Parting Wings

[Doc]

Here's a thought: if someone is trying to push you, the momentum and power are directed away from him and toward you (the victim). The force of the attacker's arms are not directed in a "squeezing together" motion. Clearing his arms from the inside of his push is really just redirecting his forward momentum to slightly outward, but still letting his momentum carry him forward and closer to yourself. In effect, he walks into your defensive handstrikes as you take control of his center.

The difference is that you aren't trying to simply force/muscle his arms out in a splitting movement, devoid of forward momentum.

Your thoughts on this?

Complete the experiment assignment, and bring your observations and results.

 

[Doc]

Doc, your description made me think, I actually do mine a little bit differently. Rather than hand-to-wrist contact, mine is more forearm-to-forearm. I'm very much a rookie so please forgive me if I don't describe this very well.

While stepping back in to the left neutral stance, I thrust my arms up in between his (with my palms towards my face), snap my forearms outward, and push his arms apart. The snapping motion made the difference in me being able to actually force his arms apart.

Your thoughts?

No you make sense and are pretty close to a correct anatomical move, however you must address the attack and its implication relative to the actions wish to take. When the arme are configured for a pushing action, the body has a particular strength designed to support that action. You however are much closer to function than any of the other descriptions, but still let's examine the technique from the beginning. Speaking of what your response would be without discussing the appropriateness of the attack would be foolish.

Have you completed the experiment assignment?

 

[pete]

i'll chime in...
i was first shown this as an anticipated response to an 'attempted' push, much the same as most descriptions in the thread. it was only recently that i was taught the nature of the attack as an actual push with a specific reaction.
for Parting Wings, we step back because someone has actually made contact and pushed us, and by turning into the neutral bow we can anchor our elbows and clear the arms and use the opponents inward pressure on our arms to power the next strikes. this is done in a circular pattern, as one continuous movement.
for this to be effective we have to be in arms reach of the opponent, otherwise there are other better techniques to respond with. for example, if you are pushed back further, Twist of Fate would utilize a longer range weapon, the kick, then close the gap by stepping in and through with the manipulaiton.
if it is a steady oncoming push, as opposed to a single shove, Snaking Talon would be the choice to clear the arms away. Encounter with Danger would be the extreme of this group, having been pushed down.

techniques like Thrusting Wedge and Blinding Sacrifice would be better as anticipated action to attemped 2 hand pushes...

pete.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

i'll chime in...
i was first shown this as an anticipated response to an 'attempted' push, much the same as most descriptions in the thread. it was only recently that i was taught the nature of the attack as an actual push with a specific reaction.
for Parting Wings, we step back because someone has actually made contact and pushed us, and by turning into the neutral bow we can anchor our elbows and clear the arms and use the opponents inward pressure on our arms to power the next strikes. this is done in a circular pattern, as one continuous movement.
for this to be effective we have to be in arms reach of the opponent, otherwise there are other better techniques to respond with. for example, if you are pushed back further, Twist of Fate would utilize a longer range weapon, the kick, then close the gap by stepping in and through with the manipulaiton.
if it is a steady oncoming push, as opposed to a single shove, Snaking Talon would be the choice to clear the arms away. Encounter with Danger would be the extreme of this group, having been pushed down.

techniques like Thrusting Wedge and Blinding Sacrifice would be better as anticipated action to attemped 2 hand pushes...

pete.

Wonder who's been paying attention in Kenpo class?

DarK LorD

 

[jazkiljok]

some observations.

in a push/shove- the arms of the attacker are already contracting away from you since the energy is already expending upon contact.

in a forceful shove/push one usually is knocked back or should at least expect to be.

 

[Doc]

i'll chime in...
i was first shown this as an anticipated response to an 'attempted' push, much the same as most descriptions in the thread. it was only recently that i was taught the nature of the attack as an actual push with a specific reaction.
for Parting Wings, we step back because someone has actually made contact and pushed us, and by turning into the neutral bow we can anchor our elbows and clear the arms and use the opponents inward pressure on our arms to power the next strikes. this is done in a circular pattern, as one continuous movement.

If he comes forward with back up mass, your actions will not stop his forward momentum, nor will you have a stable base. Additionally you will be unable to move his arms apart if he is pushing the upper body, as the physical experiment with an intent attacker.

for this to be effective we have to be in arms reach of the opponent, otherwise there are other better techniques to respond with. for example, if you are pushed back further, Twist of Fate would utilize a longer range weapon, the kick, then close the gap by stepping in and through with the manipulaiton.

If he makes contact you still have the same problem and cannot withstand the forward pressure of a committed attack.

if it is a steady oncoming push, as opposed to a single shove, Snaking Talon would be the choice to clear the arms away. Encounter with Danger would be the extreme of this group, having been pushed down.

I agree that Snaking would be a better choice for the push for anatomical reasons, but you still have to solidify your base. How will you do that?

techniques like Thrusting Wedge and Blinding Sacrifice would be better as anticipated action to attemped 2 hand pushes...

