Mariachi Joe
Brown Belt
To be fair at least Bush served. Clinton ran to Moscow
President Bush to Receive Purple Heart Medal
- Thread starter michaeledward
- Start date
To be fair at least Bush served. Clinton ran to Moscow
Give it a rest, Joe. Whenever anyone says anything that doesn't utterly praise and revere Our Beloved Decider the True Believers say "Yeah, but BIll Clinton (got a *******, wasn't in Vietnam, eats live puppies and sacrifices them to Satan). Bill Clinton has his faults. George W. Bush is a disaster and has been one for his entire life. A more venal, stupid, disconnected, narcissistic, thieving, power mad mass murderer has never sat in the White House in my life or that of my aging parents, possibly ever. The Republican Talking Points mantras of praising Chimpy's cushy job in the ANG - from which he deserted during time of war - while denigrating men who actually served - Kerry, Murtha, McCain and Gore - is a disgrace to the United States Armed Forces.
OP
michaeledward
Grandmaster
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2003
- Messages
- 6,063
- Reaction score
- 82
- Thread Starter
- #23
Mariachi Joe ... that was an intersting sentence or two.
George Bush's absence from the National Guard for a period of greater than a year is still unaddressed and unexplained. The term for such periods of absence is 'Desertion'.
But, the comment about Clinton 'running to' Moscow; what are you attempting to infer? Young Bill Clinton earned a Rhodes Scholarship; awarded each year to 32 of the most gifted young men (at the time) in American, to study in one of the most prestigious learning institutions in the world. During his time abroad, he visited other nations; which is one way people learn about the world.
George Bush, before becoming President, had never left North America. And, although serving, after he received one million dollars of United States taxpayer training to pilot aircraft, did not show up for training.
You know, in the early 80's, a college colleague of mine visited Moscow. I remember sitting in her dorm room listening to her stories of the visit. All of us wanted to visit Moscow then.
It seems odd, to hear you use the visit as a slur. I wonder if this political shorthand you are using, even makes any sense to you today. What the hell is so bad about visiting Moscow?
George Bush's absence from the National Guard for a period of greater than a year is still unaddressed and unexplained. The term for such periods of absence is 'Desertion'.
But, the comment about Clinton 'running to' Moscow; what are you attempting to infer? Young Bill Clinton earned a Rhodes Scholarship; awarded each year to 32 of the most gifted young men (at the time) in American, to study in one of the most prestigious learning institutions in the world. During his time abroad, he visited other nations; which is one way people learn about the world.
George Bush, before becoming President, had never left North America. And, although serving, after he received one million dollars of United States taxpayer training to pilot aircraft, did not show up for training.
You know, in the early 80's, a college colleague of mine visited Moscow. I remember sitting in her dorm room listening to her stories of the visit. All of us wanted to visit Moscow then.
It seems odd, to hear you use the visit as a slur. I wonder if this political shorthand you are using, even makes any sense to you today. What the hell is so bad about visiting Moscow?
Tellner, every now and again, a hammer smites down on a nailhead nice and squarely.
Well done for a fine "The Emperor Has No Clothes!" post :tup:. I think that it is pertinent to the topic too, given that the starting point for this conversation.
Matt, as ever, wonderful to have an informed opinion on the table :rei:.
Well done for a fine "The Emperor Has No Clothes!" post :tup:. I think that it is pertinent to the topic too, given that the starting point for this conversation.
Matt, as ever, wonderful to have an informed opinion on the table :rei:.
First, I think its a nice gesture. Second, its nothing official.
It's somewhat related to what Andy said. I've received a Purple Heart too. I've not been injured in combat. It was given to me by my grandfather. Honestly, if this were anyone other than Bush, things would be different. Would you consider it so horrible if a father gave his son a purple heart after he survived a vicious battle with cancer? Or after a crippling car wreck? Or perhaps something a bit more emotional, like overcoming after a brutal divorce? If I were critically injured, it would be close to tear jerking if my grandfather put a purple heart on my shirt... That's the kind of stuff that makes people cry at movies. But, Bush does it! What a horror movie!
