Portland cafe shows officer the door

[Bob Hubbard]

I'll applaud the good ones, and I'll rotten tomatoe the bad ones. I've long considered a "walk of shame" here to link to the convicted bad cops. I read a dozen 'bad cop' blogs weekly. Hell, I get stories right from the source. I don't have a problem with cops, at least not so far in 40 years. Ok, there was "Officer Luigi" (named due to his unbuttoned 4 down uniform shirt with shrubbery and gold chain) who back in the mid 90's pulled me over and lied in traffic court about my speed and his daily calibration of his gear. But other than that, I've been fine. 100k miles and minimal problems.

So here we have a cafe full of "anarchists" (who I'm sure would crap themselves if a true anarchy situation occurred), who have a history of problems with the police, who sit around and complain about the police, and who tell each other tales of their run ins with the police, tales which I am sure are 100% accurate, factual and not the least bit embellished btw.

Why do all these people have problems with the cops? What's the background? A friend of their cousins brothers roommate got hassled for having an illegal narcotic? Someone was pulled over at a traffic stop driving with an expired license, no insurance and past due plates? They tried pumping their own gas with out the proper training and certification? Curious minds would like to know.

You run from the cops, the cops get suspicious. You make a sudden move, the cop has to make a split decision. You draw a weapon, you deserve the bullet you take.

Read that last line one more time.

You draw a weapon, you deserve the bullet you take.

Remember that rant of mine about you make your own choices?

Someone who -chooses- to run, -chooses- to act in a suspicious and/or threatening manner, someone who -chooses- to go for a potential weapon....you just chose to die. Only a complete moron, no, absolute moron, would think "No, he was just scared, he was reaching for his ID, and the cop should have know this.".

And anyone who says "they should have shot to wound" is probably someone who has no idea what it's like, and has no experience handling a gun other than their PS3 toy, and deserves a size 11 steel toe in their ***.

 

[Archangel M]

So here we have a cafe full of "anarchists" (who I'm sure would crap themselves if a true anarchy situation occurred), who have a history of problems with the police, who sit around and complain about the police, and who tell each other tales of their run ins with the police, tales which I am sure are 100% accurate, factual and not the least bit embellished btw.

Thats a very interesting point Bob. It is sort of Ironic that these kids have the freedom to able to sit around a coffee shop and spout their Anarchist rants due to the fact that this country has laws protecting that freedom and police to enforce them.

 

[Carol]

Lets say, I have to pick up someone....say my sister, at the airport next Saturday. She has never been to NH before.

Her plane lands at 8am. But...oh crap...the boss just called me and I have an urgent meeting...if I miss this meeting, I could lose my job. I can't be there until 9:15.

So my sister lands, and she's waiting, and she's worried, and she's wondering where I am, or if I'm in the right place. She has me paged. She calls my cell, but gets voice mail. She finally sits down, depressed, worried, and lost, and doesn't know what she can do, in this strange city by herself. Then I finally come in to greet her. "Sis, I'm so sorry" She give me a hug, but she's upset. So good to see you! What happened? she asked. I've been waiting, are you OK?

*rewind*

Lets say, I have to pick up someone....say my sister, at the airport next Saturday. She has never been to NH before.

Her plane lands at 8am. But...oh crap...the boss just called me and I have an urgent meeting...if I miss this meeting, I could lose my job. I can't be there until 9:15.


*dials phone* "Hey sis, you there? Oh yeah, I'm fine...but I can't be there until 10:15, urgent meeting. Hey, you know what you can do, after you get your bags, go right back upstairs. You'll see a Dunkin Donuts. What? Oh its big, you can't miss it. There's a newstand there too with the local paper and a few paperbacks. I promise you I will be there as early as I can."

My sister lands. She gets some breakfast, and sits down to read a paperback she brought with her, and scanning through the newspaper and gets her favorite coffee, half-decaf.

I go to greet her "Sis, I'm so sorry". She shakes her head, oh no its fine and great to see you! How was that meeting? Hey I was reading through the paper and this ad mentions a big flea market tomorrow! Do you know where that is? Is it far? And how far up are those mountains out the windows there. Is that something we can do in a day?

First Scenario. I was 1:15 late.

Second Scenario. I was 1:15 late.

Identical actions.

The difference in the second scenario is that I had set reasonable expectations, and I had managed those expectations.

When a relationship between things is tense, it is usually not from actions, it is from mismanaged and unrealistic expectations.