Thrusting Wedge, yes. Blinding would get you arrested, especially for someone who hasn't even touched you.

Take a moment and explain please how you would obtain structural integrity when you step back.

 

[jonah2]

First of all, IF you got your arms on the inside of his arms, you will have a very difficult time moving his arms apart. This technique is not designed for an 'attempted push.'

experiment:

Have your training partner step forward with a pushing movement chest high and freeze.

Then place your hands inside his as if you were going to do the technique as described, and try to force the arms apart while your training partner actively resists.

Results?

ok - not at training, but, I work with a VERY big guy (non martial artist) who enjoys taking part in experiments when i'm thinking things through. Anyway - just got him to push me, then do it again and freeze as your experiment. I tried putting my arms between his to separate. Result - impossible (His arms are like my legs though) I could spread them if i come up through and into two outward extended thrusts (forwards at 45 deg out and down, but only using my shoulders and body momentum forward.

jonah

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

If he comes forward with back up mass, your actions will not stop his forward momentum, nor will you have a stable base. Additionally you will be unable to move his arms apart if he is pushing the upper body, as the physical experiment with an intent attacker.

If he makes contact you still have the same problem and cannot withstand the forward pressure of a committed attack.

I agree that Snaking would be a better choice for the push for anatomical reasons, but you still have to solidify your base. How will you do that?

Thrusting Wedge, yes. Blinding would get you arrested, especially for someone who hasn't even touched you.

Take a moment and explain please how you would obtain structural integrity when you step back.

Hmmm, guess I better throw My Kenpo that works away and study this new magic Kenpo that you're talking about.

DarK LorD

 

[Kenpodoc]

Actually, I started this thread to discuss the variations of the technique, not the legalities of the techniques. However, I may as well address it anyway. If we look at a good portion of the techniques, the same can be said of them as well. Do we need to break someones arm as in Lone Kimono just because they grab us?



Hmm...all the more reason to be well rounded enough to have other alternatives.

Mike

Personally I do Lone Kimono for a grab with intent to harm.

Jeff

 

[Kenpodoc]

Of course I can't speak for other jurisdictions but I know in California you will be locked up and down for quite awhile for doing that technique as described for an 'attempted push.'

How about some consistency. One minute we don't want to hit someone even though he's annouced he wants to hurt us unless he actually raises his hands, and the next minute we're ripping the eyes out of guy who's attempting to just 'push' us.

Doc,

I tend to use minor eye flicks near the eyes to disrupt my opponents alignment. Most have at least an involuntary flinch which allows me to be more effective with the rest of the technique. Eyes are well protected and it is difficult to actually put your finger in an eye. Beyond the issue of damage to the eye, few people can actually shove their finger in an eye with intent to blind.

As to the attempted push, I prefer to go off line if possible rather than staying in the middle.

Personally I find parting wings difficult to perform on a large person attacking with momentum and intent to disrupt my stance. A finger flick near their eyes causes most people to momentarily flinch and I suddenly look like a better martial artist.

I am curious. Do you teach a variation on this technique? How do you get the initial stability?

Respectfully,

Jeff

 

[pete]

If he comes forward with back up mass, your actions will not stop his forward momentum, nor will you have a stable base. Additionally you will be unable to move his arms apart if he is pushing the upper body, as the physical experiment with an intent attacker.

sure it does. the neutral bow provides the bracing angle for the applied force on the upper body. the clockwise rotation involved in going into the neutral bow allow you to separate his left arm with a complimentary clockwise rotation of your vertical right arm (elbow anchored to the knee). your left arm will make a similar, but counter-clockwise rotation inside his right arm. you are actually moving yourself into superior position more than trying to move his arms very far.

I agree that Snaking would be a better choice for the push for anatomical reasons, but you still have to solidify your base. How will you do that?

again, the neutral bow establishes the bracing angle.

Thrusting Wedge, yes. Blinding would get you arrested, especially for someone who hasn't even touched you.

doc, i am happily ignorant of most legal aspects of self defense, but from what i've read from your posts, it would seem that a situation may dicatate an action regardless of whether or not he's made first contact.

Take a moment and explain please how you would obtain structural integrity when you step back.

again, the step back would be the natural reaction to getting pushed, the neutral bow would establish the bracing angle.

thanks,
pete

 

[pete]

Hmmm, guess I better throw My Kenpo that works away and study this new magic Kenpo that you're talking about.

DarK LorD

not so fast dark lord, i'm still busy trying to nail down the kenpo that works!

 

[Doc]

sure it does. the neutral bow provides the bracing angle for the applied force on the upper body. the clockwise rotation involved in going into the neutral bow allow you to separate his left arm with a complimentary clockwise rotation of your vertical right arm (elbow anchored to the knee). your left arm will make a similar, but counter-clockwise rotation inside his right arm. you are actually moving yourself into superior position more than trying to move his arms very far.
again, the neutral bow establishes the bracing angle.

