Preparing to Fight?

[KamonGuy2]

Great responses guys,really, honest answers.I hope we can continue to learn from each other.By the way the fellow using Choy Lay did use technique,the system is geared for street fighting,basic but effective.I used to like watching Bernd Wagner demonstrate how he would use technique against anything people would throw at him,Sifu Emin too.Yes, fighting is not pretty,but personally I believe there are a few individuals capable of executing spot on technique.Again,thank you for the feedback.Were all in this together....

Whilst Emin is a pretty good chunner, his fights are still pretty sloppy. Even the debacle he had with William Cheung was a very sloppy affair. The point is that it doesn't matter. If you survive (win) then you have done well. I doubt Emin would care if he looked sloppy whilst fending off attackers who were aiming to kill him, as long as he won!

'Technique' done against anything that you know is coming is easy. It is when you are in that streetfight and you are attacked from behind or when you are a little drunk, or sitting down etc. I know everyone would like to see wing chun (or any martial art) done gracefully, it never happens though

 

[qwksilver61]

Uhhhn! I definitely know he is not about sloppy! he is/ executes Master level technique.....I have met and trained under his banner.I am not trying to start a Wing Tsun war but sloppy I would not say..........Please out of respect.....ask any experienced Wing Tsunner about his technical skill before you go judging!With due respect! He was Sifu Kieth Kernspecht's senior level Fighter! With noted proof of his ability.If you cannot respect him as a master,you do not know him,or his reputation.I trained personally with Sifu Steve Brandon under the Wing Tsun Banner,I have met,trained with GM. Leung Ting and I would be hard pressed to disrespect someone who was personally endorsed by GM leung Ting or GM Kieth Kernspecht.You obviously have no knowlege of expertise or linneage or respect.Sifu Emin is in my book not just simply a brawler,he can deliver,and he is humble enough to not try and start **** with other linneages.I met him he is most humble .Either get your head out of the clouds,or take lessons.
Most real Wing tsunners can deliver.This page is for people who promote the art,not bashers of people who love this art.....remember that was then this is now,do your homework....

 

[matsu]

not one to get involved in spats of any sort,let alone lineage ..... i have to say whooooa..... qwik buddy i dont think i read anything insulting to your lineage in the previous post.

KG said his fights were sloppy not he was not good,and it was in context as he rightly stated all fights are messy/sloppy and even most wing chun masters would get drawn into a scrap.there was no disrespect shown or personall attack on his personna,simply stating that even the best chunners would be happy to win and that however good you are a scrap is a scrap!
my master sinclair regularly tells us fighting is not clean and precise and you must use the simplest techniques,IF you remember them,you can to get the job done as quickly as you can.and get out!

so take a breath and re-read the post.
please?.
matsu

 

[qwksilver61]

Ok,I will Thanks everyone....I will chill.I apologize...to everyone.Anywho, Sifu Emin is a master practician level instructor who is currently anything but sloppy,that may have been then,but this is now.Take it easy all including me...Thanks Matsu.

 

[KamonGuy2]

I think there has been a misinterperatation. We are talkinga bout REAL fights, not technical skill in performing wing chun in a classroom!!

There is no doubt that Emin is one of the most well known chunners out there, and undoubtedly has skill.

The point was that in real fights, technical abillity is rare. The example I was mentioning was the 'fight' between two of the biggest names in wing chun - Bozteppi and William Cheung and that the fight was incredibly sloppy. It is no reflection on Bozteppi or Cheung's technical ability (although I don't really like Cheung whatsoever). The proof is there. There are no videos of chunners performing fights with incredible technical ability (and no, classroom 'playfighting' does not count)

Fights come down to simple things - ability to throw a hard punch, ability to take a punch, good footwork and good mental control.

But if you guys can find me any clip/proof of a REAL fight where technical control and ability is shown then please do so.

 

[geezer]

There is no doubt that Emin is one of the most well known chunners out there, and undoubtedly has skill...

The point was that in real fights, technical abillity is rare...
Fights come down to simple things - ability to throw a hard punch, ability to take a punch, good footwork and good mental control.

As you guys know, I'm a WT guy and in my opinion Emin is one of the best fighters out there. That said, Kamon is spot on. I've seen a few good brawls where one of the parties was highly skilled...but what actually went down looked really sloppy. 90% of their technique and training went right out the window. I think that's true of most people under the stress of a real fight. In Sifu Emin's case, the 10% he had left in the William Cheung challenge was more than I'll ever have in my life, so I'm good with that. And, remember that challenge fight was a very long time ago.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Exactly. I would be the first to say that Kevin Chan (my sifu) will probably look sloppy in a fight, but I would put good money on him winning every time and he is one of the most skilled practitioners of martial arts (not just wing chun) I have ever seen.

The confusion seems to be between skill and looking sloppy. You can be a good fighter and take out the best fighters in the world and still look sloppy. Even the cage fighters who train every day and work under sport conditions can look sloppy. And that is a fight that is performed under rules!

