Parents convicted of murder for using faith-healing on unconscious 11 year old daughter.

[jarrod]

Nice thought, but the unborn are even more vulnerable then the ones, in this case. Bill is right, pray, while seeking medical help. In the unborn, this, in many cases, is purely selfish. But, I digress.

i disagree, but it's a topic for another thread. fetuses are not aware of their predicament.

jf

 

[Ken Morgan]

At what age are children legally adult and allowed to make their own decisions?


In some countries such as France it's illegal not to aid someone who needs help so watching a 32 year old die without medical aid is an offence just as it would be watching a child die. The law is very clear and doesn't make allowances for religious beliefs. Someone needs help you have to get it full stop.

Canadian case,

"A 14-year-old Jehovah Witness in Manitoba refused lifesaving medical treatment. Accordingly to the law in that province someone under 16 cannot decide to reject medical care.
The provincial Supreme Court invoked child protection laws, and ordered treatment and saved the child’s life. The case was appealed to the nation’s highest court.
Instead of simply upholding the Manitoba law, the majority of justices adopted a subjective test. They said in fact that the 16- year age barrier was too strict and that the maturity of the individual needs to be assessed and considered. The Supreme Court in realty is really recommending that at future trials of this type, a judge in a law of court must inquire into not only the youngster’s intellectual and moral maturity, but also determine to what extent that maturity is free of or governed by the beliefs and practices of the parents.
At first glance this decision is an endorsement of individual rights, specifically the rights of children. Seems appropriate in a modern country like, Canada. What will be the unintended consequence? Children under 16, who find themselves in similar situations as the 14-year-old kid in Manitoba, will much more likely to be allowed to refuse treatment and die, all because of an old-fashioned and ill-conceived religious interpretation of a few words in the Bible. Why? For one thing, children’s aid societies are no longer clear what the law is (under 16 is clear) and they will be reluctant to act. If a case does get to court, judges are more likely to twist and stretch and find maturity even if a kid is younger than 14. The individualistic, subjective test will lead to a low standard of making life-and-death decisions. That is wrong. The result – and it should have been foreseeable – is an abdication of society’s duty, through its judicial system, to protect young people."

 

[Tez3]

Canadian case,

"A 14-year-old Jehovah Witness in Manitoba refused lifesaving medical treatment. Accordingly to the law in that province someone under 16 cannot decide to reject medical care.
The provincial Supreme Court invoked child protection laws, and ordered treatment and saved the child’s life. The case was appealed to the nation’s highest court.
Instead of simply upholding the Manitoba law, the majority of justices adopted a subjective test. They said in fact that the 16- year age barrier was too strict and that the maturity of the individual needs to be assessed and considered. The Supreme Court in realty is really recommending that at future trials of this type, a judge in a law of court must inquire into not only the youngster’s intellectual and moral maturity, but also determine to what extent that maturity is free of or governed by the beliefs and practices of the parents.
At first glance this decision is an endorsement of individual rights, specifically the rights of children. Seems appropriate in a modern country like, Canada. What will be the unintended consequence? Children under 16, who find themselves in similar situations as the 14-year-old kid in Manitoba, will much more likely to be allowed to refuse treatment and die, all because of an old-fashioned and ill-conceived religious interpretation of a few words in the Bible. Why? For one thing, children’s aid societies are no longer clear what the law is (under 16 is clear) and they will be reluctant to act. If a case does get to court, judges are more likely to twist and stretch and find maturity even if a kid is younger than 14. The individualistic, subjective test will lead to a low standard of making life-and-death decisions. That is wrong. The result – and it should have been foreseeable – is an abdication of society’s duty, through its judicial system, to protect young people."

In societies such as ours it's always going to be hard balancing the rights of individuals with the needs of what we feel are people who due societies protection. I don't even think it's a political issue, I think everyone is doing what they think is best but it's ending up a mess. I don't know the answers as you will never get everyone to agree.

