Pulling Rank

[KenpoGirl]

Okay, it's been a while since I've started a post, so I guess it's about time.

The question is......... Does or should rank apply when outside of the Studio/School/Dojo etc...? (i.e. Doing jobs outside of the school for your instructor as a requirement on top of tuition paid; or waiting for the senior instructor to eat first at a restaurant, or sitting by rank at a restaurant, white belts sitting furthest way etc...)

I've had this discussion with a couple people about the way things use to be, and in some cases still are.

A person should always be respected, but should you go as far as to treat them as someone superior when your out having a leisurely time at a Restaurant or Bar, or after training hours? Has that attitude changed? Is your instructor just "one of the guys/girls" when you see them in a social setting?

I'd like your opinion, please.

Dot
:asian:

 

[Deathtrap101]

Out of the dojo, ofcourse you still give the same respect. But it's much more slack. When seeing an instructer in a social setting he\she is just one of the guys\gals. It is for me anyway, after a clinic we actualy all got together for drinks at boston pizza. It was a very casual setting, i talked to the founder of renshikan karate for a while and it was very easy going.

 

[Hollywood1340]

Other then names for the most part, I agree. (Master Taylor is still Master Taylor, kinda like Mrs. Tackett, my 2nd Grade Teacher is still Mrs. Tackett no matter where I see her) We go out for drinks, and talk normaly, but he is still my instructor, I'm his student, but that's a given and a good time is had by all. That about sums it up.

 

[MartialArtist]

To me, it's a mixed subject.

There are some people that you ALWAYS have to respect. In the military and you see a Lt. General, you salute no matter what (unless it's a VERY bad time). If I saw the grandmaster of the school who holds a 8th or a 9th dan, I show respect to him just like I would show respect him in school.

For assistant instructors, yeah, I could be a little more casual but I will still show respect, just not in the case where I have to listen to you all the time.

But with some people, I don't know... I've never had any casual relationship with any of my teachers at school (as in education school). It was a professional relationship, not some casual talk to me type thing.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

It depends on the situation.

It gets more complex for me as some of my clients are my 'seniors'. It also depends on the setting, and how I believe they want to be addressed.

for assistant instructors, in most cases i'm more casual, but again, it depends on the situation. On the floor, I'll Mr n Ms em...off the floor, I'm usually a first name personable person. Those who are older than me are almost always addresses as 'mr' unless I know its ok otherwise. Just oldschool mentality.:asian:

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

Outside of the dojang I've always shown the same respect to my Sabumnim and and the assistant instructor as if we were in the dojang. Bow first, and then shake hands. For us it's always a given to show respect even though we're in Southern California... :asian:

 

[Zepp]

I think you should always show a bit of extra respect toward your instructor, or other instructors in your style. Just how much respect varies depending on how the person expects to be treated. You definitely show respect to your grandmaster or head of your style wherever you are. (Especially in my case since our grandmaster is the only one who awards dan ranks. )

But as far as "pulling rank" goes, I don't think anyone who isn't a designated "instructor" deserves any extra privileges in or out of the dojo. Back when I was a purple belt, there was this brown belt in our class who would cut in front of yellow belts in line for kicking the bag. He always said he was "pulling rank." My response to this was to tell him to get his *** back in line before I kicked him in his cajones. The black belts didn't seem to feel that I was unjustified.

 

[sweeper]

My MA instructor is a teacher, and I gve all the teachers I have had and liked respect, but I give them respect as teachers, that is to say I respect my instructor because he is my teacher not because he teaches MA.

 

[dearnis.com]

NO!
Many of my students are my close friends and any "respect" that is shown out of class is based on that (of course I also use my first name in class).
Chad

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by dearnis.com
NO!
Many of my students are my close friends and any "respect" that is shown out of class is based on that (of course I also use my first name in class).
Chad

The day I become friends with my instructor, is the day I have nothing more to learn from him.
As my teacher it is his job to help me stretch, among other things.
If he is my friend, then he will just accept me as I am. How does he help me, then, to find new depths?

In class he is Master Monea or Senseii. Out of class, he is Master Frank, Master Monea, or Senseii.

