Poomsae

[cali_tkdbruin]

In years past both taeguek and palgue were taught together. Now the taegueks are taught after 1st dan. Don't know why, but I thought that teaching both had a more "balanced" feel.(can't explain it any other way)

We should remember that each dojang is different and has their own teaching style and curriculim (sp?). Even though it's still Taekwondo, each school has their own method of teaching our art. That said, at my dojang we learn the Taegeuk poomse first as color belts, then after 1st dan we start into the Pal Gwes, in addition to the initial black belt forms. By 2nd dan we're proficient in all of the (8 each of the) Taegueks and Pal Gwes.

 

[exile]

...at my dojang we learn the Taegeuk poomse first as color belts, then after 1st dan we start into the Pal Gwes, in addition to the initial black belt forms. By 2nd dan we're proficient in all of the (8 each of the) Taegueks and Pal Gwes.

This is kind of funny---at least one other person on this thread has just the reverse of that: the Taegeuks are the BB forms along with the other more typical dan forms, and the Palgwes are the colored belt forms... it still strikes me as odd that there isn't some kind of principled way to determine the level of proficiency that should correspond to the various poomsae groups, or at least some consensus on how hard which of the poomsae groups is....

 

[terryl965]

You like knee/ribs for your personal use only, or is that the way you like your 1st dans to do it, too?

For my personal use my BB can preform it either way, which feel more comfitable to them, in competition it needs to be knee. head but for prctical use knee, rib cage

 

[wade]

Sorry, been busy getting ready for my semi-annual BB testing and Xmas party, finally got to the boards again. zDom and mango man, my take on the side kick in Koryo is it is to the chest or lower head level, not the ribs and that does make it a "higher sidekick". Every time I reffed at nationals we were told to downscore any one that kicked above the waist on that form.

andyjefferies: on SipJin moves 15-19-26 are the ones that changed. I think they are called Oreun Apkubi Bawimilgi (?). The dart fish shows them to be higher slightly above the face. The KKW site shows them to be right in front of the face but in the original vedios that I got from the KKW years ago and still have and use you also had to twist dramatically to the side and up while doing this block.

 

[zDom]

For my personal use my BB can preform it either way, which feel more comfitable to them, in competition it needs to be knee. head but for prctical use knee, rib cage

For those it is comfortable for, knee-head could be very practical, too. Most though, I agree, would be better off with the knee-ribs combo.

 

[TKDmel]

Scott it is Knee and then head in the ne way of things. I personally like it knee and then side of rib cage but that is just me maybe those head kick are getting harder to do.

I second your opinion about knee to mid-section. That was how I was taught and to me it made more sense, since a kick to the knee would tend to make the attacker lower his upper body and a kick to the mid-section would seem to be where you would want to kick. Now, that being said, let me play devil's advocate here. Does not the "flashier" high kick exclude some people from getting a good score regardless if the lower kick is more powerful and done technically correct? I mean, I've seen some people send kicks to the ceiling with no power or proper technique and they won simply due to flexibility. I do agree that the forms need to have a uniform standard for the fairness of all involved. Just my $.02

 

[terryl965]

I second your opinion about knee to mid-section. That was how I was taught and to me it made more sense, since a kick to the knee would tend to make the attacker lower his upper body and a kick to the mid-section would seem to be where you would want to kick. Now, that being said, let me play devil's advocate here. Does not the "flashier" high kick exclude some people from getting a good score regardless if the lower kick is more powerful and done technically correct? I mean, I've seen some people send kicks to the ceiling with no power or proper technique and they won simply due to flexibility. I do agree that the forms need to have a uniform standard for the fairness of all involved. Just my $.02

Sir you are correct I have seen student throw these kick to the cieling but had no power bad tecniques and still won. It is a sad thing when show become more of the standard than tech. does

 

[mango.man]

My experience has been the the little girl with pig-tails doing koryo that kicks earthworms then the rafters will win a poomseh competition everytime. Just my observations.

That being said I always told my child to watch the scores that the judges give to the kids that go first and adjust your form appropriately. If the judges score higher for someone that goes faster or slower. If the judges scrore higher for louder or more extended kihaps. If the judges score higher for higher kicks. Whatever it is that you see that they are giving better scores for, try to incorporate it into your poomseh, regardless of if it the the correct way or not.

We have generally had good results using that method so long as my child was not the first one up to bat.

 

[Miles]

That being said I always told my child to watch the scores that the judges give to the kids that go first and adjust your form appropriately. .......We have generally had good results using that method so long as my child was not the first one up to bat.

You are a good coach! Unfortunately many referees (excluding TX BB of course) favor flash over function.

Miles

 

[terryl965]

Mango.manI certainly see your point but does that not send the wrong message here, I mean go ahead and do it wrong just to recieve a medals. Is it not better to do it right and walk away with nothing but the pride you have for not compremizing your intregrity.

I tell my childern the same as my students do it the right way, trophies, medal and plaques are great but proper techniques will stay with you alot longer than any medal.

Just my own .02 cents

I do not mean to dis-respect anybody here on there teaching.

 

[terryl965]

You are a good coach! Unfortunately many referees (excluding TX BB of course) favor flash over function.

Miles

Thank Miles that means alot to me since he is one of my people .

 

[mango.man]

Terry, the purpose of competition is to win, is it not? Not win at all costs or cheat, but to win under the rules of the competition. If the judges are scoring based on their flawed interpretation of the rules, then the competitor should adjust to give them the best chance of winning under the rules that they are seeing being used.

When it comes to doing forms in a non-competitive environment I ask my child to perform they way that whoever is watching expects it to be performed. The fact is that the GM at our school is not up to date on the current changes to poomseh that were introduced about a year ago. My child is well aware of those changes though.