 

[arnisador]

It is interesting that children should be able to make medical decisions without the input of their parents, but we will hold parents responsible for not getting them "appropriate" medical attention.

Children can get lunch for themselves, but their parents are still obligated to feed them.

My daughter got her ear pierced the other day (an "industrial piercing"). The shop demanded that her mother bring our daughter's birth certificate or the like as ID. Kids can't decide to get pierced or tattooed on their own, legally, without parental/guardian consent. They also must have that for most elective medical procedures but not for needed medical care--the reason being that it's needed medical care, provided by a licensed physician.

Nice thought, but the unborn are even more vulnerable then the ones, in this case.

She was unconscious...that's pretty vulnerable.

I think in some U.S. states there are laws about failing to summon help if it's not dangerous to you to do so (you can't be "indifferent" to human suffering)...essentially what got the Seinfeld crew.

 

[Ken Morgan]

In societies such as ours it's always going to be hard balancing the rights of individuals with the needs of what we feel are people who due societies protection. I don't even think it's a political issue, I think everyone is doing what they think is best but it's ending up a mess. I don't know the answers as you will never get everyone to agree.

Agreed.

This is the 21st Century. Most of us on this forum live in modern, western societies, with all the benefits that go with it.

Of all the obligations we have taken on, looking out for others is the one that separates us from most of the animals. We look after children, the elderly, those who are emotional wreaks, those who are intoxicated, those who we know to be “not all there”, we do this because it is in our nature to do so. We are social primates, living in groups or tribes, and looking out for others is what keeps our groups viable. All for one and one for all.

You would never let your child cross the road without holding your hand, you would never let a drunk female friend be led off by some strange guy in a bar, you wouldn’t let someone with the mental capacity of a cucumber touch something dangerous, (Weapons, car).

As a libertarian I dislike government involvement in our lives, but I understand and agree with why we need government.

The State will routinely step in when it feels the young, the infirm or the elderly can not make an informed decision about their own care. If it hurts your religious beliefs, too ****ing bad.

I find it so very disturbing that many people have no respect for science but find no issue with using items developed by science.

Anti religious rant….

I know the Great Pumpkin is not bringing me presents on Halloween, I know the tooth fairy isn’t going to leave a toonie under my pillow, I know Santa isn’t going to bring me presents on Christmas day, I know a giant friggn rabbit isn’t bringing me chocolate on Easter, I know Mars isn’t helping Allied troops in Afghanistan, why the F@*# would someone think that an imaginary, invisible man in the sky is going to cure his sick daughter???!!

My daughter is sixteen, and the thought of someone treating their own daughter with such negligence makes my blood boil….

 

[Satt]

Since when did using the skills of a doctor equate to having no faith? I don't get it. I am a bible-believing Christian and I just don't remember reading that anywhere. These parents = warped.

 

[Tez3]

Agreed.

This is the 21st Century. Most of us on this forum live in modern, western societies, with all the benefits that go with it.

Of all the obligations we have taken on, looking out for others is the one that separates us from most of the animals. We look after children, the elderly, those who are emotional wreaks, those who are intoxicated, those who we know to be “not all there”, we do this because it is in our nature to do so. We are social primates, living in groups or tribes, and looking out for others is what keeps our groups viable. All for one and one for all.

You would never let your child cross the road without holding your hand, you would never let a drunk female friend be led off by some strange guy in a bar, you wouldn’t let someone with the mental capacity of a cucumber touch something dangerous, (Weapons, car).

As a libertarian I dislike government involvement in our lives, but I understand and agree with why we need government.

The State will routinely step in when it feels the young, the infirm or the elderly can not make an informed decision about their own care. If it hurts your religious beliefs, too ****ing bad.

I find it so very disturbing that many people have no respect for science but find no issue with using items developed by science.

Anti religious rant….

