Parental Dilemma: Spy or Not To Spy on Your Kid(s)

[MA-Caver]

Everyone has their own ideas and concepts of how to successfully raise children where they are productive use to our respective societies, no matter where. At least in those still "free thinking" countries.
Nobody knows the exact formula to raising a child. As evident by this statement from Masters and Johnson's "There is no guarantee that raising a child in a good environment that a child will turn out good, there is also no guarantee that a child raised in a bad environment will turn out bad. In fact, when it comes to children, there's no guarantee of anything. Good Luck!"


:asian: lets keep the tone respectful eh? Disagreeing is allowed.

 

[Steve]

:asian: lets keep the tone respectful eh? Disagreeing is allowed.

Was this last bit directed at me or at someone else?

 

[granfire]

Was this last bit directed at me or at someone else?

I STRONGLY disagree with you!

No, what?

I think there was in one post something left out that made it seem personal...(since I don't mod I did not pay much attention)

 

[Steve]

But you're also saying that you do believe in privacy, because well they get what they earn.

and yeah i agree with the building bombs in the garage and hey guys do you want a drink and what do you have there.

Like criminals. Sometimes criminals have tracking devices and they have to let people know where they move to (sex predators) Like you. You seem to have a good outlook on it. In society people are watched like you said and if they are criminals their privacy is taken away.

I said freedom. Kids don't have any right to privacy, but they should be given as much freedom as they can handle to do what they find interesting and fulfilling.

 

[seasoned]

When I was a kid I know exactly what I could get away with, and did. Lucky for me I was so scared of my dad "scared straight" is the term I hear around, that I walked a very narrow line. My mom was loving and kind to a fault, and my dad got involved when I needed a butt jacking. Other then that I was accountable for nothing.
I took the pros and cons of how I was raised, sprinkled in what I felt was missing from my formative years and applied it to my kids. There is no road map, just common sense, and a feeling that you want the best for your kids. You will make mistakes in raising them, and they will made mistakes being kids and young adults. Bottom line is get involved, be there for them, make them know that there is accountability and consequences, and give them measured trust. On the other end, I have two great contributors to society, and my hope is that they will add and build from that as they guide their own kids in life.

Proof is in the pudding.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

When I was a kid I know exactly what I could get away with, and did. Lucky for me I was so scared of my dad "scared straight" is the term I hear around, that I walked a very narrow line. My mom was loving and kind to a fault, and my dad got involved when I needed a butt jacking. Other then that I was accountable for nothing.
I took the pros and cons of how I was raised, sprinkled in what I felt was missing from my formative years and applied it to my kids. There is no road map, just common sense, and a feeling that you want the best for your kids. You will make mistakes in raising them, and they will made mistakes being kids and young adults. Bottom line is get involved, be there for them, make them know that there is accountability and consequences, and give them measured trust. On the other end, I have two great contributors to society, and my hope is that they will add and build from that as they guide their own kids in life.

Proof is in the pudding.

Not to be contrary, but it's not proof of anything. Great kids have come from parents that did a lousy job and did everything wrong, as well as those who were hands-on and did everything right. Terrible kids come from great homes as well as terrible ones. I think being the kind of parent you are is fantastic, don't get me wrong.

But none of it obviates the need to snoop and intrude in your child's privacy. Regardless of how good a parent thinks their child is turning out, if they 'respect their privacy' and it turns out the kid is building bombs in the garage, society has a problem, and it's the parent's fault for not knowing about it.

I'm not talking about the philosophy of child-rearing; I agree that all kinds of philosophies work and don't work in all kinds of situations; it seems to depend a lot on the kid, the parents, and even random chance or genetics. I'm talking about the mechanistic physically searching the kid's room, asking questions, and otherwise completely intruding on what others consider their privacy. That's not about the philosophy of child-rearing; that's about physically determining that there is not a problem by searching.

 

[seasoned]

When I was a kid I know exactly what I could get away with, and did. Lucky for me I was so scared of my dad "scared straight" is the term I hear around, that I walked a very narrow line. My mom was loving and kind to a fault, and my dad got involved ONLY when I needed a butt jacking. Other then that I was accountable for nothing.

I was trying to make a comparison here that first of all parents need to be on board as a team in raising kids. Mixed messages leaves loop holes, that will be capitalized on.

I took the pros and cons of how I was raised, sprinkled in what I felt was missing from my formative years and applied it to my kids. There is no road map, just common sense, and a feeling that you want the best for your kids.

