Parker or Lee

[TigerFist]

After about 2 years of Wing Chun training, Bruce came to this country to enroll in college at the age of 19 and became his own instructor. Although a quick study and a gifted athlete, Lee was not very knowledgeable in the arts.

By this time Parker had been in the military, finished college, opened 2 schools, was married with three kids, wrote and published 2 martial arts books, and had many students and was continuing to study with significant Chinese Masters of the day.

I always get a kick out of reading bull crap like this posted in forums. Bruce did not just study Wing Chun for 2 years and become his own teacher. Bruce actually began studying martial arts as child, first learning Hung Gar and Tai Chi and then learned from other styles, eventually studying Wing Chun for 5 years (not 2... I know it's hard for you but next time try to get your facts straight).

As for who came first, who really cares as both Ed Parker and Bruce Lee made a huge impact on martial arts, although Bruce had more of an impact due to his worldwide exposure. Bruce would visit Parker at his Pasadena school (you can Chuck Sullivan about this if you'd like) and give demonstrations of his style. If you ask was better at Kenpo, of course the answer is Parker. But who was the better overall martial artist? Without question, it was Bruce. That is one reason why several of Parker's black belts at the time. Jerry Poteet and Dan Inosanto (both of him with I've studied for 9 years) being among the more well known.

Just some facts for those who think Kenpo is the "be all, end all" of martial arts.

 

[Doc]

I always get a kick out of reading bull crap like this posted in forums. Bruce did not just study Wing Chun for 2 years and become his own teacher. Bruce actually began studying martial arts as child, first learning Hung Gar and Tai Chi and then learned from other styles, eventually studying Wing Chun for 5 years (not 2... I know it's hard for you but next time try to get your facts straight).

Clearly you don't know me well enough to suggest "its hard for you [me] to get my facts straight." so let me suggest you drop that. I never said Bruce didn't study other arts, and I stand by my Wing Chun comments based on what he said himself. As long as you're dropping names, I believe my long time Pentkak colleague Guru Cliff Stewart will echo my comments. (Feel free to ask Danny about him before you really mess up)

As for who came first, who really cares as both Ed Parker and Bruce Lee made a huge impact on martial arts, although Bruce had more of an impact due to his worldwide exposure. Bruce would visit Parker at his Pasadena school (you can Chuck Sullivan about this if you'd like) and give demonstrations of his style.

This may come as a shock to you, but I really don't have to consult Chuck. Perhaps you should "check with Chuck" before you make assumptions.

If you ask was better at Kenpo, of course the answer is Parker. But who was the better overall martial artist? Without question, it was Bruce.

If I read your cryptic statements and attempt to fill in the spaces, clearly there is a question, however you are entitled to your opinion. My assessment of Bruce as an overall martial artist was mirrored at the time by Wally Jay as well who called him a "nice kid .." Bruce eventually became a better martial artist as result of meeting Ed Parker who introduced him to others that taught him as well as his own black belt Inosanto. With guys like Sea Oh Choi, and Gene LeBell, etc teaching him, he had to get better. And before you have a problem with that as well, I witnessed these events. Not heresay but "facts."

That is one reason why several of Parker's black belts at the time. Jerry Poteet and Dan Inosanto (both of him with I've studied for 9 years) being among the more well known.

In your rush to get "your facts" out you left out a few words. I presume you are alluding to these black belts leaving Parker to work out with Bruce. As a matter of fact, Danny taught Bruce more than the other way around, and that's not much of a secret. Danny came to Parker having already studied multiple arts and continued and moved on again with Bruce. So What? he liked what Bruce was doing and already had his black from Parker. Why not? He wasn't the only one that left to train with someone else. Rick Flores and Rich Montgomery left to study with Jimmy Woo. That doesn't make either teacher better or worse than Parker. it was people making a decision at a particular point in their lives what they wanted to do, AFTER they already had their black belts. Nothing new there. I'm shocked after a whole 9 years of studying, you haven't noticed a bunch of guys not there when you started as well.

Just some facts for those who think Kenpo is the "be all, end all" of martial arts.

