Powerful Government Accountability Office report confirms key 2004 stolen election fi

[arnisador]

I like Thomas Sowell too, sgtmac_46, but could you turn down the volume on that .sig?

 

[arnisador]

There doesn't have to be a vast conspiracy. Just enough people acting independantly to cause a problem.

Yup. It's amazing what can emerge from these individual actions, even if they aren't coordinated.

I agree that we should all care. However, the technology is in a state of flux right now. Surely it won't be long before we're voting by the Internet from our own homes (with all the problems that will bring)?

 

[mrhnau]

There doesn't have to be a vast conspiracy. Just enough people acting independantly to cause a problem.

We have verified problems with the election (machine malfunctions, miscommunications, disinformation, etc) ccombined with various inquiries and studies, as well as Diebold bragging they will be proud to ddeliver the vote to Bush, to cause a concern.

Was it rigged? Who knows.
But, we should all care.

He is the thing... there is always going to be some kind of cause for people being disgruntled. There will be butterfly ballots, "rigged" machines, hacked data, ignorant people... there will always be one side that will cry, demand recounts, claim it was stolen, ect...

Get machines that are as secure as possible. Have both sides check them. Make it as secure is humanly and technologically possible. Thats the best we can do. Errors are going to happen, and its going to be on both sides. I'd be just as happy to remove dead people from the polls and effectively stop double voting.

what I -don't- want to see going on is another debaucle like the Bush-Gore election, with years of court cases and people up on stands, crying that they -think- their vote was counted wrong. At this point, its a moot point. Bush is in. He is not going to be removed. If you want to find problems and potential fixes, thats fine. Lets find potential problem areas. Fix them. Going forward, point to your -positions- rather than at the court systems in an attempt to win elections. Lets hope -both- sides have a good election system to back them up.

MrH

 

[arnisador]

He is the thing... there is always going to be some kind of cause for people being disgruntled. There will be butterfly ballots, "rigged" machines, hacked data, ignorant people... there will always be one side that will cry, demand recounts, claim it was stolen, ect...

Absolutely. There will always be a way to suggest that things weren't fair.

We do need to consider how to limit (not eliminate) challenges. The country must be able to move forward.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I like Thomas Sowell too, sgtmac_46, but could you turn down the volume on that .sig?

A little LOUD for you there, arnisador? Is that better?

 

[arnisador]

Ah, that's better! I see the "where/were" typo is fixed too. It's also a great point--the story of poorer-than-dirt Abraham Lincoln should be an inspiration to be people.

 

[Ray]

There doesn't have to be a vast conspiracy. Just enough people acting independantly to cause a problem.

Yes, we republicans have vastly improved our election stealing techniques since the bozo job at the Watergate Hotel.

 

[Phoenix44]

The actual result of the election is moot...we have the president we have, and he's done what he's done. What I find puzzling is that anyone would argue against an investigation in the face of widespread suspicion, and then to dispute any findings suggesting there was a problem. That's NOT moot. That's important because it speaks to the future, what is needed to fix problems, and to guard against future problems. And if you WON the election, and there wasn't tampering, don't you want this issue put to bed once and for all?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Ah, you all took proper Ninja training huh?

 

[Ray]

And if you WON the election, and there wasn't tampering, don't you want this issue put to bed once and for all?

They never will be put to bed. More than one election has had it's problems, like the Nixon-Kennedy election. If my candidate doesn't win, then I do my best to support the new president.

 

[Makalakumu]

They never will be put to bed. More than one election has had it's problems, like the Nixon-Kennedy election. If my candidate doesn't win, then I do my best to support the new president.

Have you taken a look at some of the allegations made? Have you looked at the findings of the GAO report? Doesn't that shake your faith in ANY future election? Sure, there have been problems with elections in the past, but these problems are TOTALLY new and are (potentially) worse then anything our country has dealt with before. The potential for fraud is limitless and that fraud does not have to be limited to being perpetrated by republicans. At the very least, I think that we, as Americans, need to be very cognizant of the limitations of this new voting technology. We need to investigate. If people broke the law, they need to be held accountable. People should not be elected via fraudulent elections in America. We can do better.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

There are enough alegations that they need to be investigated, problems fixed, and violators punished. I'm still waiting to see what happens in 2008. I honestly don't care, Bush, Gore, Kerry, all to me are losing options, but, what other choices did we have? If only more people would run. It sucks only having to choices. /sarcasm

 

[Tgace]

Loosers always cry FOUL the loudest. There was no conspiracy. ANY election can be tampered with...and they probably all have been by ALL sides.

http://rantworld.blogs.com/rantworld/2004/11/a_brief_history.html

In their 1996 book "Dirty Little Secrets: The Persistence of Corruption in American Politics", Larry Sabato and Glenn Simpson offer a detailed history of vote fraud in the U.S. Their conclusion is that vote fraud has been with us ever since we've had elections, and that it was experiencing a resurgence in the 1990's, when the book was written. Sabato is a well-respected political science professor fom the University of Virgina who has consulted for both Democrats and Republicans.

