Wasn't that a passing comment from the Chicago camp?
dearnis.com
Master Black Belt
I want to clarify something and add some things; my intial post post on this thread was not as well thought out as it should have been; to make the thought more concise... "I frequently heard Professor use the term Jr. Professor with Michael; I have not been in active contact with Michael since both he and I left the IMAF and can't comment on anything since then."
Second, Michael busted his @## to make the benefit seminar he mentioned above a big sucess.
Third, Michael consistently hosted events with Professor (and with other Modern Arnis instructors at Professor's direction) in the Philly area, and had been doing so long before I moved here.
Fourth, not to turn this into an IMAF debate, or to speak for Michael, but I suspect he was told, as I was told, "You help Jeffery."
Chad
Second, Michael busted his @## to make the benefit seminar he mentioned above a big sucess.
Third, Michael consistently hosted events with Professor (and with other Modern Arnis instructors at Professor's direction) in the Philly area, and had been doing so long before I moved here.
Fourth, not to turn this into an IMAF debate, or to speak for Michael, but I suspect he was told, as I was told, "You help Jeffery."
Chad
M
mtb
Guest
TJ,
patience ,my boy.
patience ,my boy.
MTB,
I would like to add to my previous statement.
If you wish to out of respect to the others to drop a title that Gm Remy Presas gave you then that is your privilege.
Although you could continue to use the title, in spite of everyone. Why you might ask? Every person using one or more of the following title of Datu, Senior Master, Professor, or Grand Master or even Master of Tapi Tapi have taken some heat at one time or another. My Recommendation is to take the heat and to come out of the fire stronger than before.
Just My Opinion
Best Wishes
Rich
I would like to add to my previous statement.
If you wish to out of respect to the others to drop a title that Gm Remy Presas gave you then that is your privilege.
Although you could continue to use the title, in spite of everyone. Why you might ask? Every person using one or more of the following title of Datu, Senior Master, Professor, or Grand Master or even Master of Tapi Tapi have taken some heat at one time or another. My Recommendation is to take the heat and to come out of the fire stronger than before.
Just My Opinion
Best Wishes
Rich
OP
OP
DoctorB
Guest
Hello Chad,
I really do not think the topic of this thread has anything to do with whether or not MTB, was loyal to the late Professor Presas or even whether or not he was compelled to support Jeff Delaney, the major question was can and should he be using the title of "professor" in conjuction with the art of "Modern Arnis" in general and "Presas style Modern Arnis" in particular?
I have not qualms about his loyalty or that he hosted seminars and camps. That is all a matter of record - a good one at that!
However, he and anone else who wants to assume the title of "professor" and attaches it to "Modern Arnis" is going be be strongly questioned by a number of people who believe that there was only one and there will never be another 'Professor'
of Modern Arnis!
It is matter that is centered on 2 major points, personality and martial arts skills. Have you been able to indentify anyone who has both in ample abundance to make you feel that you could/ would support their use of the title?
There has been a lot of talk about titles and rank, but in the end doesn't all come down to ability? The titles and rank are paper oriented, but ability is both demonstrated and apparent when viewed by others. My goal for the 2003 Symposium is to give all of the instructors the opportunity to demonstate their Modern Arnis ability regardless of rank and title. There will be a good number of conversations, there will be time to discuss the similarities and differences in approaches, but the telling differences will be in ability and presentation. That is part of the reason that I invited MTB to be on the program - in short to show us that the title has been earned based on ability and not merely to disable an insulting association with a personal action. My invitation was genuine and I accept MTB's decision to decline as genuine, as well.
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
OP
OP
DoctorB
Guest
Originally posted by Rich Parsons
MTB,
I would like to add to my previous statement.
If you wish to out of respect to the others to drop a title that Gm Remy Presas gave you then that is your privilege.
Although you could continue to use the title, in spite of everyone. Why you might ask? Every person using one or more of the following title of Datu, Senior Master, Professor, or Grand Master or even Master of Tapi Tapi have taken some heat at one time or another. My Recommendation is to take the heat and to come out of the fire stronger than before.
Just My Opinion
Best Wishes
Rich
Rich, that is easy advice to give, but it will be MTB, who has to take the heat for using the title, especially since the word
"Junior" is being omitted. The actual title was "Professor, Jr.",
or at least so it would appear from a couple of other posts. Secondly the title was given to offset and cancel a play on words.
I seriously doubt that MTB's use of punong, guro or a blending of the two titles would be inappropriate or challenged, as would the continued usage of the title "professor". Think about it for a few minutes before replying.
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
DoctorB,
I did think on it. I even slept on it over night.
