Prison Overcrowding
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
i mean think it through.
40 years ago, prison was nothing but HARD WORK, crappy food and isolation.
and not many people went back
these days?
computers, cable tv, gyms, conjugal visits, and the return rate on prisoners is higher than ever.
Hard work and crappy food: PUNISHMENT, which worked
computers and conjugal visits: rehab, which doesnt work
hand sword is while good intentioned, 180 degrees out of synch with reality
they only way to keep these people from comming BACk to prison is to make prison, as it once was, somewhere they DONT want to be.
the IDEA that "if we show them that they have some worth as people, they wont commit crimes" is bleeding heart fantasy daydreaming at it's worst.
People dont do crime because "they have no self worth", they do crime because they are too lazy to get a damned a JOB and EARN thier way through life. It is EASIER to steal than to earn. It is easier to sell drugs than to get up and go to work.
Bring back prison industry. Farms, and such. After 10 years of working the fields in the sun, they wont want to come back. Not to mention prison farms run a PROFIT. Eliminate ANY and ALL comforts, no gyms, no libraries, no computers, no conjugal visits, nothing but stone walls and hard work.
Watch the numbers of people comming back sink.
40 years ago, prison was nothing but HARD WORK, crappy food and isolation.
and not many people went back
these days?
computers, cable tv, gyms, conjugal visits, and the return rate on prisoners is higher than ever.
Hard work and crappy food: PUNISHMENT, which worked
computers and conjugal visits: rehab, which doesnt work
hand sword is while good intentioned, 180 degrees out of synch with reality
they only way to keep these people from comming BACk to prison is to make prison, as it once was, somewhere they DONT want to be.
the IDEA that "if we show them that they have some worth as people, they wont commit crimes" is bleeding heart fantasy daydreaming at it's worst.
People dont do crime because "they have no self worth", they do crime because they are too lazy to get a damned a JOB and EARN thier way through life. It is EASIER to steal than to earn. It is easier to sell drugs than to get up and go to work.
Bring back prison industry. Farms, and such. After 10 years of working the fields in the sun, they wont want to come back. Not to mention prison farms run a PROFIT. Eliminate ANY and ALL comforts, no gyms, no libraries, no computers, no conjugal visits, nothing but stone walls and hard work.
Watch the numbers of people comming back sink.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
Source?
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
are you kidding me?
are you REALLY trying to say that you think return rates on prisoners was HIGHER in the past than it is now?
are you REALLY trying to say that you think return rates on prisoners was HIGHER in the past than it is now?
Empty Hands
Senior Master
I don't know. Do you? After all, in another thread, I posted hard evidence that in the glory days of the 50's when "everyone knows" how great education was, only half of adults graduated from High School. All you are going off of here is supposition, personal bias/preference, and unfounded nostalgic thinking from a time you didn't even live through.
I also know that in times such as medieval Europe, crime was rampant even though the punishments were so severe that not even you would countenance them. You can't say what the case was now or in the 50's without evidence.
Thinking on crime is especially prone to perception. People think crime is worse now than in the past. The rates are lower. People think pedophiles and rapists are around every corner. The crime is rare and most of the perpetrators are family members. And so on.
You made the claim, now support it.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
http://www.cor.state.pa.us/stats/lib/stats/BJS Recidivism Study.pdf
thats shows a 5% jump in returning inmates in just ten years, from 83 to 93
This is signifigant because the first study, for inmates released in 83, was conducted AFTER the touchy feely "prison is for rehab, not punishment" crap started in the 70's
I know you will find a reason to poo poo these numbers, but they do in fact support what I am saying. As prisons get more amenities, the rate of people comming BACK to prison goes up
thats shows a 5% jump in returning inmates in just ten years, from 83 to 93
This is signifigant because the first study, for inmates released in 83, was conducted AFTER the touchy feely "prison is for rehab, not punishment" crap started in the 70's
I know you will find a reason to poo poo these numbers, but they do in fact support what I am saying. As prisons get more amenities, the rate of people comming BACK to prison goes up
Empty Hands
Senior Master
They don't, actually. Your numbers show a total recidivism rate of 67.5% in 1994. However, the recidivism rate since that time has gone down, and is now 60% as of 2005. According to you, amenities have only increased in that time due to the touchy-feely liberal justice system. So by your hypothesis recidivism should have increased - but it hasn't.
As usual, there is a simple explanation for everything - which is wrong.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
cite?
Empty Hands
Senior Master
Sorry. LINK. There are other individual state collections, but that is a three state averaged study.
One theory is that the less attractive a stay in prison is, the greater lengths to which criminals will go to avoid being sent there. Where now you sometimes hear "I didn't use a gun because it's a longer sentence" you might then have heard "I called the witness--I'm not going back to jail" (or had someone die resisting arrest rather than allow himself to be caught). This happened with the Three Strikes laws--people would resist harder and more violently if they were facing arrest for their third felony.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
the big problem with that study EH is that it is only 3 states, Maryland, Minnesota and Ohio and those 3 states are relatively low crime.
that tends to skew the statistics.