Are you suggesting that I have my child do her poomseh in testing before her GM the correct way over his way? After all, that is the only way that she will walk out of testing knowing that she is walking away with pride and having not compromised her integrity. Of course she will not be promoted, but that it OK because she did it right. Or should she do it the GM's way so that she gets a new belt / gup / poom / dan etc even though she has compromised her integrity and pride?

How is it wrong to know and understand the right way of doing a poomseh but to do it the wrong way in order to advance in rank or win a medal if that is what those who hold your fate in their hands want to see?

 

[terryl965]

First of mango.man I'm not suggesting anything to you, I simply made a comment. I believe if you are KKW certified then the poomsae should be done there way that is all. I go and make changes based on that weather or not any or all of my students come back with a medal in poomsae his here or there. I expect them to be professional and do there best and let the chips fall as they may.

Are you suggesting that I have my child do her poomseh in testing before her GM the correct way over his way? After all, that is the only way that she will walk out of testing knowing that she is walking away with pride and having not compromised her integrity.

mango your GM way is the right way at your school and that is the right way when testing.

I'm a old school type of guy to me doing the right thing always is the best way. Sometimes in defeat we learn more about ourself then in victory.

As I have stated in more than one occasion each there own, and in my world it is the right way all the time.

How is it wrong to know and understand the right way of doing a poomseh but to do it the wrong way in order to advance in rank or win a medal if that is what those who hold your fate in their hands want to see?

Here at my school the parent and adult know that what I teach is more than a medal, it is about being the Best that you can be at that moment in your life. My teaching are a life journey not a moment in time. A medal or a test means nothing compared to what there life hold for them, I prepare my student for a life adventure.


When we go shopping is it wrong to eat a grape and not pay for it, sure it is does anybody cares that you ate a grape and not pay for it no of course not but what does that tell a child it is ok to steal as long as it is withen reason. To me taking one grape or stealing a car stereo is the same thing.

Now please understand I'm not saying you or anubody else does this and this is just a way to explain what I feel about always doing the right thing.

As I said previously I mwan no dis-respect to anybody. I just feel my teaching are more important than any medal would be, my student know that they are winners no matter what happens on the matt and in the heat of competition.

I appreciate your post and I understand everyone frustration over the way poomsae are judged at tournaments. But I cannot change everybody ways but I can control what need to be held in the standards that the Kukkiwon holds.

Thank you and I hope I get the chance to meet you at national or the USA open this year, it would be an honor to meet someone that cares so much for there child.:asian:

Terry

 

[terryl965]

Sorry I forgot to address one thing here

Terry, the purpose of competition is to win, is it not? Not win at all costs or cheat,

To me competition is not about winning it is about facing your unknowns and doing your very best, as lond as you know you have given your best at that particular moment that is all anyone can ask.

 

[mango.man]

I mean no disrespect either. We just have different views on things, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

To us though competing is about finishing as close to 1st as possible. Doing our best and facing the unknown can be done anytime. But when we compete we are competing with 1 goal in mind and that is to win within the confines of the rules.

And comparing doing forms in a manner as appropriate to those judging you, albeit incorrectly, to stealing is just absurd. I'd say that you are comparing apples and oranges, but at least both of them are fruits so they do have something in common. But how do you compare kicking at the rafters in Koryo to impress a group of judges that like to see that, to stealing a car stereo?

Finally, as I see it in competition a person has 3 ways to perform. I would like to ask, which form, in your opinion, should be done in competition for a first dan?

A) Koryo as it is apparent the judges want to see it (Often involves kicking at earthworms and then rafters)
2) Koryo as you were taught by your instructor / master / grandmaster (For us that would mean kicking at ankles then knees, which has resulted in losses everytime except at the tournament our school hosts each year, during which all those other kids that come out and do it right will lose to the kids from our school that are doing it wrong because the judges are from our school and to them that is the right way.)
iii) Koryo according to the standands of the WTF or KKW (Knee and chest)

 

[terryl965]

To me mango.man it would be option three if it is a WTF or Kukkiwon sanction event.

Now here comes the butt we can not always be at those event if we are at AAU let say it is earthworm and cielings. At our school it is knee and chest. Right now they are trying to standard the judging for poomsae, to me it cannot be done but they are trying. I understand your views about winning but I believe you may just emphosize it to much, as I say it appears that way. Our school has been ranked in the state of Texas as one of the best tech. school out there and I like that aspect of it.

Mango the comparasin maybe a little off but I was trying to do the best job trying to describe how I teach, it is difficult when you are not here to see. My students have always fielded well at every event from the USA to JO or National in both poomsae and fighting so I would suspect I'm lucky in getting top quality referees.

I know I'll be in Sacremento and so will you maybe we can meet and talk it would be a pleasure sir. I hope your daughter continues on her path to the Olympics. Maybe my son and her will make the same team who knows.

 

[mango.man]

I presume you meant San Jose, not Sacramento? Yes, it is our plan to be there and it would be an honor to meet you.

 

[terryl965]

I presume you meant San Jose, not Sacramento? Yes, it is our plan to be there and it would be an honor to meet you.

Yea I'll be sacremento for another tournament but Yes San Jose, are you not going to Florida in February for the US Open?

By the way I can appreciate a great converstation like we had it was a pleasure, so many folks get upset to easy sometimes.

 

[mango.man]

No Florida for us. We are going to Holland in March for the Dutch Open and therefore can't afford the trip to Florida.

Which event will you be attending in Sacramento and when?

 

[wade]

As an A-1 USAT Referee and as a level one USAT coach I tend to see this from both sides of the floor. My feeling is that if your player does it technically correct and wins this is good. But!!!!! if your player loses against a player that does a wrong move but is more dynamic than your player and impresses the judges more, well, you just lost, end of story. Don't change the form, make the player better...........