Who are these little whining cry babies, who get upset over a name. That is the first thing that comes to my mind. Yet, that is unfair, since many people called GM R. Presas, Professor out of respect and love and they cannot come to grips with calling someone else by the same name.
I think of this as the spoiled child who is in their twenties or older and gets upset at mom or dad for getting married again. How dare they try to replace someone, I cared so much about. Well, I do not think that Mr. Bates AKA Professor Junior Bates, is using the name to take over the world of Modern Arnis. If he is, then I wish him luck for there are already many groups that cannot get along and that would be one tough miracle to pull off.
Some people are still upset about the title of Grand Master, and those that are, do not associate themselves with anyone who uses that title in Modern Arnis. Yes there was heat, but has it resolved anything???? Did I not state that there would be heat, i.e. This thread.
Yet, the final decision has to be that of MTB, and no one elseÂ’s.
He has to live with that decision, not me, is true statement, but let us be honest, should he change is last name as an option? I think not!
I do agree the first time I heard the title in reference to MTB at a camp I was a little taken aback. And then someone had to point the problem, and then I said a logical solution has been given.
In My opinion, it is not for us to decide, but I would not want MTB to make a decision based upon some of my posts that would make him wonder, for it would always make me wonder.
To take this argument to the next level, I say we do not use the title of Lakan anymore either. I also think that we should not use the term Modern Arnis anymore. I do not think we should have red or black on any of our belts anymore. Any and all of these could have a special meaning to someone out there who might get offended. Note: This list is not complete it is only a quick small sample size for I do not wish to write everything I know that is dear to me about Modern Arnis or GM Remy Presas, nor do I wish to spend the rest of my life finding out what it is that everyone else wants on the list.
These are just my thoughts and opinions. And yes, I did think about them. Just because they do not agree with something you might think is the best practice, that does not mean they do not have any thought behind them. Even if I thought the use of the title is not the best practice, who am I to tell someone else how to present themselves.
Anotehr example might be the title of Doctor, the MD's do not like it when Ph. D's or Ed D or even D.O. which is the medical field are used as a sign of respect or status. They believe it to be a sign of here respect as Doctors of Medicine. So, to tell someone that they cannot use a name or title because someone else has used it, to me is not right. Now, that is for me, feel fine to disagree with me. It is your right to disagree with me.
With respect to those who train :asian:
(* Edited Commas and spelling *)
Michael,
If the Professor gave you permission to use the title of "Professor" in the context of Modern Arnis, then it belongs to you. However, please forgive me if I do not use that title to personally address you.
You should know, however, that it is not a reflection of a lack of respect for you as a person nor question of what you have contributed to Modern Arnis or how you aided the Professor when he was sick.
Since GM Presas's death, there have been non-stop questions and discussions regarding the Professor's will, his intentions, MOTTs, WOTTS, and DOTTS, including this issue as well.
I wish you the best as you move on in the arts and best of luck for your seminar this weekend.
Best regards,
Palusut
If the Professor gave you permission to use the title of "Professor" in the context of Modern Arnis, then it belongs to you. However, please forgive me if I do not use that title to personally address you.
You should know, however, that it is not a reflection of a lack of respect for you as a person nor question of what you have contributed to Modern Arnis or how you aided the Professor when he was sick.
Since GM Presas's death, there have been non-stop questions and discussions regarding the Professor's will, his intentions, MOTTs, WOTTS, and DOTTS, including this issue as well.
I wish you the best as you move on in the arts and best of luck for your seminar this weekend.
Best regards,
Palusut
The use of a Modern Arnis title by anyone other than the Professor was unusual for most of the camps I was at--especially early on (even though some people had titles). The Professor himself wasn't offended if you called him 'Remy' off the mats. It's odd that we care so much about them now.
B
bloodwood
Guest
This all started with DoctorB reporting that he saw an ad in IKF magazine. Here is where the problem is. Stating your title while promoting a seminar in an international forum such as IKF where most of the people reading the magazine don't know who you are, and don't know that you dropped part of your title because it looks better and more impressive. Magazines don't care what you put in an ad, just as long as you pay. IKF is not the ethics police for Modren Arnis or any other style, but we the practitioners of the arts are. Maybe it is pettiness and political bs but it is a way to keep folks honest. Had the "Jr." been part of this ad, this thread probably would not exist.
OP
OP
DoctorB
Guest
Hello Bloodwood,
Thanks for your input, you might have hit the nail dead center
with regard to the title containing the "already acknowledged" term "Jr.". I really can not say for sure because it did not happen that way...
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
OP
OP
DoctorB
Guest
Originally posted by Rich Parsons
DoctorB,
I did think on it. I even slept on it over night.
