Preventing and Dealing with Concussions

[Gerry Seymour]

I would not want to spar without a mouthpiece. I heard horror storries of people getting uppercutted and they bite off their tongues.

You'd have to stick your tongue out for that to happen - it sounds more like what you described it as: horror stories. More likely outcomes would be cracked/broken teeth, and I have been told (though I'm not sure if it's accurate) that not having a mouthpiece can make it easier to get KO'd.

 

[Tez3]

You'd have to stick your tongue out for that to happen - it sounds more like what you described it as: horror stories. More likely outcomes would be cracked/broken teeth, and I have been told (though I'm not sure if it's accurate) that not having a mouthpiece can make it easier to get KO'd.

It may depend on the type of gumshield but having seen a lot of KOs in MMA where wearing gumshields is compulsory it doesn't seem to make a lot of difference. I've never heard of anyone biting their tongue off so likely just a story.

 

[Transk53]

You'd have to stick your tongue out for that to happen - it sounds more like what you described it as: horror stories. More likely outcomes would be cracked/broken teeth, and I have been told (though I'm not sure if it's accurate) that not having a mouthpiece can make it easier to get KO'd.

With Tez, but possibly the movement of the jaw could make difference, without a gum shield. Would more TKO though for me. The boxer loosing his gum shield, then getting hit by a quick opportunity.

 

[Tez3]

With Tez, but possibly the movement of the jaw could make difference, without a gum shield. Would more TKO though for me. The boxer loosing his gum shield, then getting hit by a quick opportunity.

Watching the Olympics there were a few boxers who kept losing their gum shields, it actually looked deliberate so that the ref would stop them but it's a risky thing to do.
One of the first things I was taught to do when I started reffing MMA was to get a gum shield out of a KO'd fighter's mouth, not too easy but I was taught the trick to it.
The double gum shields were popular for a while, does anyone use one of those?

 

[Transk53]

Watching the Olympics there were a few boxers who kept losing their gum shields, it actually looked deliberate so that the ref would stop them but it's a risky thing to do.
One of the first things I was taught to do when I started reffing MMA was to get a gum shield out of a KO'd fighter's mouth, not too easy but I was taught the trick to it.
The double gum shields were popular for a while, does anyone use one of those?

No, but I know a fair few peeps I can ask.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Keep in mind that this is from the perspective of a long fist circular system

My school has 5 different levels of sparring. This way we can minimize the risk of concussions better. Kids stay within the first 3 levels (attack only, defend only, beginner) Attack only and defend levels = beginner student vs intermediate or advanced student. This allows the beginner to find their control without worrying about hurting a fellow beginner student. Beginner level = beginner student vs beginner student. At this point students have the ability to hit lightly at a higher percentage.

Intermediate level is for students who are now able to pull punches. In my opinion pulling punches is a skill within itself because you have to be able to see your attack far enough in advance to be able to make the decision on the spot to either let it fly or take some or all of the power out of a punch at moments notice. Students master this skill so that they can use it in Advanced sparring when necessary.

Advanced level sparring - This is the highest intensity that students will go against each other. This requires all of the skill sets learned in the lower levels before. At this level we try to keep the intensity under 70%. This is based on what is minimum acceptable intensity for a pulled punch. At this level we expect that our partner will be able to interfere with a punch enough so that it doesn't land solid or at full force. If we that a power punch is going to land without resistance then we pull the punch. The punch still lands hard but it doesn't land anywhere near what it would have if the student didn't pull the punch.

#1 Rule: Too many hits to the head = pulled from sparring that day. If we see that someone is just eating punches then we pull them from sparring that day. We take it as they are having an off day and their mind is not focused on the task.

#2 Rule: Sparring when exhausted is not allowed - We do kung fu which means sloppy techniques can result in serious and permanent injury. If I can no longer control the accuracy of my low shin kick then my sparring partner is at risk for having their knee permanently damaged, all because I was sloppy and tired. When a person is exhausted they are no longer concerned about control as they are mustering every remaining amount of strength to just throw simple punches. Being exhausted doesn't mean that punches will be weaker. Being exhausted means that punch becomes more difficult.

In my mind I think boxing and MMA are able to punch safely when exhausted because of the paths that the punches usually take, but for Kung Fun and other striking martial arts, we throw a wider range of punches that take different flight paths, and that's where the danger lies.

 

[Transk53]

Keep in mind that this is from the perspective of a long fist circular system

My school has 5 different levels of sparring. This way we can minimize the risk of concussions better. Kids stay within the first 3 levels (attack only, defend only, beginner) Attack only and defend levels = beginner student vs intermediate or advanced student. This allows the beginner to find their control without worrying about hurting a fellow beginner student. Beginner level = beginner student vs beginner student. At this point students have the ability to hit lightly at a higher percentage.

