Pin or Check?

[Touch Of Death]

So if a guy has his arm across his body and your position is cancelling that weapon, I just don't buy that it doesn't exist; however, most positional checks should be activated or done as strikes. And no one can accuse the UKF of not strike checking; so, I imagine the Umbilical check can be done well or poorly just like any thing else.
Sean
Please come to the Mr. Pick seminar in Spokane this month. Contact info is at www.Kickinfun.com

 

[Doc]

Another way we could look at his is: What is the goal that we want to acheive? Lone Kimono involves pinning the hand, so we can acheive that arm break. Crossing Talon involves a counter grab, so that we can counter strike. Now against the wrist grab, I can move my arm counter clock wise, laying the back of my hand over theirs, hit the arm off with my left and counter strike with my right. Acheived goals with both methods. Now, looking at DS, I can step back w/o the pin, causing a disruption in his balance and then do the block and follow up moves.

Not really.

 

[Doc]

Thats correct, they just may let go. Again, it goes back to what the goal is. Do we want to pin, keeping them momentarily in place, so we can counter strike? Do we want to get the hand off? If they let go, thats fine. I've eliminated the current problem, that being the lapel grab.

No you've taken yourself back to 'square one' and increased his offensive options, and increased your defensive problems.

 

[Doc]

I'm not clear on the boyancy thing at all, I will have to work that pin and concentrate on that to see where you're coming from. Might you elaborate? As for vulnerability, I'm assuming you mean from a third party?

That arm position does not support proper structure or breathing. You cannot settle nor can you maintain your position. You body is vulnerable to strikes because your primary frontal cavities will be open.

 

[Bode]

That arm position does not support proper structure or breathing. You cannot settle nor can you maintain your position. You body is vulnerable to strikes because your primary frontal cavities will be open.

I can attest to the efficacy of this buoyant arm position. The ability to settle your weight is drastically reduced. In particular I enjoy the vulnerability demonstration or "shields up." With my arm in this position I really feel the difference when someone strikes my chest or abdomen. Just a slight adjustment with the palm parallel or facing inward makes all the difference.

It makes sense. When the palm is facing up we are communicating to the body that we need strength in the ability to raise our arms. i.e. in the vertical plane. (Muscle recruitment plays a significant role here I imagine).

 

[Doc]

I can attest to the efficacy of this buoyant arm position. The ability to settle your weight is drastically reduced. In particular I enjoy the vulnerability demonstration or "shields up." With my arm in this position I really feel the difference when someone strikes my chest or abdomen. Just a slight adjustment with the palm parallel or facing inward makes all the difference.

It makes sense. When the palm is facing up we are communicating to the body that we need strength in the ability to raise our arms. i.e. in the vertical plane. (Muscle recruitment plays a significant role here I imagine).

"Muscle Re-assignment" per "Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation"

 

[MJS]

Not really.

Care to elaborate??

 

[MJS]

No you've taken yourself back to 'square one' and increased his offensive options, and increased your defensive problems.

So, basically anyone who does the technique different, different meaning w/o the pin, is wrong?

 

[Doc]

So, basically anyone who does the technique different, different meaning w/o the pin, is wrong?

Its never a question of right or wrong. It's about ineffective, effective, more effective, and most effective relative to your goals.

The question here is your goals of survival, and the possibilities that exist to prevent you from accomplishing the goals.

If you were to execute this against a committed and determined grabber, without the second hand this could become a strength contest, or he could punch you because of lack of width control, or he could let go and square off, etc.

However if your goal is to simply get away, maybe you could wrestle your arm from him, and maybe you couldn't.

No one has addressed the attack coming from the flank, which is where it is supposed to be. This changes your options but enhances his. fact is there are many options and some are better than others, and we should give ourselves the greatest chance of survival possible.

Historically every other art in the universe from the original Chin-na, to Aikido, Jiujitsu, Taiji, Judo, Escrima, Kali, etc. All do this with a pin. Only in the eclectic motion kenpo with admittedly has a voluminous amount of information not present, would anyone even consider doing it without the pin. is it wrong? No, not as long as you survive. But this is typical. Motion kenpo often has problems knowing what to do with the other hand for the reason I mentioned above. Why be proactive and take control physically, instead, don't pin, just position it in case ......

 

[bujuts]

...Only in the eclectic motion kenpo with admittedly has a voluminous amount of information not present......

Sir, If I might ask, what is "motion kenpo" anyway? If you feel the need to expound on another thread to keep this discussion on the pin vs. check topic, of course that is your option.

Thank you in advance,

Steven Brown
UKF

Cancel that...google to the rescue....Cheers, SB

 

[bujuts]

It makes sense. When the palm is facing up we are communicating to the body that we need strength in the ability to raise our arms. i.e. in the vertical plane. (Muscle recruitment plays a significant role here I imagine).

The palm facing up? Is that the position you gentlemen are referring to as the one creating boyancy? If so, I suppose that would indeed be odd, and I think I even see how it could affect respiration. Either way, this isn't the way I do it, but given the difficulty in explaning these subtle differences via the written word, I can see many opportunities for misinterpretation. So much can be expressed with one hour on the mats, que no?

Cheers,

Steve Brown
UKF

 

[Doc]

Cancel that...google to the rescue....Cheers, SB

When Ed Parker was looking for a vehicle to expand into the commercial market, he discovered he could teach a conceptual 'motion based' product that was less labor intensive and required less knowledge of teachers, and didn't require strict basics or execution.

It is based on student and teacher personal preferences and rearrangement concepts built around rapid fire motions to overwhelm an attacker. Conceptually it doesn't address grappling either vertically or horizontally, or human anatomy, as well as other significant information that was contained in it's Chinese Kenpo predecessor.

It's look is derived from 'Splashing Hands' as practiced by Huamea Lefiti under Ark Yuey Wong, although it doesn't contain any of its information. In most instances the terms 'commercial,' and 'motion' are interchageable and Ed Parker Sr. had used both terms along with others as well. Despite the lack of information by design in the model, the head instructors knowledge still forms the base for any group of practitioners, and this accounts for the tremendous desparity between groups of participants in skill and knowledge.

Motion Kenpo evolved concurrently with other Ed Parker Kenpo vehicles, and because of its designed commerciality, is the most widely practiced and well known aspect of Mr. Parker's work. But it is not the most significant nor does it represent the bulk of Ed Parker knowledge. It is A Ed Parker Kenpo, not THE only Ed Parker kenpo vehicle.

Although it is a designed commercial product, all do not teach it as such, but even those are limited by its commercial design. If a kenpo is described as based on 'motion,' it is the commercial product pioneered succesfully by Ed Parker.

Old friend Dan Inosanto has posted on his site and article I wrote for Inside Kung fu magazine a number of years ago, that may help some understand the evolution of Kenpo in general in the Ed Parker lineage.

http://paintball.iisports.com/page.asp?content_id=8032