Who are these little whining cry babies, who get upset over a name. That is the first thing that comes to my mind. Yet, that is unfair, since many people called GM R. Presas, Professor out of respect and love and they cannot come to grips with calling someone else by the same name.
I think of this as the spoiled child who is in their twenties or older and gets upset at mom or dad for getting married again. How dare they try to replace someone, I cared so much about. Well, I do not think that Mr. Bates AKA Professor Junior Bates, is using the name to take over the world of Modern Arnis. If he is, then I wish him luck for there are already many groups that cannot get along and that would be one tough miracle to pull off.
Some people are still upset about the title of Grand Master, and those that are, do not associate themselves with anyone who uses that title in Modern Arnis. Yes there was heat, but has it resolved anything???? Did I not state that there would be heat, i.e. This thread.
Yet, the final decision has to be that of MTB, and no one elseÂ’s.
He has to live with that decision, not me, is true statement, but let us be honest, should he change is last name as an option? I think not!
I do agree the first time I heard the title in reference to MTB at a camp I was a little taken aback. And then someone had to point the problem, and then I said a logical solution has been given.
In My opinion, it is not for us to decide, but I would not want MTB to make a decision based upon some of my posts that would make him wonder, for it would always make me wonder.
To take this argument to the next level, I say we do not use the title of Lakan anymore either. I also think that we should not use the term Modern Arnis anymore. I do not think we should have red or black on any of our belts anymore. Any and all of these could have a special meaning to someone out there who might get offended. Note: This list is not complete it is only a quick small sample size for I do not wish to write everything I know that is dear to me about Modern Arnis or GM Remy Presas, nor do I wish to spend the rest of my life finding out what it is that everyone else wants on the list.
These are just my thoughts and opinions. And yes, I did think about them. Just because they do not agree with something you might think is the best practice, that does not mean they do not have any thought behind them. Even if I thought the use of the title is not the best practice, who am I to tell someone else how to present themselves.
Anotehr example might be the title of Doctor, the MD's do not like it when Ph. D's or Ed D or even D.O. which is the medical field are used as a sign of respect or status. They believe it to be a sign of here respect as Doctors of Medicine. So, to tell someone that they cannot use a name or title because someone else has used it, to me is not right. Now, that is for me, feel fine to disagree with me. It is your right to disagree with me.
With respect to those who train :asian:
(* Edited Commas and spelling *)
Hello Rich,
Thanks for your reply; I have some other thoughts on what you have osted, but better stated ina face to face to avoid misunderstandings and perhaps problems coming from others, not you or I.
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
DoctorB,
That is not a problem. And I think I understand why?
When we meet next time .
We can discuss this and many more issues.
Rich
:asian:
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Thanks for your response, and I think I understand. I respect you doing what you were told, and I can relate.
When Prof. was in his final days, there was a lot of chaos. A lot of things were said and done that might come back to haunt people later. What is important now is how we move foward. Getting answers to our past always helps us to do just that.
TAPPS: Welcome back! Next time I'm in Buffalo I'll have to bring my lady to occupy yours. That way we can go to the Canadian Ballet without interuption!
PAUL
When Prof. was in his final days, there was a lot of chaos. A lot of things were said and done that might come back to haunt people later. What is important now is how we move foward. Getting answers to our past always helps us to do just that.
TAPPS: Welcome back! Next time I'm in Buffalo I'll have to bring my lady to occupy yours. That way we can go to the Canadian Ballet without interuption!
PAUL
D
David Hoffman
Guest
I've just come across this old thread while perusing this forum. I wish I had seen it earlier as I could have responded then. As it was left unsettled I feel obligated to respond.
Actually both Doctor Barber and Professor Bates are correct and there is no need for any dispute between them. Doctor Barber absolutely was active with Professor during the period he lists above. In fact, Doctor Barber was one of the most active promoter/students during that time. I know this for a fact as Professor had me send many correspondences in his name to Doctor Barber from our address at 30 Mason Street. I know that Professor held Jerome in the highest regard. I never heard otherwise, even after the split that Doctor Barber has recounted.
The same is also true of Michael Bates, Michael became especially active with Professor in the late nineties just as Michael has recounted. Professor did indeed consider Michael a friend and enjoyed his many stays with him. Both Professor Michael Bates and Doctor Barber were very active with Professor, though perhaps at different times, and he held both of you in very high esteem indeed!