It would seemed you registered just to make your comments known, and a reminder that those are YOUR quotes, not mine. I never said that about Kenpo or any other art, because they are all flawed - even brands of JKD. Now that you have arrogantly educated and chastised us all to what you think the facts are, and reminded us of what Kenpo is not, I'd like to know whom you received your Kenpo black belt from and when - as long as you are dropping "fact bombs" on a forum you apparently have never contributed to in the past. Oh, and another thing, which one did you study with, Parker or Lee, and how well did you know them?

I'm pleased you have got a kick out of the "bull crap." Feel free to get your kicks somewhere else if the interaction here is not up to your standards. We have this thing here at MartialTalk that is really encouraged called "civility." You might try it. You never know, you might like it - once you get past your own 9 years of arrogant "bull crap."

 

[Rob Broad]

Bravo Doc!!!

 

[rmcrobertson]

Just as a bit of support the last two posters don't need, I can pretty much tell you that I love it when students address famous dead people they've never met by their first names---students do it in English all the time ("Emily made her poetry from walking around Amherst"), and I guess they do it in martial arts as well ("Bruce and I went to the White Castle, and talked about why nobody else is as good a martial artist as us"), and it's kind sweet, and kinda absurd.

Mr. Lee was tremendously important to the martial arts in America and around the world, as a theoretican, a demonstrator and an actor: in a sense, he got the arts off their asses. Mr. Parker had a profound significance for martial arts, as a translator of the Asian arts, the formulator of a remarkable system, and a teacher of extraordinary martial artists--and the more I study kenpo, the more impressed I am by his intellectual achievements.

I don't understand why that isn't good enough.

 

[kenposikh]

Thanks Doc one of these days Im gonna have live on the edge get on the fwy and drive out to LA and have a sit down with ya...Im to old for anything else except a cup of coffee or a soda :>)

Hey I don't believe that, Spend some time with Doc and he'll show you a few things that'll make you think you've only just started out in this world.

I have just started learning SL4 and the only words I seem to here are fix ya feet, stances you're foots in the hole etc etc I wonder where Mr Kevin Mills got those phrases eh Doc

 

[Jagdish]

Mr. Parker had a profound significance for martial arts, as a translator of the Asian arts, the formulator of a remarkable system, and a teacher of extraordinary martial artists--and the more I study kenpo, the more impressed I am by his intellectual achievements.

I don't understand why that isn't good enough.

Sir:

It's impressive.

Yours,

Jagdish

 

[Jagdish]

I always get a kick out of reading bull crap like this posted in forums. Bruce did not just study Wing Chun for 2 years and become his own teacher. Bruce actually began studying martial arts as child, first learning Hung Gar and Tai Chi and then learned from other styles, eventually studying Wing Chun for 5 years (not 2... I know it's hard for you but next time try to get your facts straight).

As for who came first, who really cares as both Ed Parker and Bruce Lee made a huge impact on martial arts, although Bruce had more of an impact due to his worldwide exposure. Bruce would visit Parker at his Pasadena school (you can Chuck Sullivan about this if you'd like) and give demonstrations of his style. If you ask was better at Kenpo, of course the answer is Parker. But who was the better overall martial artist? Without question, it was Bruce. That is one reason why several of Parker's black belts at the time. Jerry Poteet and Dan Inosanto (both of him with I've studied for 9 years) being among the more well known.

Just some facts for those who think Kenpo is the "be all, end all" of martial arts.

TigerFist:

If Bruce studied only 2 years W.C. then it's really impressive.Therefore Doc hasn't state something bad but the contrary.

The only thing is that it doensn't matter you agree or not but when you refer to somebody don't leave your manners at home.

It's shocking how interesting discussion turn into something personal.

Yours,

Jagdish

 

[SwedishChef]

Regarding Bruce Lee's training in Wing Chun: I was recently asking a wing chun instructor via email about the strength of a style developed by someone in the Bruce Lee lineage and about the style's wing chun content since Lee never completed the system. This is what he had to say...

WingTsun (or "wing chun" in the generic sense) is not a martial art of accumulation, but rather of principle. Bruce understood the core (aggressive defense, closing the gap, constant forward pressure) which is much better than all the phonies selling books and videos out there who "know the whole system" but couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. If someone understands the core of wing chun, then they don't need much more to know how to fight for real, provided you train HARD.

