Power and Control

[CB Jones]

I question the value of telling people who can't yet hit to their full potential nor understand the pants soiling mind squellching effects of adrenalin in real combat that the first thing they need to learn is technical control.

And I question the value of telling someone to focus on power when they don't yet have the ability to generate power or apply the technique properly.

Chances are in the beginning they are just going to learn to improperly load up and/or overextend/rotate.

 

[marques]

Some karate schools/styles have a strong focus on control from the very start of the karate journey.

I think that this is putting the cart before the horse and that the first year or so of training should be geared towards maximising power. After power speed, after speed, control.

What do you think?

Power without control is dangerous. In many ways.
But other approaches are equally valid.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But that is de-emphasising control. Precisely what I've been talking about.

After all the advocacy for control in this discussion I note the overall quiet when asked about specifics of actually developing aggression.

I think though we fight in an optimised state when used together, control and aggression are, if not opposites, certainly opposing forces.

I reiterate, I've never dismissed the need for control, just it's place in early training.

I question the value of telling people who can't yet hit to their full potential nor understand the pants soiling mind squellching effects of adrenalin in real combat that the first thing they need to learn is technical control.

And while emotional control is an answer to the problem of combat stresses and adrenalin, I think learning to summon, temper and turn off aggression goes much further towards teaching emotional control than keeping good form.

Then you and I are defining "control" differently. I can be very aggressive and still exercise control.

Control is necessary for training, even if they can't exercise it properly under adrenal load. A student with poor control will hit partners when they don't mean to (I've seen it happen quite a bit), hit partners harder than they mean to (also something I've seen a lot), and do worse things with grappling and locks (I've had a shoulder partially dislocated by one).

 

[DaveB]

A lot of the responses seem only to consider half my position so I will re-clarify.

When I say control, I am talking about exercising conscious choice over levels of power and precision. When I saw power I am talking about the application of ballistic technique. Power flows from technique. So clearly i am not advocating poor technique.

As a brief aside, I have always considered technique and power to function as a feedback loop when trained practically.

Sloppy technique as comes from trying to make more power without concern for form gets you hit so you tighten up, you improve you go faster your form slips you get hit and so on...

And lastly this whole proposition relates only to early training.

Of course lack of control let's partner's get hurt, so limit partner work in early training. Instead focus on developing fitness, technique (ie power and balance) and aggression. Hit focus pads and heavy bags and when you do introduce partner work stick them in 24 ounce gloves armour and full face plates.

I see in my view a greater respect for the importance of control in that it is something to be attained through dedicated work, after first cultivating the weapon to be tempered by it.

 

[Buka]

A lot of the responses seem only to consider half my position so I will re-clarify.

When I say control, I am talking about exercising conscious choice over levels of power and precision. When I saw power I am talking about the application of ballistic technique. Power flows from technique. So clearly i am not advocating poor technique.

As a brief aside, I have always considered technique and power to function as a feedback loop when trained practically.

Sloppy technique as comes from trying to make more power without concern for form gets you hit so you tighten up, you improve you go faster your form slips you get hit and so on...

And lastly this whole proposition relates only to early training.

Of course lack of control let's partner's get hurt, so limit partner work in early training. Instead focus on developing fitness, technique (ie power and balance) and aggression. Hit focus pads and heavy bags and when you do introduce partner work stick them in 24 ounce gloves armour and full face plates.

I see in my view a greater respect for the importance of control in that it is something to be attained through dedicated work, after first cultivating the weapon to be tempered by it.

To me, control is a lot more than hitting with a technique that doesn't hurt the target. Control is putting as much power and depth as you want. When I say "depth" what I mean is - I can throw a straight right hand that lightly bounces off your cheek or I can throw it so it lands a little deeper into your face structure. Or a little deeper still. It's not really a "pulling" of the punch, it's a matter of mechanics. And, yes, if you happen to be moving in that might affect the overall depth of the strike, but hey, that happens. That's why it's called a fight.

And I do not think it is limited to "early training", just the opposite, it is in all training, especially long term training. I've been striking a long time. My ability to punch has increased in how hard, soft, short or long I want that punch to affect your face or body. It doesn't get there by magic, or by just doing it for a long time, it gets there by a constant study of yourself, your body, your mechanics, your timing and the ability to hit a moving target that is trying to hit you at the same time, or trying to kill you.

Then there's the choice of weapon. If I'm hitting you with a left hook, let's say a medium power one, and it gets in clean, it's going to hurt and probably interfere with whatever technique you were either throwing at the time or planning to throw. If I hit you with a maximum power dope slap, really lay one on you, it's going to sound like a gong going off inside your head. It won't do as much damage to the face structurally, but it will to the inside of your head, at the very least, temporarily. You would be better off taking the hook punch. To me, this falls under the heading of "control" as well.