I have proved sir on numerous occasions all over the world with kenpo and non kenpo people that in fact, the neutral bow stepping backwards does not provide either a superior position or stable base absent a corrective mechanism to compensate for an anatomical breakdown inherent in the stepping back process.

doc, i am happily ignorant of most legal aspects of self defense, but from what i've read from your posts, it would seem that a situation may dicatate an action regardless of whether or not he's made first contact.

I am not disagreeing with whether or not you should act before contact, only in that action must be reasonable and commensurate with the attack. A 'weaponless' attempted grab by one man to another will not justify 'fingers in the eyes, and will get you incarcerated. This is something that has to be considered. Techniques should never be discussed in a vacuum, but should always be put into the context of the reality of the consequenses of our actions, as well as the failure of our actions to achieve the desired results.

again, the step back would be the natural reaction to getting pushed, the neutral bow would establish the bracing angle.

I suggest you first perform the first experiment honestly, and discover you cannot separate a persons arms, and then we could possibly move on from there. Once again on the neutral bow question sir, no it will not provide the 'bracing angle' and base you suggest, but I appreciate your usually articulate and well thought out insights.

 

[Ray]

I have proved sir on numerous occasions all over the world with kenpo and non kenpo people that in fact, the neutral bow stepping backwards does not provide either a superior position or stable base absent a corrective mechanism to compensate for an anatomical breakdown inherent in the stepping back process.

Not only did Doc prove it all over the world, he proved it in Omaha, Nebraska and I testify as a witness to that.

 

[Doc]

Personally I do Lone Kimono for a grab with intent to harm.

Jeff

I agree, but we who call ourselves 'skilled' should still have the ability to modulate the level of destruction of our actions. I suspect what you would do to a tipsy 'uncle bob' at a family gathering might be different from what you would do to a stranger in dark places.

 

[Doc]

Not only did Doc prove it all over the world, he proved it in Omaha, Nebraska and I testify as a witness to that.

Thank you sir.

 

[Kenpodoc]

I agree, but we who call ourselves 'skilled' should still have the ability to modulate the level of destruction of our actions. I suspect what you would do to a tipsy 'uncle bob' at a family gathering might be different from what you would do to a stranger in dark places.

True. That's been one of the most satisfying things that I've gotten from my martial arts the ability to consciously control my response to all sorts of things. I always loved playing with the dogs but now I get to gently redirect them. Fortunately I've not had to deal with a stranger in a dark place so most of my practical experience is in playing with dogs, children and friends and redirecting angry confused patients.

Jeff

 

[Doc]

True. That's been one of the most satisfying things that I've gotten from my martial arts the ability to consciously control my response to all sorts of things. ... redirecting angry confused patients.

Jeff

 

[Doc]

Doc,

I tend to use minor eye flicks near the eyes to disrupt my opponents alignment. Most have at least an involuntary flinch which allows me to be more effective with the rest of the technique.

That's not bad. Accessing the autonomic nervous system through the 'startle reflex' is a good thing, and can facilitate a structural breakdown of your attacker.

As to the attempted push, I prefer to go off line if possible rather than staying in the middle.

While there are other solutions as well, your preferred method is more practical than anything else presented so far.

Personally I find parting wings difficult to perform on a large person attacking with momentum and intent to disrupt my stance.

As most describe it, it is impossible under those circumstances. More than likely you will find yourself on the ground or in a standing grappling match with a committed attacker.

I am curious. Do you teach a variation on this technique? How do you get the initial stability?

Well first sir, the technique was never designed for a push, attempted or otherwise. Mr. Parker and I often discussed how techniques develop a life of their own when people began to interpret what they 'think' is happening and how to counter it. Much of the written material on techniques is like a 'starter kit' to get you moving and thinking. Unfortunately, they got people moving but many never got to the thinking part.

The way I do the technique would be difficult to describe however sir, this could be fixed rather easy, and stay pretty close to what people are already doing.

First change the attack to an attempted high bear hug.

Second, step forward with that 'move' everyone does, and the technique has a chance to actually work.

For those that consider what I teach as 'magic,' I suggest that the 'magic' comes from those who think they can say words like 'structural integrity,' 'bracing angle,' etc and it will just happen. As much as people use these terms, I hear no solutions to 'how' they can be achieved even in general terms.

Lastly, I suggest for all those who are quite satisfied with their own methodology and uninterested in others thoughts, to keep doing what they are doing and ignor the 'magic,' and let those who are interested have their say. After all, I and those who understand the material are at least committed to the disseminating of 'real' information over 'wiscracks' and 'me too's.' It doesn't take much intellect or skill to do either of those.

 

[Kenpodoc]

Doc,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I keep looking for the magic but it seems to be mostly just hard work. Sometimes, however, when everything clicks, it feels a little like magic. My instructor has done a good job of teaching me some of the magic and when Mr. Wedlake comes, I always find he has remarkable suggestions that make things easier and more effective.


Jeff