That you never crossed paths is very common in Modern Arnis. There are very few people who travelled to many seminars, most, if not all, made their contribution in their own region. This does not reflect poorly on their contribution or depth of knowledge. There are very few people in Modern Arnis that I saw at seminars in different regions. As I recollect, in the whole East and Middle Northern United States the only people I recall seeing in multiple regions are Tim Hartman and Chuck Guass. Travelling was not a prerequisite to being a serious student.
Also the announcement made by Professor was just as Michael said, but as I recall it was made at his school not the location he mentioned. But that is a small and irrelevant point. In fact, it was my suggestion to Professor that he give the title to Michael. We were more looking at his karate martial arts title in general, not in the context of Modern Arnis as at the time he was not yet high ranking. I was driving with Professor from Atlantic city were we spent some days on vacation during a seminar tour that started in Northern New England. I would often recommend people for consideration to the International Board and other things I thought would benefit them. In this case, Professor really liked Michael, as did I, and Professor had his eye on him as someone who showed enthusiasm for promoting the art. So yes, I suggested the idea which we discussed and Professor took under advisement. Later, when we had arrived at Michaels school and witnessed a grading test, Professor did indeed make the announcement that Michael was to be called Professor Bates. He later added as an aside that this was Professor JG, or Junior Grade as used in the military. However, the announcement was Professor Bates, the JG was more of an afterthought by Professor, sort of an inside joke. Certainly Michael is entitled to use the title he was given. Michael went on to become an important friend and senior instructor. He does not deserve the scrutiny and criticism he has received above. Michael did just as he said, he followed the wishes of his (our) GrandMaster. The same is true of Doctor Barber during his active period. Both deserve our respect for their achievements in Modern Arnis and deserve each others respect! Professor never did anything to intentionally hurt his students, I understand that emotions run high on this issue as I have posted elsewhere, but I am absolutely certain that Professor would been hurt by this bashing of Michael Bates, his good friend!
Actually both Doctor Barber and Professor Bates are correct and there is no need for any dispute between them. Doctor Barber absolutely was active with Professor during the period he lists above. In fact, Doctor Barber was one of the most active promoter/students during that time. I know this for a fact as Professor had me send many correspondences in his name to Doctor Barber from our address at 30 Mason Street. I know that Professor held Jerome in the highest regard. I never heard otherwise, even after the split that Doctor Barber has recounted.
The same is also true of Michael Bates, Michael became especially active with Professor in the late nineties just as Michael has recounted. Professor did indeed consider Michael a friend and enjoyed his many stays with him. Both Professor Michael Bates and Doctor Barber were very active with Professor, though perhaps at different times, and he held both of you in very high esteem indeed!
That you never crossed paths is very common in Modern Arnis. There are very few people who travelled to many seminars, most, if not all, made their contribution in their own region. This does not reflect poorly on their contribution or depth of knowledge. There are very few people in Modern Arnis that I saw at seminars in different regions. As I recollect, in the whole East and Middle Northern United States the only people I recall seeing in multiple regions are Tim Hartman and Chuck Guass. Travelling was not a prerequisite to being a serious student.
Also the announcement made by Professor was just as Michael said, but as I recall it was made at his school not the location he mentioned. But that is a small and irrelevant point. In fact, it was my suggestion to Professor that he give the title to Michael. We were more looking at his karate martial arts title in general, not in the context of Modern Arnis as at the time he was not yet high ranking. I was driving with Professor from Atlantic city were we spent some days on vacation during a seminar tour that started in Northern New England. I would often recommend people for consideration to the International Board and other things I thought would benefit them. In this case, Professor really liked Michael, as did I, and Professor had his eye on him as someone who showed enthusiasm for promoting the art. So yes, I suggested the idea which we discussed and Professor took under advisement. Later, when we had arrived at Michaels school and witnessed a grading test, Professor did indeed make the announcement that Michael was to be called Professor Bates. He later added as an aside that this was Professor JG, or Junior Grade as used in the military. However, the announcement was Professor Bates, the JG was more of an afterthought by Professor, sort of an inside joke. Certainly Michael is entitled to use the title he was given. Michael went on to become an important friend and senior instructor. He does not deserve the scrutiny and criticism he has received above. Michael did just as he said, he followed the wishes of his (our) GrandMaster. The same is true of Doctor Barber during his active period. Both deserve our respect for their achievements in Modern Arnis and deserve each others respect! Professor never did anything to intentionally hurt his students, I understand that emotions run high on this issue as I have posted elsewhere, but I am absolutely certain that Professor would been hurt by this bashing of Michael Bates, his good friend!
OP
OP
DoctorB
Guest
Thank you for your kind words, David.
In reading your post, I can agree with what you have stated, particularly about the traveling to seminars as not being the indicator of being a serious student. It all comes back to skills for me.
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
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