Pros/Cons of the blitz method

[Andrew Green]

Greetings.

Remember that in NHB type sparring, the opponent is quite skilled and stepping back may open for a shoot and/or grappling attempt, since you chain punched high.

Actually moving forward, like in chain punching, is a much bigger opening for a takedown then stepping back. People that are constantly moving away are hard to takedown, unless you can drive them into something, like a fence.

Trained fighters react different then untrained people. If you want something like this to work, every punch has to land hard, and you got to rock them pretty good before you drive forward. Basically what Belfort did to Silva.

Fighters basically train a reaction that when getting hit, instead of trying to get away, they drop a little and drive forward. Either forcing a clinch or going for a takedown.

 

[EternalSpringtime]

Trained fighters react different then untrained people. If you want something like this to work, every punch has to land hard, and you got to rock them pretty good before you drive forward. Basically what Belfort did to Silva.

That's why a close range punch was made to be strong in its impact, as it derives the full force that comes from the structure of the center derived from the ground. a repitition of hitting in one area will knock down the opponent for sure. Belfort technique was quite good. I saw Fedor do the same in his fights, he keeps hitting his opponents heads down until he knocks them. Same goes for Wing Chun, but the chain punches are faster since it goes in a straight motion.

 

[Si-Je]

okay. Foreward pressure constant. The blitz method (chain punching while constantly moving forward into the opponent) Keeps physical, mental, and stresses the opponent. Thus, not giving him/her time to counter, recover, or regroup their fighting stratagy.

Your power in the chain punching comes from linear striking, inertia with forward movement, your opponent's forward movement will make the punches stronger, and grouping your entire body weight behind the chainpunching by moving forward. If the opponent gets close enough to grapple then you follow through with elbows, knees, and stamp kick causing the opponent to be too unbalanced to effectively grapple or take you down. Control of the opponents head as he leans or bends over to grapple you will effectively thwart their stratagies with the takedown or grappling.

I can understand your desire to get away from a stronger attacker. But instead of stepping to the side of the opponent you step forward at a 45 degree angle, working to the side of your stronger opponent.
ex. instead of stepping this way

Opponent
|
|
|___>You

This way gives the opponent your side and vitals as they come forward. You have stopped your forward force energy, changed your structure, and basically have fallen into playing your opponent's game. Especially if their bigger and stronger than you. They know this, and will try to capitalize on your fear, and lack of equal strength to bowl you over.

Instead, move with a pivot as they come in,

Opponent
|
|
/You

This keeps them close to you so you can more easily counter and attack while re-directing their forward force/advance from you. Thus, revealing their side to you for attack, while you keep your structure, balance, and power.

Or you can do a combination of both. Attack moving forward into the opponent while pivoting to their side to defelct supiour strength like so..

Opponent
You \|

As the opponent comes into you you step forward while pivoting to the side chain punching the temple, hinge of the jaw, kidneys, floating rib, etc.
As soon as you make contact to their side you immediately continue going forward into them striking, kicking and deflecting.

Wing Chun isn't limited to line fighting. You can go forward into the opponent other ways than just straight in from in front of them. This I would not recomend if the opponent is stronger, taller, and bulkier than you. That would be foolhardy. And painful!

Just my two cents.

 

[monji112000]

Andrew Green ,


“Actually moving forward, like in chain punching, is a much bigger opening for a takedown then stepping back. People that are constantly moving away are hard to takedown, unless you can drive them into something, like a fence. “


This is what I have come to see also, but not just for takedowns. I find it pretty handy and it throws people off to move away and time things like I have seen many boxers do.
They bob and weave with amazing timing and skill.


When I drive in without the correct timing or just because to try and over power the person I normally get hit allot. It doesn't matter if I chain punch or not because they are normally swing for the fences. You take some they take some, its all about who can take the most and dish the most the fastest. ( Something I get the short end of the stick most of the time).


I am finding that timing and “covering” are really key components.


Si-je,


“I can understand your desire to get away from a stronger attacker. But instead of stepping to the side of the opponent you step forward at a 45 degree angle, working to the side of your stronger opponent. “


here something to think about when you step forward to do anything when someone is attacking you have just caused that persons attack (ie punch) to move faster. Why because you have shortened the distance between the two points. Your reaction and continued reactions have to be that much faster. BUT, if I step back and to a angle I have just created more distance from my opponent. If he continues Its obvious to me, and I have more time to react. Maybe I would want to cover and then blitz in throwing him off.

