Baoquan
Blue Belt
On boxing vs. "other" MA punches.....
Yes, boxers are very good punchers, and there are very good punching techniques in boxing. Boxing has a very good body position for delivering power through your hands and for evading upper body attacks. Boxers tend to punch very accurately and effectively because they do A LOT of heavy contact training and sparring....but, when it comes down to it, boxing is a sport. (this is not a rip on boxing..i've been boxing since i was six, and i LOVE it...)
Boxing wil teach you wicked upper body skills..but by no means all of them. It is open to trapping, grappling, leg attacks...and so many others. IMHO, spending time at a good boxing gym will improve your sparring skills and power, mostly because of the training style...boxers dont punch air, or throw "arm" punches.
However, whatever you learn in a boxing gym MUST be considered in relation to all MA, and taken on board knowing what its strengths and weaknesses are.
Cheers
Baoquan.
Yes, boxers are very good punchers, and there are very good punching techniques in boxing. Boxing has a very good body position for delivering power through your hands and for evading upper body attacks. Boxers tend to punch very accurately and effectively because they do A LOT of heavy contact training and sparring....but, when it comes down to it, boxing is a sport. (this is not a rip on boxing..i've been boxing since i was six, and i LOVE it...)
Boxing wil teach you wicked upper body skills..but by no means all of them. It is open to trapping, grappling, leg attacks...and so many others. IMHO, spending time at a good boxing gym will improve your sparring skills and power, mostly because of the training style...boxers dont punch air, or throw "arm" punches.
However, whatever you learn in a boxing gym MUST be considered in relation to all MA, and taken on board knowing what its strengths and weaknesses are.
Cheers
Baoquan.
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hand2handCombat
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tyson vs. royce?
i say itll be a challenge. tyson hits like a mthafcker iheard his hits were 800 lbs
i say itll be a challenge. tyson hits like a mthafcker iheard his hits were 800 lbs
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RyuShiKan
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- #24
Really?
In what way?
Oddly enough I have seen several adverts in the usual North American MA "rags" that are out as well as several MA stores for "traditional" Makiwara.
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fissure
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RyuShiKan, I seem to remember something about the original use of straw. I beleive I read that it was used due to it's natural ( all though minimal) antiseptic properties.Do you know anything of this?Or is my memory flawed.
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RyuShiKan
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- #26
I have heard this as well.
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fissure
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RyuShiKan, not on topic, but since I have your ear...
I'm currious as to the comparison between Asian and American matrial artists.On the whole is either better,more intense or more devoted?Does either take MA more seriously? Or is the situation in Japan the same as in the U.S. - some train till they drop, and other basically socialize?
I'm currious as to the comparison between Asian and American matrial artists.On the whole is either better,more intense or more devoted?Does either take MA more seriously? Or is the situation in Japan the same as in the U.S. - some train till they drop, and other basically socialize?
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artful dodger
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KennethKu
2nd Black Belt
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If straw pad makiwara is still available commercially, then I was mistaken.
There is really no reason to use straw pad as shock absorber. It was the material of choice, by necessity back then. Today, there are many types of rubber foam pad that work as great shcok absorber. They offer much better shock absorbing properties. They do not wreck the skin off your knuckles. They are weather proof (if you have your makiwara outdoor). They are easy to clean too.
The resistance offered by the rather stiff makiwara pole can be duplicated in a wall-mounted spring supported rubber foam punching pad.
Of course, my personal preference is a canvas bag filled with 50lb of tiny pit gravels. :asian:
JMHO
In case it has skipped people's attention, I am reposting a link in my earlier post.
http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/101/28_makiwara.html
There is interesting explaination by the author regarding the drawback of makiwara.
I take exception to the author's assertion that conditioning the knuckles are for idiots. lol Unless he was referring to conditioning to the point of deformation , in which case, I would have to agree with him.
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fissure
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An interesting story.However, I'm not sure why you qouted a passage from my post - if there is some correlation, I must confess I'm missing it.