 

[David43515]

Someone asked for a link. I found one quickly. I did no research. I'm sure google won't provide accurate results for "Portland police officer takes food from hippie" or "Portland police officer rips up box - 'home' to "T-bone", a gulf war vet" and etcetera.

Is it wrong to hate a cop just cuz he's a cop? Sure.

I guess I'm seeing this incident as another marker of the divide between police and citizens who need their protection ... a decay of trust. Some people want that mended, others don't give a ****.

I'd like to see it mended, hence I try to communicate and hopefully facilitate understanding ... but that takes willingness of people on both sides of that fence.

I really have no dog in this hunt, but I find it sadly typical that those sensitive to any kind of anti-cop sentiment over-react. Go ahead, pound that square peg some more. It's bound to cave one day, one way or the other.

Shesula, I hope that you don`t think I`m trying to pound that square peg in. I`m not trying to jump on you. I really respect you for being able to see both sides of the story and for trying to bridge the gap. That takes so much patience and alot of understanding.

I can`t stand a cop or any other authority figure who abuses thier position for thier own little power trips. And believe me I know that it happens far far too often. I just like to think (however nievely) that those cases are the exception to the rule. When I posted about the deaths of those people I wasn`t trying to be confrontational. I guess I was just trying to say that the examples those folks sited weren`t very good examples of the point they were trying to make.

You`re right on the money when you said that this story really marks just how much of a divide exists between the police and the people they`re tasked with protecting. I think that the biggest problem here is one of perception. How to change that perception is the real question. It sounds like the cop in this story is doing a good job at not making things worse. How do we make them better?

Hmmm. I get the feeling I talk too much.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Thats a very interesting point Bob. It is sort of Ironic that these kids have the freedom to able to sit around a coffee shop and spout their Anarchist rants due to the fact that this country has laws protecting that freedom and police to enforce them.

If anarchy ruled, I could walk into their little cafe, smack em around, take what I wanted from the til, not worry about paying for my coffee, and take a crap on the counter, and all they could do is go "Anarchy rulze!". Or grab a chair and defend. In the end, it'd be last man standing left to light the fire and burn the place to the ground, and they'd have no recourse. But, we live in a society that has laws, that limit such actions, that have law enforcement officials who will respond to such and take action, and jails to hold such individuals, and courts to try them and force restitution for damages, and a military that allows them to be different and not have to confirm. Such truths are lost on them. It's easier to "hate the man" than to acknowledge that the hated "man" is who makes it possible for them to express their hate at all.

Try doing that in Iran, Mexico, Saudi Arabia or 20 other nations. Hell, try doing it in Somalia where Anarchy does rule. I bet they don't even have a vegan anarchist coffeeshop there.

I wonder why.

 

[Carol]

Wait....

Georgia is saying "he was mentally ill, and so were others."
Arch is saying "He was frigging shooting at me (or my brothers/sisters)"

Quick reaction, yes. I bet those reflexes have saved Arch's life more times than one, and that's a good thing. And I also know Georgia would be the last person to say that one person's life is more valuable than another's. She'd be the last person to think "Tough Arch, he's ill. Bleed out!"

What she is trying to say is that this is the wrong demographic of people to be attacking cops. Isn't it the drunks? Or the junkies? Or the gangbangers? Or the guys that have their girl double as an everlast bag? Or the jerk who has eleventy-seven bench warrants and is about to have a very bad tomorrow trying to explain it all to the arraignment judge?

Why are these young people, these high or potentially high functioning young people who are having trouble keeping their disorder contained because none of the keys seem to fit their lock....why are they dying?

Why is it that the are attacking cops? Why are they attacking cops in a town like PDX which, as Bob pointed out, has a lower than average misconduct rate?

The guy at Red and Black did not say "I do this because I hate cops", he said he does this because of the broken mental health system. Police offers end up being the one who killed the trigger, so they bear the brunt of the blame.

So the concern is that there are more of these men out there, like the ones who have perished....so there will be more who attack cops. Keeping them away from cops, perhaps that prevents encounters will cause the guy to go ballistic, and get shot down. Remember, bipolar people may have a distorted sense of reality. If they feel safe in the shop, then maybe they will feel safe enough to live their entire day peacefully.

The solution is.....there isn't one. Even if the city fathers announce tomorrow and "We're going to build more community mental health clinics," they will take time to build. And of course, the reality is, short of a miracle, the city fathers are not going to announce that they are going to build clinics, or do anything at all about the problem. As a country we try to take care of our severely disabled, but PDX has lost quite literally 3 to mental illness. They don't want to lose any more of their citizenry. And...with no other place to go, the tension against the police is rising.