This is why I like things like Gun sao or Gaun Sao (how ever you want to spell it). You can get back and cover and large distance then jam in.
This seems to work very well for 1,2 style combinations, and many other things.


A good example of getting away and then coming in is this clip. She gets away just enough and then comes in. In reality you would follow up more but this is cutt off just for drilling purposes.
http://wingchunkungfu.cn/mpg2000/122799r.mpg


here is another one using timing and getting away it shows the Yie Tong Jit Da
http://wingchunkungfu.cn/mpg2000/121499k.mpg


here is another clip of My sigung (Duncan Leung)
talking about a technique called Gun sao kick back. It uses the the idea of timing and getting away also.
http://wingchunkungfu.cn/mpg2000/122100g.mpg

 

[Si-Je]

When I drive in without the correct timing or just because to try and over power the person I normally get hit allot. It doesn't matter if I chain punch or not because they are normally swing for the fences. You take some they take some, its all about who can take the most and dish the most the fastest. ( Something I get the short end of the stick most of the time).

If you try to overpower someone your not using WC concepts. Too much strength and effort spent.

here something to think about when you step forward to do anything when someone is attacking you have just caused that persons attack (ie punch) to move faster. Why because you have shortened the distance between the two points. Your reaction and continued reactions have to be that much faster. BUT, if I step back and to a angle I have just created more distance from my opponent. If he continues Its obvious to me, and I have more time to react. Maybe I would want to cover and then blitz in throwing him off.

This is why I like things like Gun sao or Gaun Sao (how ever you want to spell it). You can get back and cover and large distance then jam in.
This seems to work very well for 1,2 style combinations, and many other things.

If you fall into combinations you play their game. Their is no Combos in WC, just sensitivity and flowing with the opponents force. You put yourself at a disadvantage.
As for making their attack quicker, that's fine, because it will allow you to counter that much quicker. You use sensitivity, you don't always have to "see" the attack, you feel it.

 

[brothershaw]

If you try to overpower someone your not using WC concepts. Too much strength and effort spent.




If you fall into combinations you play their game. Their is no Combos in WC, just sensitivity and flowing with the opponents force. You put yourself at a disadvantage.
As for making their attack quicker, that's fine, because it will allow you to counter that much quicker. You use sensitivity, you don't always have to "see" the attack, you feel it.

Great post. I dont like chain punches for anything more than a training tool.

 

[Nobody]

Andrew Green ,


“Actually moving forward, like in chain punching, is a much bigger opening for a takedown then stepping back. People that are constantly moving away are hard to takedown, unless you can drive them into something, like a fence. “


This is what I have come to see also, but not just for takedowns. I find it pretty handy and it throws people off to move away and time things like I have seen many boxers do.
They bob and weave with amazing timing and skill.


When I drive in without the correct timing or just because to try and over power the person I normally get hit allot. It doesn't matter if I chain punch or not because they are normally swing for the fences. You take some they take some, its all about who can take the most and dish the most the fastest. ( Something I get the short end of the stick most of the time).


I am finding that timing and “covering” are really key components.


Si-je,


“I can understand your desire to get away from a stronger attacker. But instead of stepping to the side of the opponent you step forward at a 45 degree angle, working to the side of your stronger opponent. “


here something to think about when you step forward to do anything when someone is attacking you have just caused that persons attack (ie punch) to move faster. Why because you have shortened the distance between the two points. Your reaction and continued reactions have to be that much faster. BUT, if I step back and to a angle I have just created more distance from my opponent. If he continues Its obvious to me, and I have more time to react. Maybe I would want to cover and then blitz in throwing him off.

This is why I like things like Gun sao or Gaun Sao (how ever you want to spell it). You can get back and cover and large distance then jam in.
This seems to work very well for 1,2 style combinations, and many other things.