Carbon
Blue Belt
Bahoquan or whatever you said:
Boxing wil teach you wicked upper body skills..but by no means all of them. It is open to trapping, grappling, leg attacks...and so many others. IMHO, spending time at a good boxing gym will improve your sparring skills and power, mostly because of the training style...boxers dont punch air, or throw "arm" punches
I'm sorry to say that boxers do punch air. It's called shadow boxing. The point of this type of training in what I've been told is to increase speed, bag training is to increase power. You need both but overtraining in either can make you lose speed or lose power.
I also would like to see you trap a boxers arm. Ya its easy to say and its easy to talk about and don't say oh I have or anything like that because untill you have a video of a full contact video of you trapping then don't make up things.
I would also like to point out that its alot different when you have padding on and when you don't. If you don't have padding on and you dont' know what the other guy can do you aren't going to be saying to yourself, Oh I can trap his arm, apply a throw and then do a sumbission move. Most likely he will start swinging at your face as fast as he can and you either get knocked out or not get hit.
Boxing wil teach you wicked upper body skills..but by no means all of them. It is open to trapping, grappling, leg attacks...and so many others. IMHO, spending time at a good boxing gym will improve your sparring skills and power, mostly because of the training style...boxers dont punch air, or throw "arm" punches
I'm sorry to say that boxers do punch air. It's called shadow boxing. The point of this type of training in what I've been told is to increase speed, bag training is to increase power. You need both but overtraining in either can make you lose speed or lose power.
I also would like to see you trap a boxers arm. Ya its easy to say and its easy to talk about and don't say oh I have or anything like that because untill you have a video of a full contact video of you trapping then don't make up things.
I would also like to point out that its alot different when you have padding on and when you don't. If you don't have padding on and you dont' know what the other guy can do you aren't going to be saying to yourself, Oh I can trap his arm, apply a throw and then do a sumbission move. Most likely he will start swinging at your face as fast as he can and you either get knocked out or not get hit.
Baoquan
Blue Belt
did u read all my post? I said boxing will teach some, but not all.
I know what shadow boxing is. It is not for speed...its is to concentrate on form. no one punches full speed shadow boxing. It starts to hurt ur shoulders/elbows too much. This, BTW, is not what ive been told, but what i've known from having boxers train at my house since i was a kid.
i have never trapped a boxer's arm. I dont trap. I am, as i said, largely a boxer. I have, however, had my arm trapped. It sucked.
It made, me realise (a) my defense was getting sloppy from too much bag work, (b) training all the time with gloves on closes up a whole lot of technique opportunities, and therefore , (c)boxing does not represent a complete set of upper body hand skills.
I am also aware of the differences created by wearing padding. I spar. A lot. without padding.
CHeers
Baoquan (or whatever).
I know what shadow boxing is. It is not for speed...its is to concentrate on form. no one punches full speed shadow boxing. It starts to hurt ur shoulders/elbows too much. This, BTW, is not what ive been told, but what i've known from having boxers train at my house since i was a kid.
i have never trapped a boxer's arm. I dont trap. I am, as i said, largely a boxer. I have, however, had my arm trapped. It sucked.
It made, me realise (a) my defense was getting sloppy from too much bag work, (b) training all the time with gloves on closes up a whole lot of technique opportunities, and therefore , (c)boxing does not represent a complete set of upper body hand skills.
I am also aware of the differences created by wearing padding. I spar. A lot. without padding.
CHeers
Baoquan (or whatever).
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
Better late than never.
Punching is the least understood, least practiced, and often times the worst technique in a MAist's arsenal...
I remember being in a TKD school, watching their 5th and 6th dans throwing punches that would have allowed their wrists to buckle and break had they impacted on anything more solid than a pillow... Sad sight, I must say.
First, the punching skills of boxing should not be under or over estimated. They do what they do. It is not the punch alone, but the application of it by a skilled boxer that allows the punch to be so effective. It is really no different in MA. But it must be kept in mind that their are several issues that cause the two training areas to be significantly different.