And I hope that people don't think I am slamming wing chun or Emin Bozteppi. Emin was just an example of how the best can look sloppy in a fight. Reccomendation - look at youtube quickly for 'real wing chun fights' and you'll see what I mean

 

[qwksilver61]

And I stand corrected! Thanks to the both of you Gentlemen.Hey,a great debate is worth more than any argument!:soapbox:

 

[brocklee]

This is KINDA on topic but I saw a guy try and use karate technique in a bar fight and it was hilarious. He got pounded! lol ok, carry on.

 

[dungeonworks]

Well, I think its a common misconception that you're supposed to fight with "technique". Drills or "techniques" are to give you attributes and abilities that carry over in to application, though often people (in Wing Chun) try to repeat them as if they are paint by numbers solutions and applications in themselves. I can't tell you how many people I've seen try and pull off their drills in application, or become human windshield wipers with "If it didn't work on this side, I'll quick shift and shift to this other side to repeat it here." Or become encyclopedias of drills with "If he does this, I'll respond with this preset combo of nifty responses I drilled in chi sao, but if he does this or that, then I'll do this other set." Or combinations thereof.

When you are in a fight, you're not fighting with Wing Chun. You're fighting with your self. Its you that's doing the fighting, not the art. And I don't see that as just a problem inherent to Wing Chun, but people in all arts are susceptible to it.

If I'm reading your post with a correct understanding, this is nearly exactly how my old Koeikan Sensei taught, and with the same reasoning. The deep stances, exaggerated hip/shoulder rotation is all for attributes. In a fight, you move an inch and it feels like 2 feet which is why we practiced with deep stances and wider footwork. If showed in our full contact sparring as well as kickboxing.

 

[KamonGuy2]

This is KINDA on topic but I saw a guy try and use karate technique in a bar fight and it was hilarious. He got pounded! lol ok, carry on.

Just to give a little defence for karate...
Soem karate is bad, some karate is good. Many styles aren't designed for street confrontation, just like wing chun isn't designed for sport. The good styles know how to translate some of the moves to be used for sport or streetfighting.

I did one karate style where it was all touch contact (where you hit and pull back, barely touching your opponent). It was rubbish
The style I do now is great. I come away sweating and actually know if I hit hard or not
The competitions are full knockdown. The sensei is not one of these people who will do a complicated five piece technique to defend himself. He will simply hit the person as hard as he can, and I can vouch that his punches are powerful.

I think it is a shame that certain schools let their styles down. In my wing chun class I try to ensure that students have a good traditional base, but also know how to use those techniques for real

 

[dungeonworks]

This is KINDA on topic but I saw a guy try and use karate technique in a bar fight and it was hilarious. He got pounded! lol ok, carry on.

I saw a You Tube video of two Wing Chun/Wing Tsun masters (Chueng vs Boztepe) try and use there technique that may have looked funnier!!! :lfao:

Seriously though, one bad showing is not indicative of the entire style.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Exactly. Whatever style you choose there are some good and bad clips on there. Even our video for Kamon got a few criticisms saying that we were too aggressive!!

 

[iwingchun]

I think that all is the training and the sparring you do! If you go to your wing chun lesson and do sparring then you don't have to afraid anything. Here is some videos with sparring http://www.wing-chun.ws/index.php?o...w=article&id=198-in-pairs-sparring-&Itemid=58

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Nyrotic Excellent Post. If you train self defense or a fighting art how do you use it if you don't fight with it?

I totally agree. My Sifu often graded us on how well we fought we are Art. During class we did drills. We also did flowing Chi Sau or Free stlye Chi Sau. We also did blinded folded free style chi sau. Meaning i was blinded folded while two people attacked me randomly. I learn quick to use all my senses and stick to my opponent when they got close. You get tired of getting slapped in face afterwhile. After about a month my blocks improve significantly.

We do various drills:
1.Stand in corner and block various strikes with one hand!(Hooks, Jabs, Upper Cuts, Right and Left straight cross, Palm strikes etc.) Strikes were thrown at a medium speed not all out

2.Practice blocking against kicks(Use feet and hands). This usually would start slow but eventually go to all out. You take turns attacking and defending.

3.Free Sparring(Light Sparring Kicks and Hands)

4.Hard Sparring(With Equipment on)

5.Sparring with hands only.

6.Sparring with feet attacks only.

7.Sparring multiple attackers.

Yea but with out fighting with your art how can you really be prepared. Dan Chi Sau, An San Shou drills are great for timing and accuracy. But for free flowing attacks under pressure you need to spar. I hate when schools don't spar. But I suggest you get people from different styles including boxing to spar with.

Ok, so as it stands, it seems that many Wing Chunners (Almost regardless of lineage) do not do much in terms of actually preparing their knowledge of Wing Chun to actually use it in a fight.

Many individuals claim that there is no sparring in their system, and upon closer inspection I can understand why that belief may be held. Still, without some sort of full speed/power exercise against a resisting opponent, I find it very difficult to actually use Wing Chun when put under pressure without this sort of training.

So I ask you, what sort of things do you do to prepare you Kung Fu for a fight? Sparring? Drills?