A good example of getting away and then coming in is this clip. She gets away just enough and then comes in. In reality you would follow up more but this is cutt off just for drilling purposes.
http://wingchunkungfu.cn/mpg2000/122799r.mpg


here is another one using timing and getting away it shows the Yie Tong Jit Da
http://wingchunkungfu.cn/mpg2000/121499k.mpg


here is another clip of My sigung (Duncan Leung)
talking about a technique called Gun sao kick back. It uses the the idea of timing and getting away also.
http://wingchunkungfu.cn/mpg2000/122100g.mpg

I can agree that the angle you take has a great effect on the opponent an so does moving the head. The most important thing is not getting in to a combination type battle once you take ground from the opponent let them know that you are not going to just going step back cause they punch. Instead stay an read with your eyes what they are presenting if you see them begin a attack fit your self in to them like a puzzle piece take the area of least resistance is how i fight.

Those are actually the most wing chung looking vids thing i have seen on the Internet in some time a bit better than what i have seen most of the time. With the exception of the Vids of Yipman.

 

[monji112000]

I have nothing against using the chain punch. I just don't like the idea of constantly blitzing it chain punching.

It seems like everyone seems to think this is Wing Chun and that its the "core" or trademark of our style. If you feel it works for you, great. what do I know anyway right? LOL If all the big names say to do it, then hell it must be a smart thing todo? Just use common sense.. it goes a long way.:soapbox:

 

[Nobody]

Yea, it can be bad thing like you are saying against a advanced enough opponent you will be trapped.

 

[streetwise]

Si-Je's advice on angles is very good, and if you try the basic method she outlines, you should be able to learn to maintain contact. If you do not manage to maintain contact, preferring to pop in and pop out, you will have a hard time utilizing one of WC's best weapons, sensitivity.

When it comes to the old favorite, the chain punch charge down the middle, it is a natural progression of a "what works for beginners" tool.

Advanced use of the chain punch is from contact as part of the natural flow of your forward pressure, flowing into other techniques as the opponent reacts to the chain punch.

A beginner learns that all "that sensitivity and flow stuff" is not really needed if he gets there first (on another beginner) with a furious chain punching blitz. As the student progresses, superior speed, development of short power, improving footwork, etc, allow him to continue dominating less advanced or less physically gifted practitioners with a "Hey diddle diddle, straight blast up the middle" approach. At some point, the practitioner should slow down a little, pretend he lacks whichever trait seems to let him "banzai" his fellow students,(go soft if he overpowers others, go slow if he dominates with speed) and start working the chain punch into a more developed offense.

Except for demonstrations, how often do you see really advanced practioners just run across the room like some chain punching rhino?

 

[monji112000]

Si-Je's advice on angles is very good, and if you try the basic method she outlines, you should be able to learn to maintain contact.

I don't doubt contact will be maintained.. its a question of what type of contact. Moving forward into someone fist no matter the angle most of the time isn't a “smart” idea. Unless you time it correctly and you are not too far away you create a worse scenario. Instead of trying to deal with a puch coming at X speed from X distance away, you have drastically decreased the distance and increased the speed. You are forced to rely more on your own Personal speed and physical abilities.


Have you ever played the game dodge ball? I did all the time as a kid, I loved the game. Nobody ever jumped forward.. only to the side or back and to the side. Its just common sense.

When it comes to the old favorite, the chain punch charge down the middle, it is a natural progression of a "what works for beginners" tool.

thats the point, it doesn't work 75-85% of the time. What makes it work. You have to be faster to beat his attack. OR you have to be physically stronger/taller to out punch him and deliver more power than he does. I conducted a experiment with some friends who had Thai boxing experience. Different sizes of opponents, to see if I could use this strategy, maybe I am wrong..


my conclusion: when I did deliver a blitz chain punch effectively, I knocked the person over and they got back up. Not much damage. The bigger and faster guys just laughed and beat the hell out of me.


Then, I used the chain punch effectively , to follow up for a second then kick. No matter the size or speed. Once I initiated a clean reaction then attack, then chain-punch then kick. Worked almost every time. JMO if you do the same experiment and get a different result.. well then hey continue doing what works for you.

Advanced use of the chain punch is from contact as part of the natural flow of your forward pressure, flowing into other techniques as the opponent reacts to the chain punch.

I agree with this line of thinking once contact is made you should be able to “apply” chi sao. Its just that its not so easy or simply. Sometimes yes and sometimes no. I don't believe that you will be in a “safe” position.


If for example you shoot a sop sao, he covers by putting his hands up. Thats a great way to get contact and you can continue with a “chi sao” application. Or you throw a qwan sao, that for me is a good chance to do something like that. But Wing Chun isn't limited to this aspect of fighting, and I believe this is the more dangerous approach to fighting. For me its safer to keep your distance and it helps keep the fight standing. Thats the first thing you learn in a MMA style class.