Remember I said I was accountable for nothing. Huge factor in making that pudding just right.

You will make mistakes in raising them, and they will made mistakes being kids and young adults. Bottom line is get involved, be there for them, make them know that there is accountability and consequences, and give them measured trust.

There was no wishful thinking on my part, the above are receipts that added to the mix. I would think that the above would answer a lot on proper child rearing.

Not to be contrary, but it's not proof of anything. Great kids have come from parents that did a lousy job and did everything wrong, as well as those who were hands-on and did everything right. Terrible kids come from great homes as well as terrible ones. I think being the kind of parent you are is fantastic, don't get me wrong.

Being a parent is not for the faint of heart. If you're on board, you have to be on board all the way. It takes time, perseverance, follow through, and commitment. Not to be contrary on my part also, but, I will have to think on the above comment. I have seen a lot of parents think they were doing a great job.

But none of it obviates the need to snoop and intrude in your child's privacy. Regardless of how good a parent thinks their child is turning out, if they 'respect their privacy' and it turns out the kid is building bombs in the garage, society has a problem, and it's the parent's fault for not knowing about it.

Agreed, some parents are so busy doing a great job that they can't see the forest through the trees. Kids spending to much time in the garage, in the cellar, or their room for that matter, would raise a red flag in my mind, and there lies the big difference in my book.

I'm not talking about the philosophy of child-rearing; I agree that all kinds of philosophies work and don't work in all kinds of situations; it seems to depend a lot on the kid, the parents, and even random chance or genetics. I'm talking about the mechanistic physically searching the kid's room, asking questions, and otherwise completely intruding on what others consider their privacy. That's not about the philosophy of child-rearing; that's about physically determining that there is not a problem by searching.

In closing I would like to say that we were 100% ready to take what ever stand we needed to take, if it became apparent that what my wife and I were doing, was not working.
The above statement you make, is where I feel that "real parenting" takes place. There is a huge balancing act when achieving the above in such a way as to be intrusive in their life, while at the same time not appearing to be. Once trust is damaged, you have lost a big part of cooperation on their part. Now it becomes a, "do as I say thing", and this is the beginning of the END.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I appreciate your statements, but I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. It's not about the method, it's about physically knowing what your children are doing. I don't care for statements about establishing trust and keeping lines of communication open and being fully immersed or whatever. Look in the freaking garage. Read their journals. Snoop online and read what they post on social networking sites and send and receive via email and online chat. Raise them with whatever method you think is appropriate to produce great kids. But that's got nothing to do with protecting society from your kids when they decide to build a bomb or shoot up a school. You can beat your breast and tear our your hair after they kill a bunch of people, but that doesn't help the dead. Search their crap. Raise them however you like, but search their crap.

Look at it this way; you can talk all day long about the best way to rehabilitate criminals, but at the end of the day, if you don't search their cells for shivs, guess what? Trust issues, rehab versus punishment, whatever; none of it matters when it comes to ONE ISSUE. They may have a shiv in their cell; you have to find out if they do or they don't. Telling other guards that YOUR prisoner would never shiv them because you have open lines of communication doesn't help after they shiv your partners or you. Search for the shiv; rehab them as you wish.

 

[seasoned]

I appreciate your statements, but I don't think you're getting what I'm saying.

This appears to be a two way street, and that's ok.

It's not about the method, it's about physically knowing what your children are doing. I don't care for statements about establishing trust and keeping lines of communication open and being fully immersed or whatever.

As I look through my statements I don't see anywhere, that I'm not on board, with what they are doing. It's obvious that if their spending to much time in the garage or cellar, I'm checking it out. But there is more to being a parent then following them around with a magnifying glass. It's stupid that a parent doesn't know what is happening around their own house, heck I have two dogs,"kid replacements" and if one or both come up missing, I'm wondering what's up, and I'm off to investigate.

Look in the freaking garage.

"Wes wrote in a previous post" .Agreed, some parents are so busy doing a great job that they can't see the forest through the trees. Kids spending to much time in the garage, in the cellar, or their room for that matter, would raise a red flag in my mind, and there lies the big difference in my book.

Read their journals. Snoop online and read what they post on social networking sites and send and receive via email and online chat. Raise them with whatever method you think is appropriate to produce great kids. But that's got nothing to do with protecting society from your kids when they decide to build a bomb or shoot up a school. You can beat your breast and tear our your hair after they kill a bunch of people, but that doesn't help the dead. Search their crap. Raise them however you like, but search their crap.

