possible lineage/ qualifications lies

[lonecoyote]

Martial arts forums are a very educational resource, and I wonder if you also know they can be disillusioning. One goes to a school, their first martial arts experience, and its great. They like their art, their instructor, and the history behind what they do. They then go online, to talk to other martial artists and pretty soon they realize that what they are learning, not just about their art, but its origins and history doesn't match up with what some very respectable, learned people are saying. A little research, a few books, some private messages and soon one realizes that their instructor has either had the wool pulled over his eyes or is full of it, because while there is lots of disagreement on origins and history, nobody has this guys point of view and he's considered kind of a wacko. So what do you do then? Confront your instructor? What if you get the runaround? Does it depend on how much time/ money you have invested? Does any of it matter as long as you're enjoying yourself? or is it very important, because it speaks to character, if you lie, you are a liar?

 

[Kenpo Mama]

Martial arts forums are a very educational resource, and I wonder if you also know they can be disillusioning. One goes to a school, their first martial arts experience, and its great. They like their art, their instructor, and the history behind what they do. They then go online, to talk to other martial artists and pretty soon they realize that what they are learning, not just about their art, but its origins and history doesn't match up with what some very respectable, learned people are saying. A little research, a few books, some private messages and soon one realizes that their instructor has either had the wool pulled over his eyes or is full of it, because while there is lots of disagreement on origins and history, nobody has this guys point of view and he's considered kind of a wacko. So what do you do then? Confront your instructor? What if you get the runaround? Does it depend on how much time/ money you have invested? Does any of it matter as long as you're enjoying yourself? or is it very important, because it speaks to character, if you lie, you are a liar?

Yuck, a real toughie. I guess it all depends upon how it affects you and your training. If you confront the instructor and he/she continues to give you the run-around, then you have to make a decision for yourself. If you choose to meet it head-on by presenting the information that you have uncovered - then you are in essence calling the instructor - a liar. (one i would be hard pressed to choose). This would most definitely be a sign that you should find a new school. So you may choose to keep what you find out close to the cuff, being aware and trying to distinguish where the truth ends and the lies begin. Also bearing in mind that as you advance through the ranks you become a testament to this individual's history. By accepting rank and knowing that there is questionable lineage, are you in fact contributing to the lie? In essence a real challenge and maybe one that should have no place in martial arts training.

If you are enjoying the direction of your training, and the fellowship of your training partners, maybe you can overlook some of the lack of integrity. If as you have stated it is too important to overlook because it truly speaks to the individual's character, then maybe it is time to leave your training with the person.

Also remember people on the forums say many things, some third and fourth hand (i heard about so and so from so and so) check out any and all accusations yourself - at the source- before confronting any instructor. And then i feel ultimately the decision needs to come from your own heart.

Peace,

Kenpo Mama :asian:

 

[Han-Mi]

Don't confront your instructor in an accusing manner. Tell your instructor what you have learned and how you learned it. Allow him to explain. Then decide for youself what to do. I don't think that you have to take on your instructor's beliefs to get a good experience. If you ever explain the lineage to someone else, tell them what you know, not what your instructor said. You are a representation of yourself more than anyone or anything else.

This is all of course, IF you decide to confront him.

 

[bignick]

that's a tough one...if the instructor otherwise seems to be a good person and seems honorable...and you like what and where you're learning...i think thats the most important thing...

if the question of lineage/qualifications pops up...and he abuses students...is a bad teacher....etc...then i'd leave in a heartbeat

 

[OC Kid]

Its funny ya know, I have the same problem. I quit one association and joined another. Now the folks from the first one bad mouth the 2nd one and say its a bootleg system. Even though my students can kick their students butts, I mean out class them (seriously) and they ask me for advice and one instructor comes over just to work out with me to take the stuff I taught that night tell me or my bud not to tell anyone he was there and go back and teach what he learned from my pal and me.

Another student of my pal IKKYU decided to up and quit Jeff and go back to the old system because he didnt feel Jeff could take him all the way to B/B even though Jeff has taught him for about 4 years and the guy goes to tournaments and kicks butt trophies ect in both kumite and kata under Jeffs training. But this guy wants a larger more "reconized" system.
Boy those guys in that larger more "reconized" system are really going to be peeved when they find I am not coming back. I went to visit my old school on vacation and they spent a couple of hours trying to talk me into coming back to them. They did the same thing to Jeff while they were trying to steal his students... Yea well Jeff and I are nuts but much like the great musashi I call us Ronin....

 

[Gary Crawford]

That's quite an interesting question.If I had the reasorces that I do now back when I was a beginner,I might have come to the same conclusions about my instructors after coresponding with some other experienced kenponists.Good thing I didn't.I wasn't qualified to judge my instructors until much later.Does that Help?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I've trained with some the most heinous confabulators, as well as some of the most undeniably legit. Sadder for me than training with a skilled, honorable bootlegger is hearing of the unconscionable actions and attitudes of the properly pedigreed, arrogant practitioners with all their ducks in a row, "legally", but who remain sub-human as people.