Except for demonstrations, how often do you see really advanced practitioners just run across the room like some chain punching rhino?

Honestly that the bulk of what I have seen in visiting schools. I watched someone the other day spar who was a “Ving Tsun” fighter i think that was the spelling.. It wasn't pretty. The fact was the wrestler took every punch he gave him and clinched then slammed him. It was so loud I felt the pain from the slam. I asked him if he honestly felt like the guys circular style chain-punches (I hate when people do circular chain-punches!) would stop him even if he wasn't used to getting punched. His answer was :

“maybe if the guy was bigger and caught me at the right time.. but then again maybe not. For sure not with a few beers in me.”

If its one thing I have learned is that things are allot easier when you type then on a forum, and a hell of allot harder when the guy is swinging and fighting like he means it.

If you can catch him off guard then yah the blitz chain-punch should work fine. But really just about anything will work if you catch them off guard. its all the other times that you really need to prepare for.


JMO don't listen to me wtf do i know?

 

[bcbernam777]

The thing to remember about fighting, in reality, is that it is a flux, constantly changing, constantly moving. To try and nail down a principle, and look at its pros and cons is an excercise in futility. The only relaity is the moment, nothing else, when you are trapped in that space, that time frame, with that person who wants to punch the **** out of you, it is then that theories distill themeselves into reality. Blitz, it works, so does the trap, so does the front push kick, so does the Gum to mid punch, they all work, they all have value only within the flow of the reality that you face when you square of against an opponent. If you try to create a box for yourselves by constant arguments over what works and what doesn't, you will only create a confusion for yourself that will lead to emptyness.​

 

[Si-Je]

I don't doubt contact will be maintained.. its a question of what type of contact. Moving forward into someone fist no matter the angle most of the time isn't a “smart” idea. Unless you time it correctly and you are not too far away you create a worse scenario. Instead of trying to deal with a puch coming at X speed from X distance away, you have drastically decreased the distance and increased the speed. You are forced to rely more on your own Personal speed and physical abilities.

Your not understanding dear. Moving foreward with structure and forward pressure while you deflect the punch, thus will re-direct the punch away from you, moving forward makes the attack faster sure, but it also makes your "counter attack" that much faster and doesn't give the opponent time to counter or use combination attacks.
If you step on their knee (more so than snap kicking the knee) so to speak as you move forward with your deflection punch and kick/step you will "kill' the opponents power almost completely. A good boxer can't punch well without the hip pivoting, and without their footwork. Essentially, by kicking (or as we say at our school stepping into your opponent) and deflecting the initial attack you totally throw off their balance for standing much less punching or grappling. This followed up immediately by chain punching follows through and finishes an opponents plan of attack, while helping to cover you from further punching techniques from said opponent.

When stepping 45 degrees, or zoning from an opponents attack, it is cruitial to step toward them and slightly at a 45 degree angle. The pivot is not premeditatied as much as it just happens. You only pivot when the opponent is stronger, or depending on where their weight shifts. If pivoting is not necessary, then don't do it. Come straight in with the blitz.
Stepping backwards at an angle, gives you no advante over your opponent or the fight. It just delays the enevitable, that you WILL get hit. It decreaces your options of attack, and defense, and gives control to your opponent, whether their stronger, faster, larger whatever. Takes too much time. Time for error. Time to stratagize, and thus keeping you from "feeling" your opponents intentions.
This is Wing Chun. Other arts do not fight like this, at all. Not that I've seen. No art punches like WC, no art advances forward into the opponent like WC, no art has the same or even similar stance as WC, and no other art utilizes the same principles.
These are just the very basic principles of Wing Chun. Master these, and progress. If you don't believe they'll work, then they will never work for you. If you have confidence in your teachers and teaching, training, and Wing Chun in general, these concepts will work very well against stronger larger attackers.
Trust me, my "sparring" buddie is 6'4", with arms like a gorilla! lol! His reach is twice my own! If I ran away from him, backed up, and tried to dodge, he could still punch the crap out of me. The only difference is I couldn't deflect his punches and darn sure couldn't reach that far to punch him back. Trust me again, going backwards is a losing battle.