Now, after the discussions the other night, i did call some of my older family members, and I learned some interesting things.
In the 50's PEOPLE by and large obeyed the law. Not only because it was the right thing to do, but because of a FEAR of prison.
Do people today fear prison?
Chris Rock said it best, "if you live in a old project, a NEW prison doesnt sound so bad"
That being said, i do think that everyone can agree that one of the points to prison is to keep the public safe from the scumbags for awhile.
Basic human nature being what it is, if we KNOW that prison i s a BAD place to be, people will be less likely to go back.
In terms of how to deal with over crowding, tent cities work, as does making more crimes capitol offenses that can recieve the death penalty.
Dont make fewer things into crimes, make the people AFRAID to comitt the crimes.
And i know, someone will pipe up and say "no other western country has the death penalty, it is uncivilized" blah blah blah
well, we are not the Socialist Wusstopia of Western Luxenstein, or where ever
they can do what works for them, we dont tell them what to do with thier scumbag criminals, so they can zip it about how we handle ours.
that tends to skew the statistics.
Now, after the discussions the other night, i did call some of my older family members, and I learned some interesting things.
In the 50's PEOPLE by and large obeyed the law. Not only because it was the right thing to do, but because of a FEAR of prison.
Do people today fear prison?
Chris Rock said it best, "if you live in a old project, a NEW prison doesnt sound so bad"
That being said, i do think that everyone can agree that one of the points to prison is to keep the public safe from the scumbags for awhile.
Basic human nature being what it is, if we KNOW that prison i s a BAD place to be, people will be less likely to go back.
In terms of how to deal with over crowding, tent cities work, as does making more crimes capitol offenses that can recieve the death penalty.
Dont make fewer things into crimes, make the people AFRAID to comitt the crimes.
And i know, someone will pipe up and say "no other western country has the death penalty, it is uncivilized" blah blah blah
well, we are not the Socialist Wusstopia of Western Luxenstein, or where ever
they can do what works for them, we dont tell them what to do with thier scumbag criminals, so they can zip it about how we handle ours.
Gordon Nore
Senior Master
I heard one of Janet Reno's aids being interviewed on CBC radio years ago. He resigned over the "three strikes" and gave two reasons:
- Prisons would have more elderly inmates, requiring more expensive health care. What do you do with them? Dump 'em on the street where they can't look after themselves, or keep 'em in jail after they've long since the lost the ability or desire to re-offend.
- This individual argues that many recidivists reach an age where they tire of doing time and settle into more socially productive behaviour. Longer incarceration reduces the chances of people making the choice to be productive.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
what is wrong with "you have screwed up, not once, not twice but THREE times. Ergo, you cant play anymore. Enjoy life in prison"
what is wrong with holding people responsible for what they do?
what the hell happened to this country? why do we say 'it's too hard" rather than "it's the right thing to do, no matter how hard it is" like our grandparents generation did?
what is wrong with holding people responsible for what they do?
what the hell happened to this country? why do we say 'it's too hard" rather than "it's the right thing to do, no matter how hard it is" like our grandparents generation did?
Empty Hands
Senior Master
Because the guidelines remove all discretion. Even many judges are against them, because the guidelines tie their hands. They are then required to send someone to jail for many years for a crime that may not warrant it. For instance, particularly in California where petty theft is counted, people have received sentences of 25-to-life for stealing (separate cases) golfclubs, nine videotapes, four cookies, and a slice of pepperoni pizza. Also considering that multiple "strikes" can arise from the same case, we can easily end up with unjust results.
I don't think anyone, even you, can justify 25-to-life for stealing four cookies. Not even most murderers serve that long.
Gordon Nore
Senior Master
...and terribly expensive.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
it is supposed to be three FELONIES
how does a slice of pizza become a felony?
not to mention the FACT that we are still talking about a THIEF
how is it unjust to lock up a THIEF??
how does a slice of pizza become a felony?
not to mention the FACT that we are still talking about a THIEF
how is it unjust to lock up a THIEF??
Empty Hands
Senior Master
In California, if the person in question has any prior convictions for theft, then even petty theft is considered a felony.
An important part of justice is punishment commensurate with the crime. Your question is a bit like asking what is wrong with the death penalty for jaywalking. A life sentence for petty theft is not just.
Nope, sorry, try again.
Nothing; it's generally fair. (I'm sure there are scorner cases.) But is it smart? Is it a good strategy?
Empty Hands
Senior Master
Proving you wrong is barely even any fun anymore, you just make it too easy.
Here is confirmation of the nine videotapes story. From the story: "Andrade was sentenced to life in prison. It happened because California is the only state where a misdemeanor crime can be made into a third strike. They call it a wobbler: So long as the first two crimes were clearly felonies, then a third crime be it stealing a bike or a pizza, as happened to others, or videos, can send a person to prison for 25 years to life."