That...is a problem with no easy answers, and one that may get worse instaad of better. I....have no idea what to do.

 

[Archangel M]

Good post Carol.

The only thing I would add is that while the VAST majority of the clinically Mental Ill are not violent, that does not mean that the mentally ill cannot be:

drunks? Or the junkies? Or the gangbangers? Or the guys that have their girl double as an everlast bag? Or the jerk who has eleventy-seven bench warrants and is about to have a very bad tomorrow trying to explain it all to the arraignment judge?

All of those guys/gals could easily be mentally ill too.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/294626-overview

Nearly any psychiatric symptom can be associated with criminality, because symptoms can impair judgment and violate societal norms. For example, an individual with insomnia due to major depression may fall asleep while driving and kill a pedestrian, resulting in a manslaughter conviction. Frequent psychiatric conditions associated with criminality are listed below.
However, most individuals with mental illness are not violent.[URL="http://javascript<b></b>:showcontent('active','references');"]1 [/URL]A study of individuals with psychotic disorders found that those with a mental illness were responsible for only 5% of all violent crimes.[URL="http://javascript<b></b>:showcontent('active','references');"]2 [/URL]An exception to this rule involves sexual offenders, who had high rates of substance use disorders, paraphilias, mood disorders, impulse control disorders, anxiety disorders, eating disorders, and antisocial personality disorders.[URL="http://javascript<b></b>:showcontent('active','references');"]3 [/URL]Other exceptions include antisocial personality disorder and substance abuse.<A href="javascript:showcontent('active','references');">4

So while it IS possible that a persons mental illness could exempt them from culpability for their criminal act, their act still is criminal and we will respond accordingly. If some guy kills someone in a psychotic episode out of his control, I will arrest him. The legal prfessionals can decide if he goes to prison or a hospital.

Like I said. Most of the mentally ill don't run into these problems. but like much of police work, we tend to deal with the 5% that do have problems.

 

[Carol]

I fully agree! The vast majority are not violent. And a strong majority can be treated successfully and go back to living normal lives. But 3 in one towkn...one is a flue, two a trend, three a pattern....that is something that is a problem that is more specific to that locale. Just like wannabe gang bangers are more specific to my locale (everyone else seems to have the real deal, unfortunately).

What has me concerned is the concept of a safe haven. No one needs a safe haven for "doing much better now but the meds make me a bit more thirsty". There's a concern about more of the folks in the city that aren't stabilized. Maybe none of them have any hurtful tendencies at all. But they could also end up like Eric, who never harmed a soul, had a loving family, a brother (with normal cognition) that adored him, and access to great doctors....and still nothing could be due to stabilize him before Poseidon snatched his life away.

 

[knuckleheader]

Anarchist don't enjoy anarchy when it visits their domain?

friggin sily people I tell ya

 

[jks9199]

Who attacks cops? People. Some are drugged, some are drunk, some are just plain crazy, some are malicious, a very few are downright evil... but they come from all walks of life.

I've got a study on my desk at work of law enforcement officers killed or assaulted; I'm going off my recollection. They did find common factors -- but very few if any of them had to do with the offender. Most had to do with the officer and the circumstances.

The cop in Portland handled the situation well. The coffee shop worker? He's coming off looking like an over-reacting jerk who probably got a kick out of (finally) being able to tell a cop what to do.

Regarding anarchy in general, Larry Niven wrote a very interesting story about "free parks" where just about anything went -- and what happened when REAL anarchy hit. It's called "Cloak of Anarchy" and it used to be available on line, but I'm having trouble finding a good link.

 

[CoryKS]

Regarding anarchy in general, Larry Niven wrote a very interesting story about "free parks" where just about anything went -- and what happened when REAL anarchy hit. It's called "Cloak of Anarchy" and it used to be available on line, but I'm having trouble finding a good link.

Had a friend in high school who was an "anarchist", used to describe all these scenarios about how great things would be. I told him that if we were in a state of anarchy I would stab him in the throat and take his wallet. The look on his face was priceless; he seriously hadn't considered that possibility.

 

[shesulsa]

My point, actually, is the continuing divide. I *support* police. Anyone who's been here long enough to read both sides of my writing on police and their actions ... KNOWS ... that I support police.

But I think it's incredibly hypocritical to consistently argue that cops are always in the right, because they're just not. Sometimes they create their own problems or make problems like community relations worse.

Like I said ... ya gotta care about the problem to do anything about it. When police are willing to reach out and educate/relate to the community as best they can rather than lording authority over them, things will get better. And when citizens are willing to step up and recognize the incredibly difficult job police do and how their actions become justified in the eyes of the law, things will get better.