I'll get to the aggression thing later. Such a fun thread.

 

[DaveB]

Buka I'm in total agreement. What you call depth is part of what I was referring to when i mentioned precision.

In referring to early training I was just talking about the idea of de-emphasising control as a means of developing power and aggression. That to me should be the first part of training so that the student develops something that needs controlling.

 

[JR 137]

Ive got a good example of controlled aggression from the other night at the dojo...

There's a 3rd dan who I love to spar with (I'm a 3rd kyu). We hit each other hard, and fast. But it's never blind rage hitting.

He literally had me cornered, and turned it up a notch. Having nowhere to go, being unable to block everything, and refusing to give up and go into the fetal position, I started swinging. Not blind rage swinging, but very aggressively and accurately punching. Punching hard enough to back him up. Once I got enough distance between us, I used a front push kick to back him up more and I continued punching.

The instructor kept a close eye on it and didn't say anything until after the exchange...

Instructor: why were you swinging like that?
Me: I was cornered with nowhere to go, so I had to punch my way out.
Instructor: in that situation, do that every time. But most importantly, don't get cornered.

Controlled aggression.

 

[DaveB]

Ive got a good example of controlled aggression from the other night at the dojo...

There's a 3rd dan who I love to spar with (I'm a 3rd kyu). We hit each other hard, and fast. But it's never blind rage hitting.

He literally had me cornered, and turned it up a notch. Having nowhere to go, being unable to block everything, and refusing to give up and go into the fetal position, I started swinging. Not blind rage swinging, but very aggressively and accurately punching. Punching hard enough to back him up. Once I got enough distance between us, I used a front push kick to back him up more and I continued punching.

The instructor kept a close eye on it and didn't say anything until after the exchange...

Instructor: why were you swinging like that?
Me: I was cornered with nowhere to go, so I had to punch my way out.
Instructor: in that situation, do that every time. But most importantly, don't get cornered.

Controlled aggression.

Well done.

What I would ask though is was it controlled aggression or was it play acted aggression?
The difference being that (sorry to disagree Jowga) real aggression is emotionally driven.

We're you consciously swinging with limited power or were you consciously controlling the urge to swing?

While both are valuable skills, it's the real aggression that will serve you when your in the corner due to a broken nose and your head is swimming and your afraid for your life. In that situation ones mind and emotions are too damaged to construct something artificial.

Emotions are a driving force in the human mind. If we let them take over our conscious mind we are in trouble but we can harness their pushing power to get is through difficult situations.

It's not for everyone. Mushin (no mind - the classic serene emotionless engine of death in samurai movies) is a valid way to go on the other end of the spectrum, but I think it's an unrealistic ideal for some, at least without very specific training.

 

[JR 137]

Well done.

What I would ask though is was it controlled aggression or was it play acted aggression?
The difference being that (sorry to disagree Jowga) real aggression is emotionally driven.

We're you consciously swinging with limited power or were you consciously controlling the urge to swing?

While both are valuable skills, it's the real aggression that will serve you when your in the corner due to a broken nose and your head is swimming and your afraid for your life. In that situation ones mind and emotions are too damaged to construct something artificial.

Emotions are a driving force in the human mind. If we let them take over our conscious mind we are in trouble but we can harness their pushing power to get is through difficult situations.

It's not for everyone. Mushin (no mind - the classic serene emotionless engine of death in samurai movies) is a valid way to go on the other end of the spectrum, but I think it's an unrealistic ideal for some, at least without very specific training.

I was consciously controlling the urge to hit as hard as I could. And the urge to not break our rules of sparring.

I think aggression is something people are born with. Some can get it through life experiences or learn it, but learning to actually turn it on and use it takes a very long time. I think a few people won't ever truly learn it, but those would have to be very rare; fight or flight is ingrained in our DNA after all.

Very, very few people make it through 10 years of wrestling without aggression. Of the rare exceptions that do, I can't see any of those people having any success. I wasn't the greatest wrestler back in my day, but I was definitely effective. More that anything, wrestling taught me to keep going, no matter how tough it gets. The only successful "passive" wrestlers I've ever seen were so skilled that they easily countered just about anything and always seemed like they were at least 2 moves ahead of their opponent. But that's probably more of a passive aggression - making their opponents feel like they were in control when they really weren't.

I don't view mu shin as some sort of fairytale calm and serene/peaceful state of mind. I view it as "being in the zone." Everything else is blocked out, and you're not consciously "trying" to do anything; you're just doing what comes naturally. You're letting instincts and muscle memory to take over rather than forcing anything. Maybe I'm off or have an inaccurate understanding of it.