Boxing punches are trained with wrapped hands/wrists and while wearing gloves. The wrapping of the hand and wrist eliminates the need for the student to develop the proper wrist strength and alignment that will allow his punch to be strong without the wrap. Didn't Mike Tyson injure his hand in a street fight while he was still an unconvicted non-felon? Why? Because he has never had to learn to hold his fist in the correct position - it was held there with canvas wraps. The gloves also figure into the equation of an effective unprotected punch. The point of contact of the glove can be anywhere from 1/2 inch to 2 inches from the actual fist. This destroys the understanding of distance in the technique, and may well cause punches to miss (and the arm to be hyperextended) altogether, or they will be buried too deeply eliminating the "shock" effect of MA punches when they penetrate just below the surface of the target.
As for conditioning, the use of the makiwara is, as RyuShiKan has commented upthread, for developing strength, focus, etc. The folks that tell you to smack the post until the bones show are only displaying their very superficial understanding of martial conditioning.
In Yiliquan, we use both the makiwara and sandbags (as referred to by KennethKu). The makiwara is used first by pressing the fist against it, bending the makiwara post back. When this becomes more comfortable, light strikes are applied. The straw does not act as a "shock absorber," but as a slightly abrasive surface that will absorb moisture, blood, etc., while retaining its resilience over time. There is no need for "shock absorbtion," as the techniques are not applied at full strength until the hand has received a degree of conditioning to allow the knuckles to escape relatively unscathed. Over time, the light strikes become harder strikes, until one day the student is plowing through the post as if it weren't there.
The sandbag may be filled with different materials to provide different effects. In Iron Palm training, first grain, then sand, then steel shot is used to gradually build the hand's conditioning level.
However, the type of "strength" of technique that is developed from bag striking and post striking are very different, and neither should be neglected. If one form of training is more beneficial, I would have to say that the makiwara is more valuable for its whole body development (that bag striking typically does not convey).
Just my 2 yen.
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
Punching is the least understood, least practiced, and often times the worst technique in a MAist's arsenal...
I remember being in a TKD school, watching their 5th and 6th dans throwing punches that would have allowed their wrists to buckle and break had they impacted on anything more solid than a pillow... Sad sight, I must say.
First, the punching skills of boxing should not be under or over estimated. They do what they do. It is not the punch alone, but the application of it by a skilled boxer that allows the punch to be so effective. It is really no different in MA. But it must be kept in mind that their are several issues that cause the two training areas to be significantly different.
Boxing punches are trained with wrapped hands/wrists and while wearing gloves. The wrapping of the hand and wrist eliminates the need for the student to develop the proper wrist strength and alignment that will allow his punch to be strong without the wrap. Didn't Mike Tyson injure his hand in a street fight while he was still an unconvicted non-felon? Why? Because he has never had to learn to hold his fist in the correct position - it was held there with canvas wraps. The gloves also figure into the equation of an effective unprotected punch. The point of contact of the glove can be anywhere from 1/2 inch to 2 inches from the actual fist. This destroys the understanding of distance in the technique, and may well cause punches to miss (and the arm to be hyperextended) altogether, or they will be buried too deeply eliminating the "shock" effect of MA punches when they penetrate just below the surface of the target.
As for conditioning, the use of the makiwara is, as RyuShiKan has commented upthread, for developing strength, focus, etc. The folks that tell you to smack the post until the bones show are only displaying their very superficial understanding of martial conditioning.
In Yiliquan, we use both the makiwara and sandbags (as referred to by KennethKu). The makiwara is used first by pressing the fist against it, bending the makiwara post back. When this becomes more comfortable, light strikes are applied. The straw does not act as a "shock absorber," but as a slightly abrasive surface that will absorb moisture, blood, etc., while retaining its resilience over time. There is no need for "shock absorbtion," as the techniques are not applied at full strength until the hand has received a degree of conditioning to allow the knuckles to escape relatively unscathed. Over time, the light strikes become harder strikes, until one day the student is plowing through the post as if it weren't there.