Nothing can be accomplished to improve the job nor morale of police nor compliance in the private sector without both sides taking a step.

The young anarchists at the black and red cafe have a good spirit, really - they just don't know how to aim it and I think while their safer space policy is an attempt at completely avoiding potential problems at the cafe, it does bring about a bigger one. But then again, so does ripping up T-Bone's cardboard home or stealing his meal.

And not all who dine at the Red and Black are mentally ill - I didn't say that. I pointed out that there have been a number of shootings in Portland (and nearby cities in the Metro area) of mentally ill persons. It is one example that tugs on the heartstrings of the general public and provides a huge target for anarchists.

 

[MJS]

Wait....

Georgia is saying "he was mentally ill, and so were others."
Arch is saying "He was frigging shooting at me (or my brothers/sisters)"

Quick reaction, yes. I bet those reflexes have saved Arch's life more times than one, and that's a good thing. And I also know Georgia would be the last person to say that one person's life is more valuable than another's. She'd be the last person to think "Tough Arch, he's ill. Bleed out!"

What she is trying to say is that this is the wrong demographic of people to be attacking cops. Isn't it the drunks? Or the junkies? Or the gangbangers? Or the guys that have their girl double as an everlast bag? Or the jerk who has eleventy-seven bench warrants and is about to have a very bad tomorrow trying to explain it all to the arraignment judge?

Why are these young people, these high or potentially high functioning young people who are having trouble keeping their disorder contained because none of the keys seem to fit their lock....why are they dying?

Why is it that the are attacking cops? Why are they attacking cops in a town like PDX which, as Bob pointed out, has a lower than average misconduct rate?

The guy at Red and Black did not say "I do this because I hate cops", he said he does this because of the broken mental health system. Police offers end up being the one who killed the trigger, so they bear the brunt of the blame.

So the concern is that there are more of these men out there, like the ones who have perished....so there will be more who attack cops. Keeping them away from cops, perhaps that prevents encounters will cause the guy to go ballistic, and get shot down. Remember, bipolar people may have a distorted sense of reality. If they feel safe in the shop, then maybe they will feel safe enough to live their entire day peacefully.

The solution is.....there isn't one. Even if the city fathers announce tomorrow and "We're going to build more community mental health clinics," they will take time to build. And of course, the reality is, short of a miracle, the city fathers are not going to announce that they are going to build clinics, or do anything at all about the problem. As a country we try to take care of our severely disabled, but PDX has lost quite literally 3 to mental illness. They don't want to lose any more of their citizenry. And...with no other place to go, the tension against the police is rising.


That...is a problem with no easy answers, and one that may get worse instaad of better. I....have no idea what to do.

Good points. People frown upon any situation where a LEO shoots and possibly kills someone, they frown more when its a mentally challenged person. However, while both cases are bad, IMHO, I just dont see how either situation could be handled differently. I mean, you could have 2 people, person 1, just a pure badguy, who hates cops, robs, steals, etc., and person 2, who has mental issues, but isn't in the same group as person 1, yet they're both armed, and intend on shooting the cops. What is the cop supposed to do?

In that case that I mentioned, that happened where I work, I do not believe this guy was 'all there', thus the situation turned ugly very fast. It was a shame that the guy died, but....it seems to me, that when the cops are faced with a deadly force situation, the general public seems to think that they should not respond in the same fashion.

 

[Archangel M]

But I think it's incredibly hypocritical to consistently argue that cops are always in the right, because they're just not.

Who has done that? I think that every one of us has explicitly stated that this is not the case. However I don't think that the cops who shot a guy that shot at them were "in the wrong".

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Who has done that? I think that every one of us has explicitly stated that this is not the case. However I don't think that the cops who shot a guy that shot at them were "in the wrong".

1 look at either "war on photography" threads will clearly show that I don't view cops as 'always right'. Hell, I had a few folks tell me all I did was "cop bash" because I put up a half dozen threads in short order.

 

[Archangel M]

You can always find what you are looking for on the internet. If you want to find "bad cop" stories there they are.

At some point it seems to become more a matter of "what you are looking for" than it is the prevalence of the behavior IMO.

 

[Carol]

No one here has argued that cops are always in the right. Nor do we have posters (not regular ones, anyway) that offer knee jerk "Cops good Civilians bad" positions.