--Dave

:asian:

 

[Kirk]

If the people who outranked me expected to be able to make
me do pushups, or wait until they decide to eat, or be errand
boy for them or anything else outside of the classroom, that'd be
the day I stop being a student there. I call my instructor "Mr
Abernathy" at all times, and he's never said to do otherwise.
But if a bunch of us are going out to dinner, out for drinks, or
whatever outside of the school, I'll eat when I decide to eat.
They can carry their own equipment to and from their vehicles,
they're adults, fully capable. I didn't sign up to learn kenpo so
I could be somebody's lacky.

 

[Cthulhu]

I'm reminded of the CMQ/D examples of students who were required to do construction work for CMQ/D's founder...with no pay. If their instructors called on them, in school or out...regardless of time of day, they had to comply.

Cthulhu

 

[michaeledward]

My daughter was studying Kenpo for two years before I started training. I always called the owner of the school by his given name, 'Mike'.

When I started training myself, I had to be corrected once, by one of the other black belts in the school; she said to me, on the matt, you're suppose to address the instructors as 'Mr.', or 'Instructor' ('Ms.' if the instructor is female.) Outside the school, it is perfectly acceptable to address the instructors by their first name.

Okay, all that is simple enough ... now the gaff ...

I recently attended a seminar with 'Huk' Planas at Doreen Cogliandro's Revere Karate Academy. It was suppose to be an 7:00 PM to 8:30 PM workout. Those of you that have attended these seminars know that it turned into a several hour long session. When I went to leave, I wanted to show my gratitude to the host for sponsoring the seminar (odd, as I paid to attend the seminar - I don't thank the movie theater when I leave - that's another topic), so on the matt, I walked up to Ms. Cogliandro (an 8th degree) and thanked her as 'Doreen' .... Oops. Then, I thanked Mr. Planas with a handshake, and not a Kenpo salute.

As we were driving away, I realized that I showed my appreciation and respect in a strictly Western sense, and that I, perhaps, assumed entirely too much familiarity with Ms. Cogliandro.

My only excuse is that after working out with Mr. Planas for a couple of hours, my brain hurts too much to think straight.

Oh, well ... I do intend to go to the IKC later this summer. I assume I will behave better at that time.

Mike

 

[fist of fury]

Rank should not be considered outside the school. Thier just people and if they expect more then they have ego problems.

 

[tonbo]

I would say that rank does not apply outside of the studio/school/dojo, but that *respect* does. That respect needs to cut two ways: from instructor to student, and from student to instructor.

At our school, instructors are to be referred to by "Mr.", "Ms.", or "Mrs.". If the uniform is on, or we are all at the school, this rule has no exceptions. Outside of the school, however, things are different. We call each other by first name, or by their title (Mr., Ms., etc.) as we feel like, and as appropriate. The respect is still there, no matter what.

The owner/head instructor of the school is slightly more of a problem for me, personally. He has insisted that I call him by his first name when we are not at the school, but I still can't do that, not even after working fairly closely with him for the last 5 years. It just doesn't seem right. As for our relationship, I would say we are friends, but not good or exceptional friends. As much fun as we may have together, I still look at him as a mentor and a teacher. I don't want to lose that.

Finally, as far as that whole load with sitting by rank in restaurants, being accessible to your master/sifu/sensei *any* time of the day, etc. , two words come to mind: *21st Century*. That may have been how things were done in the past, but it doesn't mean it applies today. Outside of the school, I will give respect, but I won't allow it to be demanded of me. Rank outside the school should be voluntary, not compulsory. In my opinion, anyone who claims rank privileges outside of the school is in need of some *serious* therapy and ego counseling.

Uh...that goes for outside of MT, too.

Respect to all-- :asian:

Peace--

 

[Blindside]

The day I become friends with my instructor, is the day I have nothing more to learn from him. As my teacher it is his job to help me stretch, among other things. If he is my friend, then he will just accept me as I am. How does he help me, then, to find new depths?