 

[monji112000]

Blitz, it works

Your not understanding dear.

like i said if it works for you, then great. Martial arts is about personal development, so if you think its a great thing.. then go with it.

that doesn't negate what I said, its a relative thing. Not all Wing Chun "styles" feel this is a viable option most of the time.

These are just the very basic principles of Wing Chun.

well that again is relative, I guarantee if you visited a wide variety of Wing Chun Schools you wouldn't say that.

no art advances forward into the opponent

I would really think about why? with the advent of the Internet and the massive exchange if information.
Don't forget that when you say Wing Chun .... you are talking about your style.

its not a black and white issue. I believe in learning and training with both the pros and cons of something. Looking at the whole picture and not making blind decisions.
basic common sense.


:drinkbeer

 

[Nobody]

The reason i say the blitz is just so so, is you can be taken down by single or double leg take down as you rush forward this does not mean i do not get hit doing this just means i use the bridge to control the upper torso an than go to the legs. There are other throws that could truly hurt someone if they did not have the experience with Wing Chung.

There is something i do think is funny is when you watch new students to Wing Chung spar when both try to use it at the same time.

 

[brocklee]

like i said if it works for you, then great. Martial arts is about personal development, so if you think its a great thing.. then go with it.

that doesn't negate what I said, its a relative thing. Not all Wing Chun "styles" feel this is a viable option most of the time.



well that again is relative, I guarantee if you visited a wide variety of Wing Chun Schools you wouldn't say that.


I would really think about why? with the advent of the Internet and the massive exchange if information.
Don't forget that when you say Wing Chun .... you are talking about your style.

its not a black and white issue. I believe in learning and training with both the pros and cons of something. Looking at the whole picture and not making blind decisions.
basic common sense.


:drinkbeer

Your concepts of wing chun seem similar to WT. Si-je has a very firm concept of Ip Man wing chun which anyone that studies true wc would recognize.

You said:

thats the point, it doesn't work 75-85% of the time. What makes it work. You have to be faster to beat his attack. OR you have to be physically stronger/taller to out punch him and deliver more power than he does. I conducted a experiment with some friends who had Thai boxing experience. Different sizes of opponents, to see if I could use this strategy, maybe I am wrong..

--------------------------------
You are already faster then the opponent if you're using WC, and they aren't, because punch comes from center mass and ride the center line to the other persons center mass. Its direct and appears to be faster because its traveling a shorter distance. If you're using WC and you are developed somewhat in skill, these punches will be 85-90% effective because you will know when to shoot. If someone is attacking, chain punching may stun the other person and knock them back. I certainly wouldn't use more then a few chain punches because the opportunity will only be there for a short time before the other person decides to close his hole. Then I will chose another line of attack. My lineage teaches to disrupt the other's structure and get them off center...then shoot.

You state you need to be stronger/taller. Remember that wc was created with a girl in mind. Not a UFC competitor. If your using strength, then you are not relaxed. Not being relaxed adds resistance and is a loss of true WC power. It comes down to flow, joint alignment and energy transfer.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

Coming from a straight blast jkd opinion, I beleive the concept is sound. The fists open the door to elbow knee/range which you can throw more power into. You don't need to knock a guy out with your fists when you have a pair of perfectly good elbows. I also understand there's a wing chun technique called crippling step, very subtle and quick. Every stuation is different..etc.

 

[Si-Je]

It's all timing. I don't "blitz" someone from across the room. They see you coming.
But once close enough to strike, sure do. Punch them till they fall down.

 

[brocklee]

It's all timing. I don't "blitz" someone from across the room. They see you coming.
But once close enough to strike, sure do. Punch them till they fall down.

Hi, glad to see yer postin

 

[KamonGuy2]

Ali - dude, I am confused as to your problem. But you sound like a passionate guy. I have trouble finding big guys who do grappling so I would love to roll with you and work on my ground game, although I am not as experienced as you seem to be.

Going back to topic, I have found mixed success with the blitz method. I got knocked out at one tournament as I committed too much. My opponent moved and gave me a hook to the jaw!!

I have found that it can work wonders on TKD guys, but struggles with BJJ guys (as that is what they want - you to close in).

When I fight I will 'stalk' my opponent (ie creep in, until my guard is close enough). This makes long range kicking/striking null and void.

You must remember that a lot of good MMA fighters have seen lots of different martial arts and expect people to close in