If you want to make a political game out of this, I suppose you have the right. The guy has the right to do with his medals what he wants. Shoot, he can even give them to Bush to "throw away" if he wanted :uhyeah:
It's somewhat related to what Andy said. I've received a Purple Heart too. I've not been injured in combat. It was given to me by my grandfather. Honestly, if this were anyone other than Bush, things would be different. Would you consider it so horrible if a father gave his son a purple heart after he survived a vicious battle with cancer? Or after a crippling car wreck? Or perhaps something a bit more emotional, like overcoming after a brutal divorce? If I were critically injured, it would be close to tear jerking if my grandfather put a purple heart on my shirt... That's the kind of stuff that makes people cry at movies. But, Bush does it! What a horror movie!
If you want to make a political game out of this, I suppose you have the right. The guy has the right to do with his medals what he wants. Shoot, he can even give them to Bush to "throw away" if he wanted :uhyeah:
OP
michaeledward
Grandmaster
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2003
- Messages
- 6,063
- Reaction score
- 82
- Thread Starter
- #26
The question remains; should the 'Commander in Chief' accept a medal that is given to those who are "wounded our killed" in action by an enemy of the United States.
Does, or does not, accepting a medal under the circumstances described, diminish the meaning of medal for those who have or will receive the medal otherwise.
And ... you are increasing the hyperbole with phrases 'horror movie'. I don't think any who think the President should not accept the medal have escalated the language as much as you have.
Incidentally, I think the political game being played here is being played by Mr. Thomas and Congressman Carter.
tradrockrat
2nd Black Belt
The question is irrelevant to me since the real question is - "Should a man refuse a gift from another man who thinks he deserves it?"
What a human being should do superceeds what a president - which is after all just an office, not a man - should do when it matters only to the two men and does not affect the opperations of that office. And no - I do not believe that accepting a gift from a soldier affects the daily opperations of the job of president.
My personal feelings - that the whole thing is is silly and a political ploy- doesn't enter into it because it's nobody's business but the two men in question.
JMHO
The story said the fellow was offered a personal meeting with the president that was to take place 10 days ago.
Does anyone know of the President actually accepted the medal or not?
Does anyone know of the President actually accepted the medal or not?
OP
michaeledward
Grandmaster
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2003
- Messages
- 6,063
- Reaction score
- 82
- Thread Starter
- #29
This is not Tom and Frank down the street. One of the two men involved is the President of the United States; and is my President.
Do you really want to argue that what the President does, shouldn't matter to the American people?
OP
michaeledward
Grandmaster
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2003
- Messages
- 6,063
- Reaction score
- 82
- Thread Starter
- #30
YES! Some things are absolutely irrelevant if they do not affect the country. Do you really care if Bush has dinner with an old friend from Texas? Or if he gets a Christmas present from an old college buddy? Or how about a jersey from some college he visits? Do I care what the president does? Yes, but not to that degree of detail. I don't want to go through EVERY single event in the man's life. Is he breaking the law? Is he doing something that is compromising the constitution or the country in ANY way? (yes, I know you will think of Monica, but we have a guy committing perjury, not just an affair). This interaction with a private citizen should not be making headlines.
I don't think that it's the interaction, per se, that has annoyed people mrhnau. It's more the idea that he somehow merits a Purple Heart because of all the 'emotional wounds' he's taken.
I'm not going to put across my political views on this in case I spark others to do the same. That's not because I don't want to hear what people think but rather that I reckon if our members freed the restraints they've thoughtfully placed on themselves whilst speaking of this issue it would be a 'locked thread' in a very short time.
I'm not going to put across my political views on this in case I spark others to do the same. That's not because I don't want to hear what people think but rather that I reckon if our members freed the restraints they've thoughtfully placed on themselves whilst speaking of this issue it would be a 'locked thread' in a very short time.
OP
michaeledward
Grandmaster
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2003
- Messages
- 6,063
- Reaction score
- 82
- Thread Starter
- #33
OK ... so there should be personal space for the President.
And since mrhnau brings up Monica Lewinsky, would the perjury ever have occurred if the new 'personal space' conservatives weren't digging through his personal life? There is a direct causal relationship between the affair - which came first, and you are telling me it is none of our business - and the perjury. If they (you) weren't digging for personal dirt (A), testimony under oath (B) would never have happened.
