Police brutality.

[loki09789]

Dont poke the bear.

btw: Who carries "slapjacks" anymore??

Is this another name for or a misnaming of a 'blackjack'? I have never heard of a slapjack, but that doesn't mean it aint out there or that there is another name for the same tool.

 

[lonecoyote]

I think slapjack might be another name for flat sap. I've seen one as recently as about 5 years ago. Flat piece of lead wrapped in leather, looks kind of like a blackjack. No one should ever fight with an officer, no matter the circumstances, just cover and pray, because you're never fighting with just one officer, if there's trouble there's more on the way. And they will use how ever many it takes.

 

[8253]

you shouldnt believe everything you hear. however if it did happen without cause the person who beat on him should be reprimanded. as far a fighting with a LEO, it is probably not a good idea. They usually win.

 

[dearnis.com]

The original post says the guy was stopped, beat and let go.

so it does....16 hours on duty does not help reading comprension/retention.

Some southern departments still carry blackjacks/slapjacks; a decent tool (IMO), but between the liability and the risk of blood-borne pathogens in this day and age one whose time has passed.

 

[rompida]

It was a blackjack/slapjack. Sorry for the confusion. I hadn't thought about his story in such a long time. Anyway, it wasn't all that long ago. Maybe 5 years ago, in southern part of North Carolina. Don't want to give specifics, you know to protect the... guilty. Its a rough town. I had the misfortune of being there when I was a young teen. Happened to be there when there was a KKK rally. Wasn't a pretty scene. The cops were being threatened from both sides - the clan members and the very upset people on the streets who were on the verge of rioting. Bottom line - Its a job I wouldn't want, but can understand how an officer might hit first and then ask questions once the person was cuffed.

 

[Bammx2]

......"I fought the law and the.....law won!"

"yes sir" and "no sir" goes a long way..........
Being from North Carolina originally,I do know of one incident on a small town where this actually happened; a man was hit for no good reason by a cop....and the man kicked off!
The only thing that saved HIS *** was the fact that it all took place in FRONT of the dash-cam and the whole thing was recorded.
And considering both my "granpappies" was police chiefs of "podunk" towns way back when.........
It doesn't hurt one bit to be AS POLITE AS YOU CAN to any police officer!
Just use common sense and don't push it...
run like hell if you need too! they aren't really allowed to shoot you in the back

 

[Tgace]

Oh I know what a slap/blackjack is...I just thought they disappeared in the 60's.

 

[Gary Crawford]

I got unneccisarily roughed up by a cop once.I called every lawyer in town,none of them would even consider taking the case.They had to live there too.Best advise-don't piss off the cops!

 

[Tgace]

A lot of this is "perspective"..for example, I once was dealing with a warrant suspect by myself. I told him to put his hands on my car ("spread him out") and told him not to move. He moved and I kicked out his legs and pinned him to the trunk with my arm. Now Im sure he thought I was "unnecessarily roughing him up" (his girlfriend sure did) because hey, whats wrong with picking your hands up off a trunk? But from my point of view its was much different.

 

[muaythaifreak]

Good point Tgace, the average person does not realize what an LEO goes through every day. When someone does not comply with an order from an LEO, all kinds of **** can happen and often does. If you're not going to comply with keeping your hands on the car, what else are you not going to comply with. When you're dealing with LEO's, you need to do what they tell you to do, exactly as they tell you to do it. It's for your own protection as well as theirs. An LEO's main objective is to go home at the end of his/her shift. And most will do whatever is necessary to insure that they will be able to do just that.

 

[MichiganTKD]

I understand that. However, if an officer is being a jerk or not listening to me, I refuse to just take it. I'm not anti police. Not at all. I am pro sticking up for myself if I have to. If a police officer is being rough with me and does not listen to my complaints, I will stick up for myself. If he tries to use a stick or spray or whatever, I will respond appropriately.
We have this mentality in this country that a police officer can do no wrong and is always right. 99% of the time he probably is. But again, I will stick up for myself if it comes down to it, and I mean no disrespect against cops.

 

[Flatlander]

I believe that though you come from a noble position on this, dealing with law enforcement from this type of position increases the likelyhood of getting tangled up in legal messes. The fact is that we are all subject to rule of law. A police officer's job is to administer that law. Regardless of his temperment or approach, when he's talking, you're best to pay attention.

However, if an officer is being a jerk or not listening to me, I refuse to just take it.

Becoming arguementative just reinforces in his mind that this could go somewhere. Keep in mind that these guys get into violent situations (on average) more in one day than most civilians do in their whole life. They come from a position of toal aawareness, and are always ready to escalate. They are there to win, and must do so at all costs.

There are no greater percentages of police officers "out to get you" than there are regular civilian folk out walking the streets. In fact, I would argue that there are likely fewer. We need to let these people do their jobs. If you feel you've been wronged, escalate it up the chain of command.

If you have a problem dealing with the authorities, move to Afghanistan for a while, and see what you learn.

No disrespect to anyone's point of view. My family is all currently LEO or retired. This one touches me in the bad spot.

 

[Tgace]

Posted this on an old thread but it bears repeating here...