 

[The Kai]

Regarding Bruce Lee's training in Wing Chun: I was recently asking a wing chun instructor via email about the strength of a style developed by someone in the Bruce Lee lineage and about the style's wing chun content since Lee never completed the system. This is what he had to say...

WingTsun (or "wing chun" in the generic sense) is not a martial art of accumulation, but rather of principle. Bruce understood the core (aggressive defense, closing the gap, constant forward pressure) which is much better than all the phonies selling books and videos out there who "know the whole system" but couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. If someone understands the core of wing chun, then they don't need much more to know how to fight for real, provided you train HARD.

Sure, probably repeated by every student who could'nt stick around long enough to learn the whole of the system. Who decided that Bruce learned the core of the system or was it rather a artitary decision? Given that at one time I though my Father was rather dogmatic and spent to much time on useless stuff- years later I realized how youthfull and arrogent I was

 

[Gin-Gin]

After about 2 years of Wing Chun training, Bruce came to this country to enroll in college at the age of 19 and became his own instructor. Although a quick study and a gifted athlete, Lee was not very knowledgeable in the arts.

By this time Parker had been in the military, finished college, opened 2 schools, was married with three kids, wrote and published 2 martial arts books, and had many students and was continuing to study with significant Chinese Masters of the day.

 

[Kenpodoc]

I always get a kick out of reading bull crap like this posted in forums. Bruce did not just study Wing Chun for 2 years and become his own teacher. Bruce actually began studying martial arts as child, first learning Hung Gar and Tai Chi and then learned from other styles, eventually studying Wing Chun for 5 years (not 2... I know it's hard for you but next time try to get your facts straight).

As for who came first, who really cares as both Ed Parker and Bruce Lee made a huge impact on martial arts, although Bruce had more of an impact due to his worldwide exposure. Bruce would visit Parker at his Pasadena school (you can Chuck Sullivan about this if you'd like) and give demonstrations of his style. If you ask was better at Kenpo, of course the answer is Parker. But who was the better overall martial artist? Without question, it was Bruce. That is one reason why several of Parker's black belts at the time. Jerry Poteet and Dan Inosanto (both of him with I've studied for 9 years) being among the more well known.

Just some facts for those who think Kenpo is the "be all, end all" of martial arts.

I assume that you realize that unlike most of the rest of us Doc was present when much of this occurred. He made his decision and chose Mr. Parker. Some others chose to go with Bruce Lee. You can check with Mr. Sullivan if you wish but it is my impression that he also could have gone with Bruce Lee and he also chose Mr. Parker.

I've only seen Mr. Parker and Bruce Lee on Video. They both move well and both are light years in front of me. Personally I feel Mr. Parker moved better and was more impressive.

I'm curious, you state you've studied with Jerry Poteet and Dan Inosanto for 9 years and yet you still list Kenpo first among your arts on your profile.

Jeff

 

[Jagdish]

I don't like to enter too deep in some topics but i find a part of this interview interesting:
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Steve Golden

HOW DID YOU FlRST BECOME INVOLVED IN THE MARTIAL ARTS?
Steve Golden: I think I was twelve when I really got interested. I used to read Popular Science and Popular Mechanics and they always had those "Defend y ourself , , , " type ads, I sent for everything they offered, Kind of funny now that I think back on it because I didn't have anyone that I wanted to defend myselffrom, But I was intensely interested and wanted to take lessons. The only school I could find was a Judo club and it was about thirty miles from my home. Being twelve. I didn't drive so I couldn't get to any classes. It wasn 't until1959 that Ed Parker did a demonstration at my high school. I was more than a little impressed. And I
had a driver's license.

DESCRIBE YOUR TRAlNING WITH ED PARKER?

SG: It was great. I signed up for a three month course. Classes were every Tuesday and Thursday from 7:00pm to 8:0Opm. By now you 've probably figured out that I continued after the three months. I practiced constantly and, after four months, I was invited into the intermediate class. That was from 8:00pm to 9:00pm. At 9:00pm everyone had to leave and the doors and shades were closed. That's when the advanced class worked out. No one was allowed to watch. Talk about inducement to practice.
Well, I did make it into the advanced class and used to be on the demonstration team. That was really fun. Ed would take us to schools, gyms, hotels and anywhere else that people were interested in martial arts. When we did a demo, we went hard.l'm still surprised that we didn't kill each other. Oh sure, someone would get their face smashed into the concrete or there would be a fractured rib now and then, but nothing really serious,

HOW DID YOU FIRST MEET BRUCE LEE?
SG: I think it was in 1964 .Bruce used to stop by Ed' s school in Pasadena to talk to Ed. I think it was about the Hollywood scene, but i wasn't interested in that so I never asked. But I was interested in Bruce. I don 't think that he ever got out without us questioning him. He always took the time to show us things and play around.

WHAT IMMEDIATE DIFFERENCE DID YOU NOTICE BETWEEN JKD AND KENPO?
SG: This might surprise you, but at that time I didn 't see much difference. The punches were a vertical fist and the side kicks used the flat ofthe foot and heal instead ofthe "knife edge." But that's small stuff. You should understand that we all relate and compare new things to what we already know. I knew hundreds of combat techniques from Kenpo. So, for example, when Bruce taught us trapping drills, I considered them new techniques. Sure, they were different techniques from the Kenpo Techniques I learned but it
wasn 't like it was really that revolutionary .No, it took years before I realized what Bruce was trying to teach me. Looking back on those days, I think of those days as the time that Bruce turned on the lights but I didn 't know how to open my eyes.

WOULD YOU SAY THA T ED P ARKER HAD A DIFFERENT INTERPRETA TION OF FIGHTING THAN BRUCE LEE?
SG: Of course he did. In Ed' s world of combat, your actions had a predetermined set of actions. In Bruce' s world, nothing was predetermined. ( except, of course, that he was going to win). If you look at Kenpo using JKD theory , Kenpo doesn 't look so good because it makes too many assumptions. But looking at Kenpo that way does not give you a true representation of what it was really like. I keep hearing people say that JKD is Bruce Lee. But I don 't hear people say that Kenpo is Ed Parker. But it ' s just as true. You
can look at Kenpo and tear it apart through theory but in reality Ed Parker made it work. And with Ed ' s personal teaching, I made it work too, until I met Bruce.

DID PARKER HARBOR ANY ILL FEELINGS TOW ARDS LEE SINCE SEVERAL OF HIS STUDENTS ENROLLED IN HIS LOS ANGELES CHINA TOWN SCHOOL ?
SG: I'm pretty sure that he wasn 't thrilled with the situation, but it wasn 't like you think. It might sound like Bruce came along, showed me something new and I deserted Ed, That's not what happened. I had been with Ed for over seven years. Ed was almost always at the school teaching me and the other advanced students. But, for the last year before I left, Ed was spending more and more time away from the Pasadena school. He was involved in his other schools and in dealing with the Hollywood crowd. So, at least for that period of time, he was not teaching me. So who left who ?


Ed and I remained friends. I had moved to Eugene, Oregon. He used to come there to do seminars for local Kenpo schools and I'd bring my students. He was so friendly to me and my students that the Kenpo people in town got real cool toward me after that. Ed was also a bodyguard to Elvis and he would sometimes be in Eugene when Elvis was performing there. During the day Ed would come to my home. He came over for Thanksgiving dinner one time and the next day he put on a private class for my students. Ed was really a great guy .And. I might add. a superb martial artist and a genius in developing his system.

IF YOU HAD TO PICK BETWEEN THE TWO, WHICH GENIUS WOULD YOU SAY YOU LEARNED THE MOST FROM, BRUCE LEE OR ED PARKER AND WHY?
SG: I’m not sure what that question means. The problem is that I don’t know how to value what I learned from each of them. Since I’ve been working on what I learned from Bruce Lee for over thirty years, you might think that his teachings would be the most valuable. However, things are not always that simple. One of the reasons Bruce liked Ed Parker’s people is because of the way we learned to move and learned to think. That training has stayed with me and influenced all of my understanding of Bruce’s teaching. So, maybe I would not have the understanding and abilities that I now have without the base from Ed Parker. It might also surprise you to find out that the Kenpo training keeps showing itself in a very positive manner in fits in well with all the other training. Of course, an observer might not recognize it as Kenpo. Then again, the observer might not recognize what I’m doing as anything related to Bruce Lee’s teaching either.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[eyebeams]

The thing is, though, that we know quite a bit about what Lee knew, and "trained for 2 years in one art" isn't it, even before he hit the mainland.

This isn't all common knowledge, but it is known. To wit:

1) Bruce Lee trained in Wing Chun long enough to learn Bill Jee: the last empty hand form in the Yip Man lineage and not something he shared with casual students. Even though this is something even Wing Chun folks deny, we know this because:

* Bil Jee techniques were considered "closed door" in Lee's school. Dan Inosanto has said this.

* Wong Jack Man's testimony of their fight indicated that Lee was familiar with Bil Jee, as he allegedly used it extensively.

This belies any statement about him training in Wing Chun for only 2 years.

2) Lee demonstrated knowledge of both Hung Gar (there are films of him doing Hung Gar sets; I've seen one from a CBC program.) and the Tam Toi routine, In fact, given his background, it would be almost impossible for him *not* to learn Tam Toi, since it's the single most common foundation set in kung fu thanks to being adopted by Jingwu and some schools' Phys Ed programs. Lee's father was a Tai Chi stylist and shared it with him.

Therefore, it's somewhat disingenuous to suggest that Bruce Lee's ability came solely through contacts he made via Ed Parker, though I understand it certainly must be tempting to imply this on a kenpo board.

Of course, if we want to compare their achievements (without, apparently, comparing their ages) we can see that Lee was a working actor with multiple credits and a dance champion by his teens.

Who was the better martial artist? I have no idea, and I'll venture that since the values attached to skill vary from person to person, this is a largely meaningless thing to judge one way or another.

 

[Kenpodoc]

I may have missed it but I don't think anyone suggested that

Bruce Lee's ability came solely through contacts he made via Ed Parker.

It might be suggested that Bruce Lee's fame came about because of the contacts he made via Ed Parker. But he was an industrious, charismatically talented young man and might have found his way into show business even without Ed Parker.

Jeff

 

[Doc]

The thing is, though, that we know quite a bit about what Lee knew, and "trained for 2 years in one art" isn't it, even before he hit the mainland.

This isn't all common knowledge, but it is known. To wit:

1) Bruce Lee trained in Wing Chun long enough to learn Bill Jee: the last empty hand form in the Yip Man lineage and not something he shared with casual students. Even though this is something even Wing Chun folks deny, we know this because:

* Bil Jee techniques were considered "closed door" in Lee's school. Dan Inosanto has said this.

* Wong Jack Man's testimony of their fight indicated that Lee was familiar with Bil Jee, as he allegedly used it extensively.

This belies any statement about him training in Wing Chun for only 2 years.

2) Lee demonstrated knowledge of both Hung Gar (there are films of him doing Hung Gar sets; I've seen one from a CBC program.) and the Tam Toi routine, In fact, given his background, it would be almost impossible for him *not* to learn Tam Toi, since it's the single most common foundation set in kung fu thanks to being adopted by Jingwu and some schools' Phys Ed programs. Lee's father was a Tai Chi stylist and shared it with him.

Therefore, it's somewhat disingenuous to suggest that Bruce Lee's ability came solely through contacts he made via Ed Parker, though I understand it certainly must be tempting to imply this on a kenpo board.

Of course, if we want to compare their achievements (without, apparently, comparing their ages) we can see that Lee was a working actor with multiple credits and a dance champion by his teens.

Who was the better martial artist? I have no idea, and I'll venture that since the values attached to skill vary from person to person, this is a largely meaningless thing to judge one way or another.

There would seem to be some misinterpretations and a complete lack of reading comp skills surrounding my original statement. Let me say it again;

I never suggested the totality of Bruce Lee's training was limited to ONLY 2 years of Wing Chun, nor does his knowledge of Wing Chun reflect that of a 2 years student. He came to Wing Chun as an experienced martial artist.