Intermediate level is for students who are now able to pull punches. In my opinion pulling punches is a skill within itself because you have to be able to see your attack far enough in advance to be able to make the decision on the spot to either let it fly or take some or all of the power out of a punch at moments notice. Students master this skill so that they can use it in Advanced sparring when necessary.

Advanced level sparring - This is the highest intensity that students will go against each other. This requires all of the skill sets learned in the lower levels before. At this level we try to keep the intensity under 70%. This is based on what is minimum acceptable intensity for a pulled punch. At this level we expect that our partner will be able to interfere with a punch enough so that it doesn't land solid or at full force. If we that a power punch is going to land without resistance then we pull the punch. The punch still lands hard but it doesn't land anywhere near what it would have if the student didn't pull the punch.

#1 Rule: Too many hits to the head = pulled from sparring that day. If we see that someone is just eating punches then we pull them from sparring that day. We take it as they are having an off day and their mind is not focused on the task.

#2 Rule: Sparring when exhausted is not allowed - We do kung fu which means sloppy techniques can result in serious and permanent injury. If I can no longer control the accuracy of my low shin kick then my sparring partner is at risk for having their knee permanently damaged, all because I was sloppy and tired. When a person is exhausted they are no longer concerned about control as they are mustering every remaining amount of strength to just throw simple punches. Being exhausted doesn't mean that punches will be weaker. Being exhausted means that punch becomes more difficult.

In my mind I think boxing and MMA are able to punch safely when exhausted because of the paths that the punches usually take, but for Kung Fun and other striking martial arts, we throw a wider range of punches that take different flight paths, and that's where the danger lies.

A cracking post.

Being exhausted doesn't mean that punches will be weaker. Being exhausted means that punch becomes more difficult.

Absolutely. At that point, the end move comes. That could be many ways. The biggest point is not to get to the point of exhaustion. Yes I fully know that, but percentages, removing techniques that make you look good, take engery. Clear cut endings sound so difficult at times, but they are really not.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yes, I was going to reply to the comments about the headgear. Perhaps it helps from a legal liability perspective, but it looks like recent science points to it having little benefit. And the perceived protection may cause folks to give/take more head shots.

I look at headgear like helmets. You can ether take a hard blow with it on or take a hard blow with it off.

 

[Transk53]

I look at headgear like helmets. You can ether take a hard blow with it on or take a hard blow with it off.

Yes. Personally to me, head gear, but in actual respects, is useless.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You'd have to stick your tongue out for that to happen - it sounds more like what you described it as: horror stories. More likely outcomes would be cracked/broken teeth, and I have been told (though I'm not sure if it's accurate) that not having a mouthpiece can make it easier to get KO'd.

Exactly. If you like your teeth then use a mouth piece. You were told correctly about the cracked / broken teeth because of no mouth piece. I've seen that first hand with a guy I was sparring with. He chipped his tooth and I didn't even hit him with my attacks (got it on video lol). In a self-defense situation, I actually target my opponent so that I can crack his teeth.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yes. Personally to me, head gear, but in actual respects, is useless.

Depends on the type of strike hitting the head. For example, an elbo to the face. Worst case scenario without the caged head gear is that you'll get facial bone fractures and a concussion. Worst case scenario with the caged head gear is that you'll get a concussion and you may not even get that depending on how the caged head gear interferes with my elbow landing solid.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Depends on the type of strike hitting the head. For example, an elbo to the face. Worst case scenario without the caged head gear is that you'll get facial bone fractures and a concussion. Worst case scenario with the caged head gear is that you'll get a concussion and you may not even get that depending on how the caged head gear interferes with my elbow landing solid.

This is the main reason I'd consider headgear: to allow people to attack the face. Simple physics says there should be some level of concussion protection, too, in theory. I haven't done the math on it, but my quick estimation is that it's a pretty minor difference in the overall force that translates into movement of the head (and possibility for concussion). Of course, that theoretical protection is most probably more than offset by the different approach ("taking" more headshots, opponent possibly hitting with more abandon).

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is the main reason I'd consider headgear: to allow people to attack the face. Simple physics says there should be some level of concussion protection, too, in theory. I haven't done the math on it, but my quick estimation is that it's a pretty minor difference in the overall force that translates into movement of the head (and possibility for concussion). Of course, that theoretical protection is most probably more than offset by the different approach ("taking" more headshots, opponent possibly hitting with more abandon).

The debate is interesting because it turns into a head gear on vs head gear off discussion where concussions are the focus. It ignores the fact that concussions happen without the head gear as well. So if a person is going to get a concussion either way then the question should probably be "What other injuries does the head gear protect against, not including concussions?"

