Point Fighting: Is it truly Karate?
- Thread starter Probs92
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drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Like martial arts. Not all sports are created equal.
"All"? Keyshi Fighting Method, Krav Maga, Aikido, Balintawak, Aiki Ju-Jutsu, Ninjutsu?
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
JR 137
Grandmaster
When I trained full contact, I believed in this fully. It makes total sense on paper. You're not going to throw punches and kicks full power if you don't constantly throw them that way or near full power in practice.
I came to a realization a few years after I left; pro boxers don't spar full power. At least the ones who have any longevity in their career anyway. Yet they don't seem to have any issues hitting full power when the time is right. Quite sure MMA fighters with any sort of career don't spar full power either. They don't seem to have issues turning that on when need either.
I know, I'm no where near a pro boxer nor MMAer, so one could tell me "become as good as them and we'll talk."
IMO, throw shots at a safe/sustainable power level in sparring. Use bags, dummies, etc. to train full or near full power. Yes, hitting bags is part of "how you train/practice," but people don't always think of it that way.
Never sparring full power without supplementing it a bag is a recipe for disaster. Constantly sparring full power is also a recipe for disaster IMO.
Agreed. I think that sparring at full power is a good way to develop skills for fighting, and also a good way to get hurt. I don't do it (moderate power, sure). My brain is how I make my living, how I lead my life, and what I train to protect. I wouldn't be protecting it if I went all-out in sparring. I don't think my body would even hold up to full contact sparring any more. I think you need some power in some of your sparring, so you don't develop the habit of always pulling the strikes. For power, give me bags, BOB, and pads to beat up.
I'm sure MMA pros and Boxing pros go at it hard at times (other than paid fights). I know that the sparring I've watched has always been softer than their fights. And when they hit the heavy bag, they make it cry.
Yeah, baby!
You're way too excited about that, bro.
The short answer to the question: "Point Fighting: Is it Trully Karate" Is "no." Karate was not designed for sport. In most of the world it may have become that, but that is something completely different. If you think of the idea that "kata is karate" then you will understand that karate kumite would be the application of kata techniques. Point fighting completely separates kata and kumite. True karate doesn't work in a sport environment. The techniques weren't designed for that. Not to mention all the time spent on...in most cases only talking about...developing "karate power." How? If you practice to not hit then that is what you ingrain into your muscle memory. I can't teach you too push by having you practice pulling for 2 hours per day. In Okinawa karate was self defense, period. Some spiritual/self improvement bits were added but it was about self preservation at its root. Japan got hold of it and saw a way to create a whole new sport. Karate was dead after that. Today even the most traditional Okinawan dojo (most, not all) are soft. If you've ever read Choki Motobu you would see how much he disagreed with the "new" karate Japan was pushing. It's a complicated issue though and us as practitioners are no help. When karate is winning then the proud karateka start bragging about karate's fighting prowess. When it is losing suddenly "karate isn't about fighting."
It may have developed into a sport, but it certainly wasn't created as one. It was created as a means of civilian self protection.
That's not the story from Okinawa.
So karate didn't exist before the 1920's?
I've never seen one that was like this.
Exactly.
We have a high turnover of students and a great many visitor. Oh and before you ask, we have a high turnover because we are a military club with just a couple of civvies.
Who?
In his memoirs, Funakoshi writes that the phonetic word "karate" was in use on Okinawa. It was more common simply to refer to it as "te", but the full term was used. And the kanji (for "kara") used were both the one for "Chinese" and the one for "empty", though the one for "Chinese" seemed more common.
Buka.... that made me laugh...
Who remembers the pic (probably more than one) of Master Hee Il Cho nailing the canvas hanging heavy bag with the jump-spinning side kick and the filling just exploding out the other side... NICE! Talk about a dude to want to emulate... That bag was probably a 60-80 lb bag and he was just destroying it.... Awesome!
On point-fighting. It is specialized tag,and no more. If you practice all the time, and your goal is simply to get good at point-fighting, no worries, go for it. Just don't be deluded, as such delusions are dangerous, both to you and to people who you might think you can protect.
If you think it is actually karate, and valid as a self defense skillset, or fighting method, I would nvite you to look up the next Kyokushin and try out said skillset there, in that venue. I can absolutely promise you that you will find it... educational.
As with other things in life, training full-power has it's place. Everything in moderation. Put on the big pads, complete head protection, perhaps even some rib protection, hand and footgear, and get after it. Just be prepared to feel sore as heck the next day, if you were doing it right with someone close to your own skill level.
But, don't train that way every day, either. You can lose a month or more if you crack a single rib, and that happens Easy. The loss in training time from injuries costs much more than simply cycling it up and down.
Who remembers the pic (probably more than one) of Master Hee Il Cho nailing the canvas hanging heavy bag with the jump-spinning side kick and the filling just exploding out the other side... NICE! Talk about a dude to want to emulate... That bag was probably a 60-80 lb bag and he was just destroying it.... Awesome!
On point-fighting. It is specialized tag,and no more. If you practice all the time, and your goal is simply to get good at point-fighting, no worries, go for it. Just don't be deluded, as such delusions are dangerous, both to you and to people who you might think you can protect.
If you think it is actually karate, and valid as a self defense skillset, or fighting method, I would nvite you to look up the next Kyokushin and try out said skillset there, in that venue. I can absolutely promise you that you will find it... educational.
As with other things in life, training full-power has it's place. Everything in moderation. Put on the big pads, complete head protection, perhaps even some rib protection, hand and footgear, and get after it. Just be prepared to feel sore as heck the next day, if you were doing it right with someone close to your own skill level.
But, don't train that way every day, either. You can lose a month or more if you crack a single rib, and that happens Easy. The loss in training time from injuries costs much more than simply cycling it up and down.
Ah you see that's your organisation, not 'everyone'. I've never seen a full contact points competition even without head contact.
Hardly a luxury we had two students who were killed in Afghanistan. However I know many dojos that have people who come in and they go out.
No fighter puts points fighting on his fight record. Liddell has a kick boxing record certainly but as many of his wins were by KO they weren't point fighting, he did karate when he was 12 but is actually known for kempo. he has also done boxing, again not point sparring. Looking at Machido's biography it doesn't seem that he would have done point fighting very much if at all, he was boxing at 16, it would be unlikely to find someone doing no touch point fighting and boxing as well as Muay Thai and Sumo all of which are contact. It's recorded he fought his brother in a karate competition and left him with a scar so again unlikely to be contactless points.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
A sports element is a pretty important development though. Otherwise you can't interact with other people in any sort of evolutionary manner.
You don't test for long enough and chi balls start to sound reasonable.
Points competition is no touch basically. A point is scored after an approximate 'hit' usually accompanied by a very loud kiai to alert the judges you almost hit them. the 'fight' stopped, points awarded then they start again. Any blood drawn then the blooded person wins, the other disqualified.
Robal, the person in those videos is certainly a Machido but it's Lyoto's brother Shinzo winning. Nor is it 'point karate'. 10th Funakoshi Gichin Cup World Karate-do Championships Tournamentāmatch results here!
Robal, the person in those videos is certainly a Machido but it's Lyoto's brother Shinzo winning. Nor is it 'point karate'. 10th Funakoshi Gichin Cup World Karate-do Championships Tournamentāmatch results here!
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