What you're saying above is called parenting, Bill. But, not being a parent yourself, you must realize that the touchy feely thing is part of the ball of wax of parenting. You can teach them to rebel by smothering them with rules that aren't enforced and regulations that are not obtainable. Fairness in everything is key, and still check out their "crap" yes indeed.

Look at it this way; you can talk all day long about the best way to rehabilitate criminals, but at the end of the day, if you don't search their cells for shivs, guess what? Trust issues, rehab versus punishment, whatever; none of it matters when it comes to ONE ISSUE. They may have a shiv in their cell; you have to find out if they do or they don't. Telling other guards that YOUR prisoner would never shiv them because you have open lines of communication doesn't help after they shiv your partners or you. Search for the shiv; rehab them as you wish.

Two separate issues here, Bill. Kids are not incarcerated, although some parents see fit to treat their kids this way.
I think we are closer then you think on issues of "Spy or Not To Spy on Your Kid(s)" It's just the method incorporated. Who cares how it's done, as long as the end result is, what I said way back when. "Contributors to society".

 

[granfire]

This appears to be a two way street, and that's ok.


As I look through my statements I don't see anywhere, that I'm not on board, with what they are doing. It's obvious that if their spending to much time in the garage or cellar, I'm checking it out. But there is more to being a parent then following them around with a magnifying glass. It's stupid that a parent doesn't know what is happening around their own house, heck I have two dogs,"kid replacements" and if one or both come up missing, I'm wondering what's up, and I'm off to investigate.




"Wes wrote in a previous post" .Agreed, some parents are so busy doing a great job that they can't see the forest through the trees. Kids spending to much time in the garage, in the cellar, or their room for that matter, would raise a red flag in my mind, and there lies the big difference in my book.



What you're saying above is called parenting, Bill. But, not being a parent yourself, you must realize that the touchy feely thing is part of the ball of wax of parenting. You can teach them to rebel by smothering them with rules that aren't enforced and regulations that are not obtainable. Fairness in everything is key, and still check out their "crap" yes indeed.



Two separate issues here, Bill. Kids are not incarcerated, although some parents see fit to treat their kids this way.
I think we are closer then you think on issues of "Spy or Not To Spy on Your Kid(s)" It's just the method incorporated. Who cares how it's done, as long as the end result is, what I said way back when. "Contributors to society".

well, after all, you have 18 years to prepare them for the real world. After that you have to cut them lose and hope you taught them right.
That can't very well happen when you sit on them 24/7. Or without giving them a sense of where the boundaries are between public and private.

 

[seasoned]

well, after all, you have 18 years to prepare them for the real world. After that you have to cut them lose and hope you taught them right.
That can't very well happen when you sit on them 24/7. Or without giving them a sense of where the boundaries are between public and private.

This is where the rubber hits the road. Only comment I can make is the time is much shorter for preparation. You may begin to lose them as soon as their friends start to make more sense then Mom and Dad.

 

[Jenna]

I do not spy on my son.

If I ever found myself feeling justified or suspect enough to spy upon him, I would at least acknowledge that I have failed in some part of my parental duty to him. I have failed to educate, advise or guide him properly and he has gone wayward because of it. Spying on him at that stage will not rectify a situation that I -through my lack of diligent care and gentle direction- have allowed to transpire. I would do better to drop the spying and strive to winch his train back on the track.

I think the need for spying demonstrates yet another situation where a parent has not maintained a reasonable connection with their child concerning the activities of the child. These retrograde actions from spanking to spying and whatever else show that the link of love, care and respect between parent and child has been dropped for any of the myriad reasons there might be, some of genuine inability and but others of pure indolence - and none of these I believe are insurmountable.

That is to digress though. On the subject of the OP, personally speaking, I prefer gentle inquisitiveness as the more subtle approach to finding out what he is into. I still believe I have his confidence. I would like to think that I would know if he is up to something he should not be and but perhaps I am easily duped. Notwithstanding, I feel it is a duty of a parent -as far as they can- to have a reasonable handle on the activities of their child. And as much as I feel it is in general overstepping bounds of appropriateness I would not argue with any particular parents that spy on their children. I just think it is a bad state of affairs that they have let things get to the point where they feel they have to.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Spying on him at that stage will not rectify a situation that I -through my lack of diligent care and gentle direction- have allowed to transpire.

Yes. It. Would.

Presuming you were a parent of one of the Columbine murderers, spying on your child would lead to discovery of bombs, bomb-making equipment, hidden guns, and journals detailing the plans to attack the local school. I don't *care* if it means you've failed as a parent or not, if your child perpetrates a Columbine, you have also failed in your duty to your community. And I'm very concerned about that.