Wow, do I disagree with this idea. My instructor is also someone I would consider a good friend, and he has never stopped pushing me. In fact, I suspect we feel more comfortable critiqueing each other because we are friends. And certainly our friendship has never stopped him from pummeling me around the room and into a quivering mass on the floor.

Our school is a family linked by our shared experiences in martial arts. In class our titles are Mr. or Sifu, but outside of class respect between us is shown in actions not titles.

The question is......... Does or should rank apply when outside of the Studio/School/Dojo etc...? (i.e. Doing jobs outside of the school for your instructor as a requirement on top of tuition paid; or waiting for the senior instructor to eat first at a restaurant, or sitting by rank at a restaurant, white belts sitting furthest way etc...)

Well, my instructor is often the first to eat, but that is just becasue he LIKES to eat. Certainly none of us are going to wait on him. Rank means very little outside of our class.

Lamont

 

[mtabone]

Martial Arts is a way of life. The "DO" or Way. It does not matter on the mat or off, in the DoJang/DoJo, or what ever the training hall is called, or out of the training hall, we still practice the discipline of our choisen way. It is not an egotistical problem, as I see it around me, with the seniors excpecting to be called Master, or the like, but the juniors not wishing to put their own egos aside.When I get a new student, I tell them to call all their seniors by Mr. ________ or Mrs. ___________ etc... regardless of age, only rank matters. If they call me by my first name, usaully some other student in the class will correct them. It is not for me that they call me Mr. Tabone, it is more for them. Outside of the Dojang, it is the same. While I am no longer teaching them right that second any marital arts, I am still an example of the Way. Even though I am far from perfect. Great thing about being human, you can make mistakes.

And just as, Respect is shown to me, from my juniors, I show the same respect, if not more, to my juniors. I have learned so much from the martial arts, I hope to give back more then I took....

Michael Tabone

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Several of my instructors are my friends. I've found its true, they do accept me for who I am, however, they also tend to push me harder than other instructors who I had only a professional relationship with did.

As to carrying bags, etc...I have to disagree...but within certain parameters.

Visiting instructor, I'll help out. I've picked up instructors at airports and hotels, driven them to dinner, etc.

If mine are preparing for a seminar or something, I'll help carry a bag to the truck. If I'm around and they need a hand with something, and I can, I will help out.

Case in point, at the recent WMAA camp, at any given time I had at least a few of the instructors or seniors in my wagon. It just made sence since I can transport a large group to do so.

But, you most likely will not see me cutting the grass, painting the walls or washing the windows at the school.... there are limits. I'm more inclined to do more for a friend because they are a friend, rather than just an instructor or 'master', especially if they are outside my line of study.

 

[TKDman]

Lmao.....

"I wear a purple cloth around my waist, while you wear a yellow one... therefore you must do what I say!"

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Several of my instructors are my friends. I've found its true, they do accept me for who I am, however, they also tend to push me harder than other instructors who I had only a professional relationship with did.

That's a good thing, isn't it? Friendship can have it's priviledges.

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
As to carrying bags, etc...I have to disagree...but within certain parameters.

Visiting instructor, I'll help out. I've picked up instructors at airports and hotels, driven them to dinner, etc.

If mine are preparing for a seminar or something, I'll help carry a bag to the truck. If I'm around and they need a hand with something, and I can, I will help out.

Case in point, at the recent WMAA camp, at any given time I had at least a few of the instructors or seniors in my wagon. It just made sence since I can transport a large group to do so.

If anyone of any rank has more than he/she can carry, then it's
a polite, nice thing to do. It shouldn't be done just because of
who they are. The b.b.'s in my school are quite capable of
bringing their own bag into the school, and are quite capable of
opening the door for entrance/exit of buildings. If a white belt
had too much to carry, I'd be out there offering help. Rank has
nothing to do with it, and shouldn't.

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
But, you most likely will not see me cutting the grass, painting the walls or washing the windows at the school.... there are limits. I'm more inclined to do more for a friend because they are a friend, rather than just an instructor or 'master', especially if they are outside my line of study.

Regardless of line of study, I'm happy to help if it's within my
means. But I wouldn't attend a school where it's held in regard
come test time or something.