The sandbag may be filled with different materials to provide different effects. In Iron Palm training, first grain, then sand, then steel shot is used to gradually build the hand's conditioning level.
However, the type of "strength" of technique that is developed from bag striking and post striking are very different, and neither should be neglected. If one form of training is more beneficial, I would have to say that the makiwara is more valuable for its whole body development (that bag striking typically does not convey).
Just my 2 yen.
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
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fissure
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That gotta hurt! I don't think anyone is going to convince me to take it that far.
A typicall sight in most TKD dojang ( and I'm a TKD guy). I've only seen a handfull of TKD players with a decent punch, and I have to confess I got mine from years of Shotokan training.
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RyuShiKan
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The combination of several types of "hitting" equipment is good.
I use the Makiwara (old type), a speed bag, two "over and under" bags filled with 140lbs. of sand each, and a 350lbs ballistic canvas (Kevlar) heavy bag........which is great for weapons too.
Each tool focuses on a different aspect of hitting, heavy bag......obviously for overall strength in punches and kicks, speed bag for eye-hand coordination, "over and under" bags for foot/shin/palm/backfist/open hand strikes and makiwara for the associated muscles used in punching plus "kime" or focus.
I use the Makiwara (old type), a speed bag, two "over and under" bags filled with 140lbs. of sand each, and a 350lbs ballistic canvas (Kevlar) heavy bag........which is great for weapons too.
Each tool focuses on a different aspect of hitting, heavy bag......obviously for overall strength in punches and kicks, speed bag for eye-hand coordination, "over and under" bags for foot/shin/palm/backfist/open hand strikes and makiwara for the associated muscles used in punching plus "kime" or focus.
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hand2handCombat
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ya, ive noticed the result of that. i overstraind in power and lost speed. the best thing to do is speed, because its the power behind momentum
Carbon
Blue Belt
Baoquan, If you want to know where I read about the increasing speeding using shadow boxing or pretty much just punching the air is from a book written by Bruce Lee.
He states in this book if I'm not mistaken that its neccesary if you want to increase speed that you need to test speed and to try and increase it without restraint.
This is why in most movies you'll see him doing warm up kicks and such and he will be doing them pretty fast. If you want me to get the name of the book and the exact quote and page I will.
Also I would like to know the name of the prized fighters that were in your house when you are growing up. I think its generalization to say just because you had a boxer living in your house when you were growing means that all his knowledge was the correct techniques.
Also if you would like to post a video of you sparring full contact I would love to see it.
Also the way you effectively prevent tendanitous in the elbows is by not fulling extending on your punches. Learning how to control the distance when you throw a punch without anyone or anything being hit is a good way to measure distance.
He states in this book if I'm not mistaken that its neccesary if you want to increase speed that you need to test speed and to try and increase it without restraint.
This is why in most movies you'll see him doing warm up kicks and such and he will be doing them pretty fast. If you want me to get the name of the book and the exact quote and page I will.
Also I would like to know the name of the prized fighters that were in your house when you are growing up. I think its generalization to say just because you had a boxer living in your house when you were growing means that all his knowledge was the correct techniques.
Also if you would like to post a video of you sparring full contact I would love to see it.
Also the way you effectively prevent tendanitous in the elbows is by not fulling extending on your punches. Learning how to control the distance when you throw a punch without anyone or anything being hit is a good way to measure distance.
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Kenpo Wolf
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Being a former boxer myself, I very much agree with Yiliquan1. When I began kenpo, I found that my punches were not effective as I thought them to be due to a poor fist and the pulling of the punch itself.
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GouRonin
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I think that while there are people who are truly fast I also think that speed can be learned or developed and is really a product of proper body mechanics IMHO.
I completely agree!!
With proper body mechanics and proper training with technique, "perfection" as far as punches go can be achieved.
7sm
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