My point here was that Bruce Lee was on his own at the age of 19 as the head of and running his own school, in comparison to where Ed Parker was and his accomplishments at that time.

I never said Bruce Lee's ability came solely through contact with Ed Parker. Clearly he came to Wing Chun with some skills, and left with additional knowledge sufficient enough to get him not only noticed but ostracized by the Chinese Martial Arts Community.

However it was through Ed Parker that his Hollywood career began, and it was Ed Parker that introduced Bruce to people that he drew considerable knowledge from, that wasn't there before and had a significant impact on Bruce. Relatively speaking, at the time Bruce was, as Wally Jay said, "A nice kid but he don't know that much." In comparison to what Parker had did, done, and doing as a man and a martial artist at the time they met, Bruce's knowledge was not significant among the martial art elite.

Consider Parker was hanging with Ark Wong, "Tiny" Lefiti, Jimmy Woo, Lau Bun, James Woo, Sea Oh Choi, Gene LeBell, Wally Jay, Tsutomu Oshima, Hidetaka Nishiyama, Tak Kubota, and the list goes on here in southern California where all respected Parker. Parker was even welcome into the underground Chinese Martial Arts Culture where Bruce Lee wasn't. Drop the 19 year old kid into this group and the comments put in context make sense.

What Bruce brought to the table was limited knowledge at his young age, but a tremendous physical gift and talent that allowed him to absorb information and skill at a tremendous rate. That is why the elite people Parker introduced Bruce to had such an incredible impact on him, and also why they liked him. His talent was overwhelming. So much so that many of those relationships, like Gene LeBell, became long term.

 

[eyebeams]

There would seem to be some misinterpretations and a complete lack of reading comp skills surrounding my original statement. Let me say it again;

I never suggested the totality of Bruce Lee's training was limited to ONLY 2 years of Wing Chun, nor does his knowledge of Wing Chun reflect that of a 2 years student. He came to Wing Chun as an experienced martial artist.

The thing is, he wasn't just a student for 2 years. Aside from the fact that it would be very odd for Yip Man to teach Bil Jee in such a short period, the fact that he was an experienced practitioner as far back as '58 is documented:

http://www.wingchun.com/ROLF.htm

In any event, I mostly see where you're coming from -- but leaving aside the year, where was Parker at age 19?

Yes, it's an unfair comparison, since there wasn't a martial arts community ready to pay attention to Parker in the way they paid attention to Lee. But the converse is true; it is hardly appropriate to compare the achievements of two men with a 9 year age difference.

I did, in fact, comprehend what you were saying (and there's certainly no need to be snippy. I just disagree with both your factual account of Lee's personal history and don't believe it's really appropriate to compare the two.

I do believe that Parker's legacy is the more substantial of the two. My own teacher directed me to his books as the only relevant printed material on a number of subjects (particularly coiling motions and 8 directional striking). I'm hardly trying to denigrate Ed Parker.

 

[Doc]

My question of the elders on this forum that may have been around back then is what came first "the Parker or the Lee"?

I guess reading comp is still out to lunch. This was the original question, and I thought I answered it.

 

[Ceicei]

The question was not which of the two is better, but rather, which came first. Being first on the scene does not necessarily make one better or worse than the other. They both had their own skills and their own experiences and contributed in their own way. They, however, contributed because of others (before/with them) and not solely upon their own merits.

- Ceicei

 

[eyebeams]

I guess reading comp is still out to lunch.

Do a couple of extra years of Wing Chun especially warrant this remark?

 

[Doc]

Do a couple of extra years of Wing Chun especially warrant this remark?

Nope!

Therefore, it's somewhat disingenuous to suggest that Bruce Lee's ability came solely through contacts he made via Ed Parker, though I understand it certainly must be tempting to imply this on a kenpo board.

How about that?

Especially considering I made no such suggestion. Perhaps you were the disingenuous one? Or as I said about "reading comp"... I have no problem with anyone coming to "a kenpo board," but remember you're a guest in our house, and although you have a right to disagree, don't put words in our mouth. I consider the issue closed and no longer worthy of discussion. A search of the site will yield additional remarks by me in the past on the subject, if you're interested.