On the subject of voting fraud, Sabato and Simpson say:

For much of the last century and a good part of this century, elections in many states and localities became contests of the voting fraud capacities of various factions and parties. The chief question on Election Day sometimes was: who could manufacture the requisite number of votes most easily and shrewdly, giving the other side insufficient time to make adjustments to its tallies and insufficient evidence to cry foul consistently.

They give quite a few examples of vote fraud in the U.S.:

In the 1844 election, New York City's 41,000 voters managed to cast 55,000 votes, a 135% turnout.

In 1876, Democratic Presidential candidate Samuel B. Tilden had 184 electoral votes (185 were needed then to win) with four states and 20 electoral votes still in question. Tilden had a substantial lead in Florida, but a Republican-controlled election board there began disualifying hundreds of Democratic votes for dubious reasons, giving the state instead to Rutherford B. Hayes, his Republican opponent. Congress then set up a Republican-led commission to decide the election, and they gave all the remaining electoral votes to Hayes, denying Tilden the one vote he needed to win.

Vote selling first became popular in the late 1800's. It became so prevalent in some places that in 1910 a judge in Adams County, Ohio convicted 1,679 people, more than 25% of the voters there, of selling their votes. Inquiries showed that 85% of the couny's voters had bought or sold votes at some time in their lives.

In 1941 a young Congressman named Lyndon Johnson was elected in a tight election that came down to the vote count forVoting Box 13 in Alice, Texas. A few days after the election the official in chage of Box 13 "found" 203 additional votes, 202 of them for Johnson. Stangely all 203 of these citizens voted in alphabetical order and used the same pen. Johnson won the election by 87 votes statewide.

My only problem with voting machines is that they should generate some sort of hard copy report for record keeping.

 

[Tgace]

If it's too bad to be true, it may not be voter fraud
Most statistical enigmas in recent election have logical explanations, despite Web rants

 

[Makalakumu]

If it's too bad to be true, it may not be voter fraud
Most statistical enigmas in recent election have logical explanations, despite Web rants

Voter fraud is a logical explanation. Attempting to explain away discrepincies with "shy republican" theories are unfounded. If the conservatives on MT are any measure, I would say they are anything but shy. The discrepincies go deep. How can every single voting machine error in one state add votes to Bush?

 

[Makalakumu]

Loosers always cry FOUL the loudest.

Someday, if nothing is done about this, you may be the one crying FOUL. Why couldn't the left take advantages of these very same loopholes in security?

There was no conspiracy.

I don't see how you can make that determination without some sort of investigation. Your belief that there was no conspiracy is just as valid as mine UNTIL there is an official investigation.

ANY election can be tampered with...and they probably all have been by ALL sides.

This is true, however you need read the GAO report and realize how easily and how secretly e-voting can be tampered with. This new technology has brought us new problems and from the sheer amount of allegations that have been verified independently, it certainly looks as if someone took advantage of the loopholes in security.

http://rantworld.blogs.com/rantworld/2004/11/a_brief_history.html

My only problem with voting machines is that they should generate some sort of hard copy report for record keeping.

I totally agree with this. I have a question for you though...why would voting machines resist measures to enact transparency on all levels? Nationwide, the two companies that build e-voting machines, Diebold and ES&E are doing everything they can to avoid ANY transparency at all.

 

[Tgace]

I did read the report..I believe that a similar report could be written about any ballot system. They all have their flaws. The manufacturers are probably more concerned with lawsuits and manufacturing expenses to redesign their products than any "master plan" conspiracy.

 

[Makalakumu]

I did read the report..I believe that a similar report could be written about any ballot system. They all have their flaws.

One person. One person with a computer. One person could easily hack into collection point and alter the records...and there would be very little to track. The type of voter fraud that these machines allow is unprecidented. All systems have their flaws, but NONE have EVER made it this easy to influence a national election with so few people.

The manufacturers are probably more concerned with lawsuits and manufacturing expenses to redesign their products than any "master plan" conspiracy.

Probably? You should take a look at what some of the people who run these companies have said and who they are connected to. The story behind this software is pretty amazing. Amazing in the sense that it looks like it was designed with these security holes in place.

 

[Ray]

Have you taken a look at some of the allegations made? Have you looked at the findings of the GAO report? Doesn't that shake your faith in ANY future election?...At the very least, I think that we, as Americans, need to be very cognizant of the limitations of this new voting technology. We need to investigate....We can do better.

You know, you're absolutely right! I do need to do something! I'm going to post something on a website--that'll have an impact! What are you going to do?

 

[Makalakumu]

You know, you're absolutely right! I do need to do something! I'm going to post something on a website--that'll have an impact! What are you going to do?

I've written letters to my representatives. I've given a few dollars to organizations that are investigating. I've read as much as time allows. However, I'm not posting here to advance any agenda, though. I'm getting a read on what other people think...to see if this is just a waste of time.