to find the truth about MA but what do you know about my life?

Matrial Arts is the practice of warfare.If you train to fight (even if it is outside of traditional dojo), then you are fullfilling this definition.
3:I believe Damian's fustraton comes from the fact that you are telling him, me and many others who have spent a life time training, that what you have read in books is of equal importance as our actuall experience.This comes across as a little naive, and arrogant.
Theory is all well and good - until someone smacks you in the head!:EG: