Psuedo-bunkai for the grappling craze

[Brian R. VanCise]

Most of the reinvention I have seen is crap when compared to actual grappling systems that have been around a long time. I would advise anyone who is interested in becoming good at grappling to train with grapplers in grappling systems. Please train with practitioners of Brazilian Jiujitsu, Judo, Wrestling, Sambo, etc. Learn the proper body mechanics and it will pay of in spades for you!!!

 

[arnisador]

Most of the reinvention I have seen is crap when compared to actual grappling systems

I agree, but it's the fact that it's misleading that gets to me. Some here are talking about trying to interpret their kata as expansively and imaginatively as possible, and I have no problems with that--but don't tell me that Chojun Miyagi cleverly hid the De la Riva guard in Gekisai kata.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I agree, but it's the fact that it's misleading that gets to me. Some here are talking about trying to interpret their kata as expansively and imaginatively as possible, and I have no problems with that--but don't tell me that Chojun Miyagi cleverly hid the De la Riva guard in Gekisai kata.

But it's way cool to teach "hidden" techniques.

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk 2

 

[Makalakumu]

Most of the reinvention I have seen is crap when compared to actual grappling systems that have been around a long time. I would advise anyone who is interested in becoming good at grappling to train with grapplers in grappling systems. Please train with practitioners of Brazilian Jiujitsu, Judo, Wrestling, Sambo, etc. Learn the proper body mechanics and it will pay of in spades for you!!!

I wonder about that. What if you had a guy who trained and those arts and the extrapolated on a kata technique to add some grappling to karate. It wouldn't be as good as the specialists, but then again it doesn't need to be. If you could get a karate BB and roll with BJJ blue belts that would be good enough.

 

[Koshiki]

Most of the reinvention I have seen is crap when compared to actual grappling systems that have been around a long time. I would advise anyone who is interested in becoming good at grappling to train with grapplers in grappling systems. Please train with practitioners of Brazilian Jiujitsu, Judo, Wrestling, Sambo, etc. Learn the proper body mechanics and it will pay of in spades for you!!!

Some people don't neccesarrily want to be good at grappling, per se. They want to strike, and be familiar enough with grappling, that against those not trained in grappling, the can do SOMETHING in ranges where their primary training is inefficient, even if it's mostly getting out/up and back to their comfort zone. (Although, I prefer striking from grappling range than from farther away.) BUT, I would say that don't assume that because you're a top striker, you can just figure out grappling. Get the basics from someone who grapples primarily, who has that background. I can out slappy-slappy a good deal of people, but my grappling know-how isn't worth half of a used toothpick. *Especially* not if it's a yummy mint-flavoured toothpick.

I agree, but it's the fact that it's misleading that gets to me. Some here are talking about trying to interpret their kata as expansively and imaginatively as possible, and I have no problems with that--but don't tell me that Chojun Miyagi cleverly hid the De la Riva guard in Gekisai kata.

I draw a clear distinction between interpretation and exploration. If I'm looking at interpretation, the technique has to look pretty much the same; stance, height, range, movement, and final position. If I'm looking at exploration, I don't view it as something that is actually IN the form. In that case, the form is more of a brainstorm device, like, "ooh here's a way to deal with ____ that I'd never considered! Fun!" Two different beasts, to me.

I wonder about that. What if you had a guy who trained and those arts and the extrapolated on a kata technique to add some grappling to karate. It wouldn't be as good as the specialists, but then again it doesn't need to be. If you could get a karate BB and roll with BJJ blue belts that would be good enough.

Good enough for some things, not for others. For example, it may be good enough to avoid un-trained grappling attempts, or even utilize some grappling against the untrained. It's definitely NOT good enough to not get all tangled up by a real grappler. Depends on what you want. If I wanted to learn grappling, I'd rather have some training from BJJ black belts, than get tapped out by BJJ blue belts.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Here is the kicker. If you want to be good at countering grappling then you should learn how to grapple from a qualified source! Just like if you wanted to learn to be a good striking martial practitioner you would not go and try to learn it from BJJ. You see it works both ways! Just like if you wanted to learn weapons you would not try to learn it from a Tae Kwon Do instructor. Instead you might search out a Filipino Martial Practitioner or someone from the Bujinkan, etc.

Learn the proper movement and body mechanics from people who have the experience! Then make it your own!

 

[Koshiki]

Here is the kicker. If you want to be good at countering grappling then you should learn how to grapple from a qualified source!

Oh, I hope you didn't think I meant you could effectively learn to counter decent grappling by guesswork. I meant you can try to become somewhat effective at getting that guy off you who just grabs you and starts tugging wildly, with less idea about grappling than you have. In my experience, trying to counter-grapple a grappler is futile. Unless your counter-grappling is ELBOW STRIKE TO THE HEAD, and AGAIN, and AGAIN. But that's not exactly grappling, that's refusing to grapple. I can't grapple, and if a decent grappler ever gets a hold of me, I'm probably already down and tapping!

What I meant to convey, is that who practices self-created, mediocre grappling, can probably at least disentangle themselves from someone who has never even considered the term grappling, but instinctively grabs on. Anything past that, get a source. I wouldn't self-teach a punch, and I think striking mechanics are a bit more self-evident and easy to build from scratch than grappling. You can learn to hit hard by yourself with a bag, or even without one. You can't learn to manipulate a resisting body without a resisting body...

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Leaving aside the issue of whether the application shown in the video was anything ever envisioned by the creators of the kata ...

The application shown is a low-percentage technique that will be difficult to achieve against a resisting opponent. (Even an unskilled opponent) The actual movements of the kata are sufficiently different from the movements necessary to actually execute the demonstrated ground technique that they will provide exactly zero useful practice for developing the skill necessary to pull it off. You could argue that the movements in the kata are meant to just be a mnemonic to remind the practitioner of the application, however if the practitioner is a skilled enough ground grappler to pull off such a low-percentage technique against a resisting opponent, then they really aren't going to need such a mnemonic.

 

[Koshiki]

Leaving aside the issue of whether the application shown in the video was anything ever envisioned by the creators of the kata ...

I for one don't particularly care what was originally envisioned, but that's a matter of taste.

The application shown is a low-percentage technique that will be difficult to achieve against a resisting opponent. (Even an unskilled opponent) The actual movements of the kata are sufficiently different from the movements necessary to actually execute the demonstrated ground technique that they will provide exactly zero useful practice for developing the skill necessary to pull it off. You could argue that the movements in the kata are meant to just be a mnemonic to remind the practitioner of the application, however if the practitioner is a skilled enough ground grappler to pull off such a low-percentage technique against a resisting opponent, then they really aren't going to need such a mnemonic.

I think at this point the kata ceases to be a mnemonic, and becomes instead a springboard for experimentation. But I agree, if you practice the Kata and hope to be able to do this, you will be sorely disappointed, at least in my experience. I practice the kata, I can't do this! Mostly due to a lack of skill, but partially because I am wearing a t-shirt. Another reason to always where a thick, durable jacket with wide sleeves when attacked.

 

[Koshiki]

You know what should really make an entrance, for grapple-kata junkies? Modern kata which are based around on-the-ground grappling. I'd be very excited to see a single-person, grappling style kata. Not that it would probably be a very great practice method, but it would nevertheless be interesting.

 

[K-man]

You know what should really make an entrance, for grapple-kata junkies? Modern kata which are based around on-the-ground grappling. I'd be very excited to see a single-person, grappling style kata. Not that it would probably be a very great practice method, but it would nevertheless be interesting.

The problem with that is that for kata bunkai to work in a continuous way it often relies on strikes to elicit a 'predictive' response. To an extent that can work on the ground but it is more likely to be relying on strength to apply a technique where in the standing environment body movement can often achieve what physical force cannot. I'll put myself in the basket, 'Yet to be Convinced'.
:asian:

 

[Makalakumu]

The problem with that is that for kata bunkai to work in a continuous way it often relies on strikes to elicit a 'predictive' response. To an extent that can work on the ground but it is more likely to be relying on strength to apply a technique where in the standing environment body movement can often achieve what physical force cannot. I'll put myself in the basket, 'Yet to be Convinced'.
:asian:

There are grappling drills that would qualify for these standards. Here is a quick and dirty demo of the Osaekomi kata done by yours truly back in the day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSmsoWPtd9k&feature=youtu.be

I teach this to my beginning students to give them an introduction into grappling. It's a lot of fun testing each one of these positions and seeing how they change into the next.

 

[Koshiki]

The problem with that is that for kata bunkai to work in a continuous way it often relies on strikes to elicit a 'predictive' response. To an extent that can work on the ground but it is more likely to be relying on strength to apply a technique where in the standing environment body movement can often achieve what physical force cannot. I'll put myself in the basket, 'Yet to be Convinced'.
:asian:

I'm in the same basket! But, stepping outside the standard realm of kata, I'm envisioning a ground fighter essentially choreographing a grappling match, but performed solo, as a kata is. I realize it's kind of off topic, a little, maybe, but it sure would be entertaining to watch someone attempt!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'm in the same basket! But, stepping outside the standard realm of kata, I'm envisioning a ground fighter essentially choreographing a grappling match, but performed solo, as a kata is. I realize it's kind of off topic, a little, maybe, but it sure would be entertaining to watch someone attempt!

 

[K-man]

Love it! :rofl:

... and so practical!

 

[K-man]

I'm in the same basket! But, stepping outside the standard realm of kata, I'm envisioning a ground fighter essentially choreographing a grappling match, but performed solo, as a kata is. I realize it's kind of off topic, a little, maybe, but it sure would be entertaining to watch someone attempt!

The only two man kata I have seen is choreographed and normally requires the two participants to be roughly the same size. What that means is that the kata actually become drills. I don't have a problem with drills but I almost never use them. To my mind if you were to perform a two man kata then it should work with only one of the participants knowing the kata. That then becomes continuous bunkai.

If we transfer that principle to the ground and perhaps look at Maka's example, we see a drill that is moving from one position to another really smoothly and for a grappling student I can see the value. Is it a kata? Well not by my definition. I'm not sure from the video that the partner, who was fully compliant, couldn't have resisted in such a way that it would have been difficult to transition from one position to the next. So, a great drill but not a kata. It would be interesting to see it done as a solo performance like Tony's example.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

There are grappling drills that would qualify for these standards. Here is a quick and dirty demo of the Osaekomi kata done by yours truly back in the day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSmsoWPtd9k&feature=youtu.be

I teach this to my beginning students to give them an introduction into grappling. It's a lot of fun testing each one of these positions and seeing how they change into the next.

I like the drill but it really isn't my idea of kata. A kata for me would start from a common position such as the guard or the mount and work on scenarios from both partners' perspective. I don't know enough of grappling to provide an example but what I would be looking for would be a logical sequence that begins with one move which would be stopped but that that stoppage would expose another opportunity that if stopped would lead to the next. It would assume that each technique would work if allowed so the kata requires the technique to be stopped. What that means is that as you apply a technique, you are applying it with the prior knowledge of how it can be countered. When that counter occurs you are the ready to apply the next technique and so on.
:asian:

 

[punisher73]

You know what should really make an entrance, for grapple-kata junkies? Modern kata which are based around on-the-ground grappling. I'd be very excited to see a single-person, grappling style kata. Not that it would probably be a very great practice method, but it would nevertheless be interesting.

I think the closest you are going to get are solo grappling drills that will hone in key movements that are foundational to other moves. For example, two of the better known ones are the "shrimping" drill and the "bridge" or "opa" drill.

Here are some basic drills that hone this idea.

But, anything further than that and I don't think it would be possible without a partner like Judo's kata.

 

[Koshiki]

Aha. I knew someone must have attempted it. It's every bit as entertaining as I had hoped it would be! Perhaps there's a reason that kata bunkai have not generally been envisioned as grappling...

 

[Makalakumu]

I train in karate and in Danzan Ryu Jujutsu. In this jujutsu art, they rely heavily on two person kata. I like to take a few minutes at the end of my morning workouts to go over the two person kata with myself while repeating the names for the techniques, so that I can remember them in class. A lot of the jujutsu kata look suspiciously like movements in karate kata, btw. But anyway, I suspect that this was sort of the point of the Okinawan kata, but things have been hidden and changed over the years because of secrecy and misunderstanding.