The discussions here dig past the opinions and get to the justifications. In the thread we had some months back about the Latino plumber from NYC who was jailed for 5 days for possession of .... coconut candy, I think there was at least one LEO that said the situation could be something that was bad (for the police). I am sure there are folks here, especially LEOs, that offer very strong support for the police. That's what they do and that's their game. If we had posts about telecom engineers, you'd here the same from me I guarantee it. But no one notices us. That's a good thing....the only time you notice us is when we are NOT doing our job. We like being unnoticed.

It sounds like there are a lot of mismanaged expectations in the PDX area. Mismanaged expectations cause more harm than actions.

So what is the fix? If everyone depends on the other to "do something", it won't be. So why the standoff?

For you instructors out there, have you ever had a student in class that just didn't want to learn? You tried to teach them, even gave your time to that one singular individual that may have been better invested in the enthusiastic folks that wanted to be there....especially the ones that tried really really hard but needed a li'l bit more reach to get their game on. But the ones that don't want to be there....they don't learn very much, do they?

Guy that lived across the hall from me at Berklee. He didn't want to be there. He REALLY didn't want to be there. But he was there because his parents wanted him to be there. So he never went to class, spent the time getting stoned, or drunk, got put on academic probation upon processing his first semester grades, and given the "hasta la vista, baby" upon processing his second semester grades. Don't anyone think a world class music school is an "easy ride".

What will it take to reach the people of PDX? There are more folks there that are like Georgia that have an open mind and heart. There are also a lot of folks out west that are very angry with the police and consistently point their angers at the enforcers of the laws, rather than the makers of the laws. I do not think it is unreasonable to say that partisan politics is a dominant factor here. It may not be the only factor, and it may not be the only dominant factor. But it is still a strong one, nonetheless, and regardless of one's own political compass, it is a factor that must be accounted for.

What if you were a police chief in this scenario? No...scratch that...what if you were the mayor?

Would you authorize a budget to spend millions of dollars...millions of dollars that could do a lot of things to benefit residents of the city of Portland....to build Community Police Stations and Public Outreach Centers and pay the overtime to get your seasoned veterans...you know, not the ones that just recite policy verbatim, the ones that KNOW the job...to work and interact with the public? Would you do that knowing the public may not give a rats backside regardless? Is that responsible management of the coffers? Or, come election time, will you be denigrated as someone squandering precious resources at a time when all of us are tightening our belts by pursuing unrealistic pet projects that everyone said would fail?

I don't know what the answer is. I suspect there needs to be more of a conciliatory voice from both sides before there will be any real results.

 

[Cryozombie]

Anarchist don't enjoy anarchy when it visits their domain?

friggin sily people I tell ya

Thats because a vast majority of these "Intellectual Anarchists" arent... they are social rebels and Neo-Beatniks, with no concept of actual anarchy. Politically I lean twords being a Free-market anarchist, (not to be confused with "anarchists" or "anarchy") and I have read a lot of the websites for these so-called anarchist groups, and most of them are just Liberals, Marxists or Green party people playing at being "bad". They are hard to take seriously, especially when you have seen "Real" anarchists armed with Riot Gear they cut from 50 gallon steel drums gearing up for a clash with riot cops in D.C.

A bunch of college kids and professors sitting around talking about how they are gonna have a food-distribution rally for the homeless is pretty tame at that point.

 

[MJS]

Lets look at the mental illness a bit. Officers spend a set amount of time in the academy, learning a variety of things, from firearms, laws, arrest, driving, to name a few. It would be nice if they got more time in certain areas, but what they get is what they get. Their job is to uphold the laws.

Mental health workers...pretty much every PD has access to some sort of mental health crisis team. IMO, they're pretty much useless. We take calls from them weekly, and there're many times, when officers are on scene at a call, and they request this 'team' to come to eval. someone. Why do I feel they're useless? Because if they were really helping the people with the mental illness, those people wouldn't be returned to their home, with little to nothing done. So the cycle repeats itself the next time, with the PD dealing with these people again....and again, and again, and again, and................

How much mental health training, along with everything else they have to learn, should the cops have, if any at all? Should the cops be doctors as well?

My point is, people seem to get upset with the cops because they supposedly dont know how to deal with the folks with mental issues, however, that IMO, should be fine, as there're people to deal with that...the crisis workers. Its like sending a cop to a structure fire. Sure, they go to help with traffic control, crowd control, etc, but they dont help the firefighters put out the fire. Why? Because they're LEOs not firefighters.

 

[MJS]

Gee, I thought I'd get at least 1 taker that was interested in talking about mental illness training for LEOs, and whether or not its something that should be done, or left to the pros.