Dont argue law on the scene. If you think Im right or wrong, on the street Im "always right". In court I can be wrong. That may sound pompus, but thats the way it goes. If I say "you are under arrest" you are under arrest even if you didnt do it. If I was mistaken, court is where that will be decided. If I was negligent or did something illegal then I could face charges later. Resisting, running or fighting will just result in more charges. And those can stand up even if my arrest was illegal.

 

[Cryozombie]

Dont argue law on the scene. If you think Im right or wrong, on the street Im "always right". In court I can be wrong. That may sound pompus, but thats the way it goes. If I say "you are under arrest" you are under arrest even if you didnt do it. If I was mistaken, court is where that will be decided. If I was negligent or did something illegal then I could face charges later. Resisting, running or fighting will just result in more charges. And those can stand up even if my arrest was illegal.

While I dont disagree that is "The way it is" it doesnt make it right...

As LEO, your "opinion" may be that on the "Scene" you are a god among men, until the courts prove you wrong...

What about the "innocent" guy you drag in, who gets stripped, printed, humiliated, detained, and AND, even if he is "cleared of charges" still has an ARREST on his record? I really dont like the idea that the LE Community who is there to "Protect and Serve" is running amok with the attitude of

Im "always right".

because regardless of how well it turns out in court, its not the LEO's reputation, time and considerable amount of money in the trash... But I'm sure that isn't considered.

I'm not anti-cop either, and, athough I have been treated completely unfairly on several past occasions, I still manage to treat the police I come in contact with in a respectful manner. I train with cops, I attend BBQs with cops, and my father is a retired cop... I know what they go thru...

But I also hear stories of them "abusing" their power "just because". At a BBQ I was at last summer, one of them was telling a story and lauging about macing some woman for no reason, except because she argued with him... and the other cops there just laughed about it. Hell, there is a thread in the Firearms section about a cop who tased a 9year old... It happens... And I think its the small handfull of cops who think "I am always right" that make the rest of us afraid of the majority of "good cops".

And, Tgace, that is by no way a slam on you, I dont know you, From most of your posts I believe that you are in the majority of good cops, but your words did hit home with the point I was trying to make...

 

[Tgace]

Example: You didnt steal a guys $20.00..the "guy" calls the cops, tells me that you stole his $20.00, saw you do it and is willing to sign a complaint, you were in the same place as this guy at the same time, you have $20.00 (of your money) in your pocket. Im arresting you. You are totally innocent but if you argue, ignore my orders, fight, resist, run, you are going to pile up legitimate charges even if in court the guy admits that he "framed" you.

or more realistically, your girlfriend calls and says you hit her and wants you arrested (even if you didnt) the same thing goes.

You are looking at my statement like it was being said by that cop on "The Shield". Im coming from the point of view that if I have "probable cause" (which isnt absolute proof) to arrest you, I am "right" regardless of what you know or think...trying to "fight it out" on the scene is a BAD idea. Do you recommend that people be allowed to debate with the police over if they are really under arrest or not on the street??

For the record I said "Dont argue the Law...", I never said that If I Tase a 9yo or OC somebody for the hell of it "Im always right."

 

[Tgace]

But I also hear stories of them "abusing" their power "just because". At a BBQ I was at last summer, one of them was telling a story and lauging about macing some woman for no reason, except because she argued with him... and the other cops there just laughed about it.

Ive seen you reference this story a few times now. A question I have is was this woman arrested? Or did he just spray any passerby for the heck of it and go on his merry way? If I was arresting a woman and she began "arguing": read screaming, waving her arms around, refusing to obey commands and giving me the impression that she was going to fight my attempts to cuff her, Id probably spray her too.


Revisit this thread....
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12084

 

[psi_radar]

This is one of those disturbing parts of living under a "system." You're in "the system" pretty much as soon as those lights go on in the squad car, and you're at its mercy until you're "out" through proper procedures. And it's up to that officer how deeply he wants to take you into the system--depending of course on the evidence against you. Like as was already said, an old girlfriend can lodge a complaint against you, and most likely you'll spend a night in jail, have to go to court, etc. even if she's lying. This could result in the loss of your job, lawyers fees, etc., and there's not much you can do about it. You are innocent until proven guilty, but along the way, you'll probably have to prove your innocence.

I've been at the hands of a "overzealous" rookie cop and luckily I had the presence of mind to just take what he was giving. Later, as the officer's handling of the situation was reviewed by a senior officer, they pretty much dropped everything.

I think the most scary part of it is where the line is drawn. LEOs have a tough job but I don't think they realize that most people are simply not used to accepting the types of physical manipulations they throw down without eliciting a serious physical reaction. I, personally, woud not respond well to someone trying to hogtie me. It's against my nature. I doubt most LEOs would respond well either. Powers that be, be damned, it's hard to take getting your face shoved into a cruiser if you feel you haven't done anything wrong. And where along the line, when you're getting kicked in the head, does self preservation have to kick in, and the system be damned?