Our organization has some prearranged sparring and "self defenses" that we drill quite often. They're not taught as anything that would definitely happen in a real confrontation; they're taught as principals of movement, possible target and corresponding weapon selection, etc. My view of mu shin makes these work for me - when I consciously think about what I'm doing, I mess them up; I get ahead of myself and/or my partner or flat out freeze from overthinking. When I don't think about it, it easily flows the way it should. There's certainly intent and aggression (so long as my partner can handle it) when I'm practicing them. But not thinking about what I'm supposed to do is only possible after I've practiced them to the point where that's possible.

Mu shin to be doesn't mean be nice. It simply means don't consciously think "block now" "hit here" etc.; it means trusting your instincts/muscle memory and letting it take over without thinking about exactly what you should do. Easier said than done Its hardest for me to do when my partner can't or isn't willing to go at a serious pace/intensity.

Maybe some Asian culture guru will claim I'm totally off with my view of mu shin and say I'm doing some other principle. Makes no difference to me.

 

[jobo]

A lot of the responses seem only to consider half my position so I will re-clarify.

When I say control, I am talking about exercising conscious choice over levels of power and precision. When I saw power I am talking about the application of ballistic technique. Power flows from technique. So clearly i am not advocating poor technique.

As a brief aside, I have always considered technique and power to function as a feedback loop when trained practically.

Sloppy technique as comes from trying to make more power without concern for form gets you hit so you tighten up, you improve you go faster your form slips you get hit and so on...

And lastly this whole proposition relates only to early training.

Of course lack of control let's partner's get hurt, so limit partner work in early training. Instead focus on developing fitness, technique (ie power and balance) and aggression. Hit focus pads and heavy bags and when you do introduce partner work stick them in 24 ounce gloves armour and full face plates.

I see in my view a greater respect for the importance of control in that it is something to be attained through dedicated work, after first cultivating the weapon to be tempered by it.

your points are interesting and a few months ago I would have agreed with out reservation, but I'm slowly coming round to a different view as it applies to my self.

I have power, bundles of it, the correct techneque only has a modest effect on how hard I punch or kick, some times giving a bit more some times messing up my natural flow.

some of my class mates have much better techneque than me, but they have very little power, the applied techneque doesn't make enough of a difference to over come the fact they aren't very strong, most would benefit greatly from strength building programme to give their techneque a good boost. But if they wanted that sort of thing they would be down at the gym pumping iron.

instead they are here doing kata with great precision , short of making them do six months hard training I don't see how just punching a few focus mits is going to make any difference.

 

[DaveB]

your points are interesting and a few months ago I would have agreed with out reservation, but I'm slowly coming round to a different view as it applies to my self.

I have power, bundles of it, the correct techneque only has a modest effect on how hard I punch or kick, some times giving a bit more some times messing up my natural flow.

some of my class mates have much better techneque than me, but they have very little power, the applied techneque doesn't make enough of a difference to over come the fact they aren't very strong, most would benefit greatly from strength building programme to give their techneque a good boost. But if they wanted that sort of thing they would be down at the gym pumping iron.

instead they are here doing kata with great precision , short of making them do six months hard training I don't see how just punching a few focus mits is going to make any difference.

Basically practice should make more efficient use of what they have. Also most martial art classes include a degree of fitness and strength training. I advocate their being a lot of that in early training.

I used to have the same issue in that I could hit way harder without the rigid technique of my karate school. That changed when karate stopped being something I had to consciously try to do.

 

[Buka]

On the aggression thing -

In self defense, there's going to be aggression. At the very least on one side. In competitive fighting there's going to be aggression, as fighting itself is aggressive by nature. Some display it outwardly more than others. Some focus it, unleash it, use it for all it's worth.

Sometimes, having too much aggression can tire a fighter.

In dojo sparring, there's some fighters who are more aggressive than other fighters. This is a good thing, it teaches students to deal with aggression.

 

[JP3]

Then you and I are defining "control" differently. I can be very aggressive and still exercise control.

Control is necessary for training, even if they can't exercise it properly under adrenal load. A student with poor control will hit partners when they don't mean to (I've seen it happen quite a bit), hit partners harder than they mean to (also something I've seen a lot), and do worse things with grappling and locks (I've had a shoulder partially dislocated by one).

I'll second that. I tore a Rhomboid muscle, the one that's under the shoulder-blade, one time rolling in what was "supposed" to be a gentle, slow warm-up roll... and the kid got overexcited when I was just rolling along to see what he wanted to do, what he would do,a nd he ended up behind me and as I started to work through the problem so he could learn what the guy was going to do to attempt escape, he just hit his nitro/turbo button and hauled my arm up and out. While it was behind me. That both stung, and left a mark, both int he bruising from the torn muscle and on my psyche. It took a bit to trust young beginners again and allow them to get me into compromising positions.