 

[Tez3]

I think it's impossible for any type of helmet or head guard to prevent concussion simply because when a head is struck/hits something the brain hits the skull and it's that that caused the damage. The type of helmet horse riders, motor cyclists and bicycle riders wear is intended to stop penetration and cracking of the skull. However they don't always stop horrible injuries and death. More positive signs of recovery for Stig Broeckx | Cyclingnews.com. He had two bleeds on the brain and is making very slow progress.

some teams are taking concussion seriously. Pro Cyclists Tested for Concussions Mid-Race - Slater Vecchio Does Pro Cycling Have a Concussion Problem?

 

[Transk53]

Depends on the type of strike hitting the head. For example, an elbo to the face. Worst case scenario without the caged head gear is that you'll get facial bone fractures and a concussion. Worst case scenario with the caged head gear is that you'll get a concussion and you may not even get that depending on how the caged head gear interferes with my elbow landing solid.

Yes. A deliberate elbow is always going to follow through, in this sense, no head guard will suffice, to counter act the intent.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think it's impossible for any type of helmet or head guard to prevent concussion simply because when a head is struck/hits something the brain hits the skull and it's that that caused the damage. The type of helmet horse riders, motor cyclists and bicycle riders wear is intended to stop penetration and cracking of the skull. However they don't always stop horrible injuries and death. More positive signs of recovery for Stig Broeckx | Cyclingnews.com. He had two bleeds on the brain and is making very slow progress.

some teams are taking concussion seriously. Pro Cyclists Tested for Concussions Mid-Race - Slater Vecchio Does Pro Cycling Have a Concussion Problem?

Exactly. Which is why I think the debate about it stopping concussions is not a good one. The only thing that people are going to say is make an assumption that it's safer to be without a headgear while totally ignoring that the headgear may be protecting the person against other injuries.

I for one don't wear head gear to protect myself from concussions. I also don't tell students that it will protect them from concussions. I use rules, training, and guidelines to help minimize the risk of concussions. I make sure that students take into consideration their sparring partner's safety.

We acknowledge punches that could have been bad news, even when they don't land. Just last week I avoided a terrible head shot from the other instructor. It didn't hit me but it could have. The only reason it didn't land was because the Instructor pulled the punch. I acknowledge right away that I screwed up and that the punch that he could have landed probably would have dazed or knocked me out. By acknowledging a clear possibility he doesn't feel the need to actually do it to prove it. It's honesty on my end to admit when I messed up. It wasn't my head gear that protected it me, it was the ability and mindset of my sparring partner that did.

He could have easily just follow through and hit me. Then watch me look dazed, then hit me when I was dazed. Then I'm out for a few weeks because of a concussion that I get to be angry about. After I heal then I'm going to try to pay him back by giving him a concussion. To me this pattern is destructive and eventually it turns into a situation where the safety of the students isn't factored in because everyone is trying to punish each other. What I've notice is that we are able to avoid concussions mainly because of the care and skill of our sparring partner. 90% of the time the sparring partners save each other form concussions. The other 10% comes from mistakes and learning the hard way, what a technique does before truly understanding it. Jow Ga has a punch that compresses the spine and didn't realize, that was the function of that punch until one of the students got hit with it, and I saw it in video in slow motion. Now that punch is ban from connecting. We can throw the punch in sparring but not with the intent or purpose of landing it.

 

[marques]

I like elbows and I put the protections on the elbows.
More two disadvantages of headgear: vision reduced (or too much face exposed) and changing in range. If it is closed in the front with some acrylic, change in range again (that will seem shorter than is in fact). In that case, I would never consider the use of headgear as a standard.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The debate is interesting because it turns into a head gear on vs head gear off discussion where concussions are the focus. It ignores the fact that concussions happen without the head gear as well. So if a person is going to get a concussion either way then the question should probably be "What other injuries does the head gear protect against, not including concussions?"

Part of the debate mirrors what has happened over the years in American football, though. In the NFL, particularly, as they have increased the armoring of the players, hits have gotten harder and more intense, and players have done less to avoid the crushing impacts. There's a concern that the same thing may happen with headgear in sparring and competition; the competitors may hit harder than they otherwise would (assuming they have to because of the gear, or that they can because of the gear), and they may accept more shots to the head/face because they don't hurt as much. I remember one study (or it may have been a meta-study) that suggested concussion rates were slightly higher with headgear, when comparing similar competitions. I've looked for that study again recently, but couldn't find where I'd made any notes about it.

 

[Tez3]

We acknowledge punches that could have been bad news, even when they don't land.

We had a chap throw a punch sparring with someone, it missed but he dislocated his shoulder!

 

[KangTsai]

You'd have to stick your tongue out for that to happen - it sounds more like what you described it as: horror stories. More likely outcomes would be cracked/broken teeth, and I have been told (though I'm not sure if it's accurate) that not having a mouthpiece can make it easier to get KO'd.

I need a mouth guard always or I'm left with several cuts in my mouth thanks to my braces. Tounge danger is the least of one's problems.