I know the Great Pumpkin is not bringing me presents on Halloween, I know the tooth fairy isn’t going to leave a toonie under my pillow, I know Santa isn’t going to bring me presents on Christmas day, I know a giant friggn rabbit isn’t bringing me chocolate on Easter, I know Mars isn’t helping Allied troops in Afghanistan, why the F@*# would someone think that an imaginary, invisible man in the sky is going to cure his sick daughter???!!

My daughter is sixteen, and the thought of someone treating their own daughter with such negligence makes my blood boil….

I agree with you though I do believe in a G-d but I also believe he gave us the brains, skills and intelligence to do the healing. If I were Him I think I'd despair at people who take the easy way out and want everything done for them and also blame G-d for poverty, starvation etc. For crying out loud it's up to us to do something about these problems. the onus is very much on us to do the helping and I believe it's G-ds will it's that way after all if He's the Father, doesn't every father want their children to be confident, independant adults? If we were supposed to sit there and pray every time we want something done G-d would have created us thick!

 

[celtic_crippler]

If we were supposed to sit there and pray every time we want something done G-d would have created us thick!

We'd still be sitting in a cave banging on rocks as we wait to have them answered.... man... I wish I had air conditioning in this cave...LOL

 

[Tez3]

We'd still be sitting in a cave banging on rocks as we wait to have them answered.... man... I wish I had air conditioning in this cave...LOL

Absolutely. I think it's a crime against G-d if you like not to use your brains and not to do things for yourself. I always think it's arrogant to expect G-d to do things for you tbh. It's as if you are saying well I'm so bloody important you have to do this and this when I pray for it. In my religion we know that saying prayers is only beneficial for us, doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to G-d, just makes us feel better.

 

[CanuckMA]

I agree with you though I do believe in a G-d but I also believe he gave us the brains, skills and intelligence to do the healing. If I were Him I think I'd despair at people who take the easy way out and want everything done for them and also blame G-d for poverty, starvation etc. For crying out loud it's up to us to do something about these problems. the onus is very much on us to do the helping and I believe it's G-ds will it's that way after all if He's the Father, doesn't every father want their children to be confident, independant adults? If we were supposed to sit there and pray every time we want something done G-d would have created us thick!

I know quite a number of very Orthodox Jews who, after Rabbinic ordination, went in to medical school and are practicing physicians. Religious beliefs does not preclude science.

 

[thardey]

I agree with you though I do believe in a G-d but I also believe he gave us the brains, skills and intelligence to do the healing. If I were Him I think I'd despair at people who take the easy way out and want everything done for them and also blame G-d for poverty, starvation etc. For crying out loud it's up to us to do something about these problems. the onus is very much on us to do the helping and I believe it's G-ds will it's that way after all if He's the Father, doesn't every father want their children to be confident, independant adults? If we were supposed to sit there and pray every time we want something done G-d would have created us thick!

Absolutely! It's the abdication of responsibility and blaming everything that happens on "Fate" or God, or the Spaghetti monster or whatever. Anything but actually have to work for a living.

It also gives those born into prosperous situations the ability to develop a self-righteous feeling about those less fortunate. In their mind, their life is easy because God likes them, and they must be righteous people, but those less fortunate are not as well liked by God, so they must suffer. It's all in a selfish way to view life, using whatever is handy as an excuse not to better yourself.

Often, people with that mindset are easily sucked into following charismatic spiritual leaders who manipulate their flock for their own gain. They are trained not to take responsibility for themselves, but to turn over their lives/money/time etc. to their leader, and to never question him. By extension, whatever happens to someone, whether an unwanted pregnancy, a sickness, poverty, etc. must be the will of "God" and so they are not allowed to interfere by using scientific methods to "fight" against what they believe to be "God's will."

Thus, they can't do anything to fix a situation, other than sit there and pray that God changes his mind.

It's messed up, but it has more to do with the nature and excuses of selfish, lazy sheeple, who use the idea of religion to manipulate their own and other's emotions to duck personal responsibility, than the nature of real religion, itself.