Still hurts, thinking about that one.

 

[DaveB]

I'll second that. I tore a Rhomboid muscle, the one that's under the shoulder-blade, one time rolling in what was "supposed" to be a gentle, slow warm-up roll... and the kid got overexcited when I was just rolling along to see what he wanted to do, what he would do,a nd he ended up behind me and as I started to work through the problem so he could learn what the guy was going to do to attempt escape, he just hit his nitro/turbo button and hauled my arm up and out. While it was behind me. That both stung, and left a mark, both int he bruising from the torn muscle and on my psyche. It took a bit to trust young beginners again and allow them to get me into compromising positions.

Still hurts, thinking about that one.

Good point, I have to admit I was only really considering my method from a percussive karate perspective.

Probably no use in grappling, but then grappling folk always argue that their stuff is proven because they can train it safely at max intensity so they don't have the same concerns.

Again though, for strikers, just don't let them hit anybody without lots of padding until this stage has passed.

 

[jobo]

Basically practice should make more efficient use of what they have. Also most martial art classes include a degree of fitness and strength training. I advocate their being a lot of that in early training.

I used to have the same issue in that I could hit way harder without the rigid technique of my karate school. That changed when karate stopped being something I had to consciously try to do.

im not disagreeing, I've been banging the same drum, but its more if its commercial viable.

MAseems to attract a lot of not very fit people who because they aren't very fit want to learn an art to defend them selves.
if they wanted to get fit they would do something better like weight training or or,cycling, but as they don't, it seems that putting the effort in to getting a good standard of fitness is to much effort.

how are these people going to react if you tell them that instead of teaching the unfit to fight, you are going to make them sweat and ache for 6months u till they are fit.
go to the school down the road who promises to. Teach them to defend themselves with non of this strengh training nonsense , that's what.

 

[drop bear]

A lot of the responses seem only to consider half my position so I will re-clarify.

When I say control, I am talking about exercising conscious choice over levels of power and precision. When I saw power I am talking about the application of ballistic technique. Power flows from technique. So clearly i am not advocating poor technique.

As a brief aside, I have always considered technique and power to function as a feedback loop when trained practically.

Sloppy technique as comes from trying to make more power without concern for form gets you hit so you tighten up, you improve you go faster your form slips you get hit and so on...

And lastly this whole proposition relates only to early training.

Of course lack of control let's partner's get hurt, so limit partner work in early training. Instead focus on developing fitness, technique (ie power and balance) and aggression. Hit focus pads and heavy bags and when you do introduce partner work stick them in 24 ounce gloves armour and full face plates.

I see in my view a greater respect for the importance of control in that it is something to be attained through dedicated work, after first cultivating the weapon to be tempered by it.

Who do these untempered weapons spar with?

If they get me with their uncontrolled power I will beat the crap out of them.

 

[DaveB]

Who do these untempered weapons spar with?

If they get me with their uncontrolled power I will beat the crap out of them.

Sigh

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well done.

What I would ask though is was it controlled aggression or was it play acted aggression?
The difference being that (sorry to disagree Jowga) real aggression is emotionally driven.

We're you consciously swinging with limited power or were you consciously controlling the urge to swing?

While both are valuable skills, it's the real aggression that will serve you when your in the corner due to a broken nose and your head is swimming and your afraid for your life. In that situation ones mind and emotions are too damaged to construct something artificial.

Emotions are a driving force in the human mind. If we let them take over our conscious mind we are in trouble but we can harness their pushing power to get is through difficult situations.

It's not for everyone. Mushin (no mind - the classic serene emotionless engine of death in samurai movies) is a valid way to go on the other end of the spectrum, but I think it's an unrealistic ideal for some, at least without very specific training.

Aggression need not be driven by emotion, though it can be. Anger and fear often foster aggression, but aggression can simply be turned on. Being able to turn it on is part of the control.

 

[DaveB]

Aggression need not be driven by emotion, though it can be. Anger and fear often foster aggression, but aggression can simply be turned on. Being able to turn it on is part of the control.

I agree, but if not turned on with an emotional core it could lack the foundation to weather injury or shock.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree, but if not turned on with an emotional core it could lack the foundation to weather injury or shock.

I don't know about that. I've often continued momentarily through injuries in sports (until there was a good point to stop and get someone else on), without anger or fear being necessary. The emotion may be necessary for dealing with larger injuries, but we don't really want people continuing past those during training. I don't want most people breaking out significant amounts of anger or fear during training (or competition) - that's how people get hurt. There are some people - few, by proportion - whose anger is a useful and manageable component, even in relatively friendly competition.