I'm pretty certain that President Clinton's interactons with a certain private citizen should not have made headlines either.
Hypocrit.
yes
Was he impeached for the affair? I don't think so. Are you by chance claiming democrats don't go searching for dirt? These absolutely stupid games that are desperate attempts to pin ANYTHING on Bush are nothing but dirt digging. Politics in all its glory. I hate it just as much when Dems do it as Reps. However, you seem to glory in the Dems digging up dirt, as long as it attempts to crucify your favorite villians de jour.
Dealing with Monica, I think what happened was a tragedy. I think Clinton using the WH and his influence to have an affair was a tragedy. I think the wasting of money probing this mess was a tragedy. I think the timing of bombing Bosnia (or was it the asprin factory?) was a tragedy. I think the time/money wasted in impeachment was a tragedy. I also think the perjury was a tragedy.
I doubt I'll hear similar comments from you dealing with any attempt to find dirt on Bush. How much time and money have we wasted trying to pin things on Bush? How much energy has been expended?
Mike, you have to understand something. For the neocons - and G-d willing more of them will be cons in a few years - the plutocrats and the witch-burning fundamentalists hypocrisy is no longer a sin. Only wimpy liberals and a few fossil RINOS like Arlen Specter care about that any more. Hypocrisy is a political strategy and tactic officially and explicitly used by the RNC.
OP
michaeledward
Grandmaster
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2003
- Messages
- 6,063
- Reaction score
- 82
- Thread Starter
- #36
If the Independent Council wasn't digging for dirt on White Water - dirt that never materialized - there would have been no Paul Jones inquiry, and no testimony under oath for perjury. There is no way around it. The impeachment for perjury has a direct causal relationship to oral sex. Those who prosecuted President Clinton for impeachment did so under the guise that no President is entitled to personal space -- -- or because they were perverted voyuers "we are outraged by sex, but we want to know every detail" (Didn't Newt Gingrich just say that).
And, very little energy has been spent, and very little taxpayer money has been wasted on President Bush. He had a rubber stamp Republican Congress for his first six years in office. Unfortunately for him, the Justice Department is catching up with Congressmen Delay, Cunningham, and Ney --- Look soon for Young from Alaska to fall, and a guy from Florida is singing pretty strong too.
Wow, we've gone from discussing a war veteran graciously offering his Purple Heart Medal to President Bush to comparing that generous gift to a person in a position of power having sex with a subordinate and political party bashing.
Also, to be fair to mrhnau, he wasn't the one the one to bring up fraternization in this thread, it was brought up at post #22.
Also, to be fair to mrhnau, he wasn't the one the one to bring up fraternization in this thread, it was brought up at post #22.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
So it sounds like the couple met with Mr. Bush, and Mr. Bush accepted the Purple Heart.
There are tactful and gracious ways to decline an inappropriate but well-intentioned gift, without insulting the giver and still acknowledging the intention of his act.
Apparently Mr. Bush lacks the insight to recognize this is an inappropriate gift, and/or he lacks the tact and grace to decline it.
There are tactful and gracious ways to decline an inappropriate but well-intentioned gift, without insulting the giver and still acknowledging the intention of his act.
Apparently Mr. Bush lacks the insight to recognize this is an inappropriate gift, and/or he lacks the tact and grace to decline it.
How do we know that this wasn't done though? The vet in question was rather exhilarated about the trip and meeting the President, but it curiously says nothing about accepting the medal or what the president said when it was presented.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Michaeledward's post #30 seems to indicate it.
It isn't explicit, but it seems to read as if Mr. Bush accepted it, while expressing the notion that he hadn't earned it.
a couple of more quotes to add to it, taken from the online news article linked to in Post 30:
"Thomas said the Purple Heart he presented (past tense) the president has special meaning to him because the injury he suffered to earn it occurred just after a friend, Richard Peterson, lost his life attempting to save him."
"Carter later called Thomas to inform him that the president was very moved by the gesture and would like the couple to present it in person."
"Thomas took a copy of the original citation showing the origin of the actual medal and presented it as a companion piece with the citation he drew up for the president."
Sounds to me like Mr. Bush accepted it.