 

[Tgace]

Dont take this the wrong way, but just because you "feel" youve done nothing wrong dosent mean you havent. What kind of "system" would you recommend? One where we have to have 2 lawyers and a judge at the scene to determine if an arrest is warranted? I can fully understand and sympathize with a person whos been arrested in instances like I previously mentioned. From my point of view however, very few people say "yes officer I did it, please take me to jail." I hear "I didnt do it!" from people Ive observed "doing it". If I had a hand held 100% reliable lie detector, my job would be so much easier.

People want us to "arrest bad guys" or "do something" about stop sign passers, kids smoking pot in the parks, noise complaints etc. etc. Until its them or their loved ones who are being arrested/ticketed.

As you said, this is how our "system" works. And its held up as an example in many corners of the world. Fortunately, our system is much "kinder and gentler" now believe it or not. Ask people who had LEO contact here back in the 60's-70's what it was like then. I believe that the majority of instances are deserving arrests. Just yesterday my partner and I were complimented by a guy we were arresting for how considerate and polite we were. The day before we had to drag a person out of a closet, needless to say we didnt get as good of a review.

BTW: The only time Ive seen "hogtying" is when a subject is trying to kick out windows, banging their heads into the windows/cage or refusing to be put into the car after arrest. If you get yourself to that point you have gone "over the edge" already.

 

[Tgace]

From the US Dept. of Justice...

Among those patted down by police, 70% said they were also
handcuffed or force was threatened or used during the contact.
For the 5 out of 6 respondents who attributed the contact to police
suspicions about them and who were not patted down, less than 6%
reported that they were handcuffed or threatened with force or had force
used against them.

It cannot be determined from these data the order in which the
police decisions occurred to pat down, handcuff, or invoke force
or the threat of force or even whether the police considered
respondents as suspects prior to engaging in any of these
actions. What is known is that about 8 out of 10 people who
felt the police considered them possible suspects or who
indicated they believed that the police were suspicious about
them during a contact also reported they were not patted down,
were not handcuffed, and were not threatened with force.

Potential provocation during police-citizen contacts

Because of the small number of respondents in the Police-Public
Contact Survey who reported use of force or the threat of force,
no firm conclusions can be drawn about possible provocation by the respondent
even if he or she may have self-reported such provocation during
a forceful contact with police. Therefore, the specific actions
of the respondent are not presented.

Respondents who reported that they were threatened with force or
against whom force was used were queried about any of their
behaviors during the contact with police that could have
provoked police. Among the estimated 500,000 persons who were
threatened with force or against whom force was actually used,
most self-reported that they had engaged in at least 1 of the
following -- threatening the officer, assaulting the officer,
arguing with the officer, interfering with the officer in the
arrest of someone else, possessing a weapon, blocking an officer
or interfering with his/her movement, trying to escape or evade
the officer, resisting being handcuffed, resisting being placed
in a police vehicle, inciting bystanders to become involved,
trying to protect someone else from an officer, or drinking or
using drugs at the time of the contact.

Of the 6,421 persons interviewed in the Police-Public Contact
Survey, 14 (representing 500,000 persons) said police used or
threatened force. The 14 were then asked a series of questions
intended to determine if their conduct at the time may have pro-
voked police to use force. Ten gave answers that suggested they
may have provoked police. Answers from the remaining four did
not suggest provocation. No firm conclusions can be drawn from
these results. The main reason is that the sample upon which
results are based is too small to yield a reliable national
estimate of the number of instances of unprovoked police use of force.

Conclusions

Given the small number of cases, a preliminary conclusion that
could be drawn is that use of force is rare in police-citizen
contacts and it is often accompanied, according to the self-reports
of respondents, by some possibly provocative behavior. Larger samples of
citizens in the future would help to clarify both the extent and
type of provocation in cases of police use of force and, more
importantly, shed light on those interactions in which no
potential provocation was reported to have occurred.

 

[Cryozombie]

Ive seen you reference this story a few times now. A question I have is was this woman arrested? Or did he just spray any passerby for the heck of it and go on his merry way? If I was arresting a woman and she began "arguing": read screaming, waving her arms around, refusing to obey commands and giving me the impression that she was going to fight my attempts to cuff her, Id probably spray her too.

Tgace,

I cannot say if she was arrested, as the cop never stated this, at least while I was there. It was my understanding she was still in her car the time, however. To cover his a$$ I would bet he did in fact find some reason to arrest her. The thing about this story that bugs me most tho, is not that she got maced, hell, better that she got maced than beaten with a club, but that all the other cops at the BBQ got a good laugh at her expense. It was like no one thought to question why he would mace a woman simply for being beligerant, it made ME think that the police take pleasure in being bullys...

And by your own admission... although not in these exact words...

"Perception is reality, Until Perception Changes"

Even if they were good cops, with justification for doing it... that was not the way the story was being told... Imagine if I came on this board,

"Dude, you should have seen it, this guy in this bar was getting all beligerent and I did a jumping sidekick and broke his sternum, and he fell to the ground and it was so cool!"

How many people here would attack me for my attitude and tell me that I didnt understand the spirit of the martial arts? The situation may have been different, and I may actually have been justified, but did it sound that way?