 

[Omar B]

Everything good happens it's from god, everything bad happens it's a failure in your faith. You never own your victories but you do own your defeats. "God helps those who helps themselves" serves to strip pride from human excellence and achievement and hands it over to nothing.

 

[Satt]

"God helps those who helps themselves"

Where is that quote from...because it's not in the bible if that is what is implied.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Where is that quote from...because it's not in the bible if that is what is implied.

"God helps those who help themselves."

That quote is attributed to Sidney Algernon (1622-1683) in his "Discourses on Government." The similar quote, "God helps them that help themselves," is attributed to Benjamin Franklin in Poor Richard's Almanac of 1757.

Earlier versions include:
"Help thyself, heaven will help thee." -LaFontaine, Book VI, fable 18
"Heaven ne'er helps the men who will not act." -Sophocles
"Help thyself and God will help thee." -George Herbert (1593-1633)

Regardless of the source, I think the meaning is pretty clear. If you sit around waiting for some supernatural source to help you out you're likely in for a long and unfruitful wait.

 

[Satt]

Very true. I understand it is also a possible quote from Aesop's Fables. I just don't like when people try to quote the bible and are way off. If this is the case though, it makes perfect sense. I mean't no ill.

 

[Tez3]

"God helps those who help themselves."

That quote is attributed to Sidney Algernon (1622-1683) in his "Discourses on Government." The similar quote, "God helps them that help themselves," is attributed to Benjamin Franklin in Poor Richard's Almanac of 1757.

Earlier versions include:
"Help thyself, heaven will help thee." -LaFontaine, Book VI, fable 18
"Heaven ne'er helps the men who will not act." -Sophocles
"Help thyself and God will help thee." -George Herbert (1593-1633)

Regardless of the source, I think the meaning is pretty clear. If you sit around waiting for some supernatural source to help you out you're likely in for a long and unfruitful wait.

Dammit you got in before me lol!

Well if you were a god who'd given his people everything they needed to make their way in the world you'd be pretty miffed to have them whinging at you everytime they wanted something!

 

[Satt]

Well if you were a god who'd given his people everything they needed to make their way in the world you'd be pretty miffed to have them whinging at you everytime they wanted something!

Amen to the whinging part.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Dammit you got in before me lol!

Well if you were a god who'd given his people everything they needed to make their way in the world you'd be pretty miffed to have them whinging at you everytime they wanted something!

...assuming "god" is flawed by human characteristics and failings. lol

 

[Tez3]

...assuming "god" is flawed by human characteristics and failings. lol

Oh G-d's an Englishman, didn't you know lol?

 

[girlbug2]

"Trust God but tie your camel first"--an Arab proverb.

In other words, use the common sense He gave you.

A joke:

After Hurricane Katrina, a man was stranded on the roof of his house because the whole town was flooded. He hadn't seen another living soul for days. He was a faithful believer in God and knew that He could work miracles. He prayed for God to send him a miracle rescue.

Hours later a few people came rowing by in a small boat. "Get in! We have room".

"No," he replied, "I'm waiting on God's divine rescue". They rowed on by.

Another day went by and he noticed a guy on a raft floating his way."Climb aboard friend!" the stranger called out. The man refused politely. The rafter pushed off and away.

Several hours later, a helicopter hovered down over the man's house and let down a rope ladder. "Climb up!" somebody shouted from the helicopter. The man said, "No, I prayed to God and if I have faith I'm sure he'll deliver. Don't worry about me, God will take care of me." The pilot had no choice but to leave and find somebody else to rescue.

The next morning, the man was so weakened from lack of food and exposure that he died on the roof of his house. When his soul was admitted into Heaven, the man found God and asked Him, "I prayed for Your help; why didn't You deliver me?"

God replied, "I sent you a boat, a raft and even a helicopter! What were you waiting for, the Ark?"