Like I said, wearing the hair shirt *after* something awful happens doesn't restore lives. You have an obligation to know what your child is doing that might endanger lives. Your relationship with them is not important to me. That they might be building bombs or carrying guns, is.

I think this steadfast refusal of parents to accept that they are directly responsible for the actions of their minor children is horrifying. Your relationship with them is important to you and no one else. It is good if you raise them to be responsible adults and good luck with that; I'm sure you will do well. But if they choose the wrong path and do something evil, something you could have detected, because of your refusal to snoop, that is your fault. The blame in such a case would be upon you as well as them. This is my opinion.

 

[granfire]

This is where the rubber hits the road. Only comment I can make is the time is much shorter for preparation. You may begin to lose them as soon as their friends start to make more sense then Mom and Dad.

true. However I was thinking of the legal time frame. After 18 years your rights to snoop are gone. By then you had better found a different way to communicate.
And I think even the 'under my roof' rule does no longer give you the right to snoop then.

 

[granfire]

Yes. It. Would.

Presuming you were a parent of one of the Columbine murderers, spying on your child would lead to discovery of bombs, bomb-making equipment, hidden guns, and journals detailing the plans to attack the local school. I don't *care* if it means you've failed as a parent or not, if your child perpetrates a Columbine, you have also failed in your duty to your community. And I'm very concerned about that.

Like I said, wearing the hair shirt *after* something awful happens doesn't restore lives. You have an obligation to know what your child is doing that might endanger lives. Your relationship with them is not important to me. That they might be building bombs or carrying guns, is.

I think this steadfast refusal of parents to accept that they are directly responsible for the actions of their minor children is horrifying. Your relationship with them is important to you and no one else. It is good if you raise them to be responsible adults and good luck with that; I'm sure you will do well. But if they choose the wrong path and do something evil, something you could have detected, because of your refusal to snoop, that is your fault. The blame in such a case would be upon you as well as them. This is my opinion.

Well, I suppose you are making Jenna's point for her:
Had the parents given a crap prior they might have avoided the need to spy later.

Or if they had cared enough they had noticed.

But it shows, first they don't pay attention to the early warning signs (seems the Columbine guys were not at all shy about their intentions but they are still pretty lonesome on the stage of school shooters even) then they interpret every sneeze as looming doom.

Alas, 9 out of 10 experts are in favor of butt nipping!

 

[seasoned]

I will give you one parenting situation, that I would not call snooping, but perhaps, some would thing wrong of me. In NYS you can get a junior license at 16 yrs old, and that allows you to drive up until dusk. My son, at that time, was spending the night at a friends house with some other guys. I drove by twice that evening, once before dusk "no car", and once after dark "no car". I sat and waited till around 10pm. Car shows up, guys pile out, and I meet them in the driveway. His jaw hit the ground. Taking the keys away from him and telling him his driving days were over, had a humiliating effect on him, as it showed plainly.
Now here is where the parenting comes in, it was 10pm and not 1:am in the morning, and no sent of booze, which was never a problem anyway. I let him stew that night at his friends house, and the next morning he got the keys back.
I had no problem monitoring my kids as they were growing up, but I do have a problem calling it snooping. Monitoring is expected as any good parent should know, and it may be a play on words, but snooping has negative connotations to it.

 

[granfire]

I will give you one parenting situation, that I would not call snooping, but perhaps, some would thing wrong of me. In NYS you can get a junior license at 16 yrs old, and that allows you to drive up until dusk. My son, at that time, was spending the night at a friends house with some other guys. I drove by twice that evening, once before dusk "no car", and once after dark "no car". I sat and waited till around 10pm. Car shows up, guys pile out, and I meet them in the driveway. His jaw hit the ground. Taking the keys away from him and telling him his driving days were over, had a humiliating effect on him, as it showed plainly.
Now here is where the parenting comes in, it was 10pm and not 1:am in the morning, and no sent of booze, which was never a problem anyway. I let him stew that night at his friends house, and the next morning he got the keys back.
I had no problem monitoring my kids as they were growing up, but I do have a problem calling it snooping. Monitoring is expected as any good parent should know, and it may be a play on words, but snooping has negative connotations to it.

Well, there is the secret of the involved parent:
They know.

Sometimes a little birdy tells, sometimes mom or dad just shows up, but they know.
much to the amazement of the kid