 

[SMP]

I would suggest talking to your instructor in a very respectful way. I am sure he/she would understand any concerns you have. If they dont think you deserve any answers then you probably have basis for concern. - good luck

 

[Jim Perkins]

Something to think about it was not untill after World War II that martial arts was taught in public school format. Up until that time it was temple, military or Family oriented mostly family. It is difficult to legitimate any style and everyone will have their interpretation, or legitimating interpretations. Most arts can be linked in one way to one another if there was one ultimate art then there would'nt be so many it all comes down to your instructor do like what they teach? Is he or she good at teaching? Do you respect them? Lineages are up to to much interpretation forget about that part study the art and yourself don't worry about what others say.
:asian:

 

[MisterMike]

Tru Dat homey

If I were so bold, I could start teaching a system and call it Karate, Aikido, Ninjutsu just based of the definitions of those words. I teach "empty hand", "the way of harmony" or the "art of perseverence".

Who is anyone to say otherwise? It's MY style. Just as there are many styles back East.

If what they are teaching doesn't work or is just plain bunk, I'd advise going somewhere else. Or if they claim lineage to someone they never met, maybe you could call them on it.

A lot of people use Japanese/Chinese/whatever words to name their style and that's probably OK depending on their background but I'd say lying about lineage wouldn't be cool.

 

[Matt Stone]

Martial arts forums are a very educational resource, and I wonder if you also know they can be disillusioning.

They are likely the greatest boon and largest hindrance to the proliferation of quality martial arts to date.

One goes to a school, their first martial arts experience, and its great. They like their art, their instructor, and the history behind what they do.

Nothing wrong with liking what you are doing...

They then go online, to talk to other martial artists and pretty soon they realize that what they are learning, not just about their art, but its origins and history doesn't match up with what some very respectable, learned people are saying.

Then what is it that makes these people "respectable" and "learned?" If what they teach, what they've learned, is incorrect, then I suppose they aren't quite as "learned" as was previously assumed...

There is a guy here locally that allegedly teaches some Shaolin style, but was completely stumped when the term "chuan fa" was brought up... I guess he isn't as educated as he makes himself out to be, no matter what others may think.

A little research, a few books, some private messages and soon one realizes that their instructor has either had the wool pulled over his eyes or is full of it, because while there is lots of disagreement on origins and history, nobody has this guys point of view and he's considered kind of a wacko.

Happens all the time.

So what do you do then? Confront your instructor?

Certainly. Perhaps "confront" is too harsh a word, but making it known in some fashion that you have found contradictory information may be a good thing. Maybe your teacher told you XYZ, and you didn't really catch Y all that well, so you go around thinking that he told you XZ. Maybe your info is just insufficient. Maybe your teacher was told XYZ and you find out subsequent to your internet searches that in fact the information should be WXY. Telling your teacher this might actually help HIM to grow (maybe he didn't know). Maybe your teacher is just making things up and you finally found him out by doing a little research. People often don't research MA at all until they are hip deep in it, and by then it is too late to a greater or lesser degree... I mean, you research buying a dog, buying a car, buying a house, but not in "buying" self-defense training? It just fails the common sense test. Trusting your physical safety to any old schmuck just isn't sound advice, is it?

What if you get the runaround?

What runaround? That the teacher continues to blur the definitions between reality and fantasy, or that the teacher has an answer for every question? Are your questions being answered truthfully with logical, reasonable answers, or do you feel like Rod Serling should pop out at any moment?

Does it depend on how much time/ money you have invested?

Does WHAT depend on how much time/money you have invested? Whether you depart in a rapid fashion or whether you remain? What a sorry reason to stick with a MA you know to be garbage... Just because you have spent $X and have X belt you remain rather than go elsewhere to start over again... Sad, really.

Does any of it matter as long as you're enjoying yourself?

Only if you are trusting what you know and what you have learned to keep you alive. Then it matters quite a bit, I'd think. If you are in MA just to have fun, jump about and socialize, then I suppose it matters little unless you are concerned with the people you keep company with.

or is it very important, because it speaks to character, if you lie, you are a liar?

What else will that person lie about, and persist in lying to you about?

Lots of questions, only one answer - Lineage means crap, skill is far more important, though a skilled practitioner can still be a complete fraud no matter how well they fight.

 

[RRouuselot]

lonecoyote,

Mr. Stone is correct in what he is writting. He and I have busted several frauds of this type on this and other BBS.

I too was duped when I was a kid by a guy that told me he was teaching Pai Te Lum Kung Fu and when we got to black we had to be adopted by the headmaster in Canton China.....I was a kid and tohught this was BS but some of the adults in the class got galssy eyed just thinking that they could be part of such a great "culture" and "become" Chinese. LMAO!
He shoveled a lot of other BS too.....and I got curious as to what was real and what wasn't as far as history and techniques. By good fortune I happen to visit a MA Shop and met my current teacher of over 2 decades and he literally showed me he wasn't any BS by knocking the snot out of me (in a nice way) for a couple of hours in his dojo. I never went back to the Pai Te Lum Kung Fu dojo.
Come to find out years later from my good friend Patrick McCarthy (Bubishi) that my Pai Te Lum Kung Fu teacher was full of it since McCarthy had studied from Daniel K. Pai the head of the Pai Te Lum Kung Fu system and he lived in Canada not Canton China!!!

My advice:

Open your eyes and ears, think with a clear mind and don't swallow any BS.